Paladin FAQ, Info, And Trade Studies.

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Paladin FAQ, Info, and Trade Studies.
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 Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-12-22 13:04:45
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Some Requiescat play:



Being able to pop these out every 10 seconds with Burtgang OA3 is pretty impressive.

Damage obviously varies with your buffs, but with VW temp item refresh, it's pretty easy to sustain decent damage and an extremely high rate of WS output. I'm enjoying it thoroughly.

Using this set I just threw together (could use improvement):



Definitely a worthy WS if you're a Burtgang/Excal owner. I'd have to work the math a bit more to see if I'd use it instead of CDC with Almace (when ODD is already up obviously).

Also, I'm done with finals, so I'm going to be working on updating the main page for this thread now. Just give me some time..
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 Ifrit.Showmo
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By Ifrit.Showmo 2011-12-23 05:14:17
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Looks great so far; with 5/5 merits put into it & a fairly decent MND/ATK build, it should likely outperform Vorpal Blade (outside Abyssea) & Knights of Round? Also hearing some of these new WS share the same fTP for all hits unlike the standard WS (including the +fTP from sea gorget/element belts). Does Requiescat follow this rule as well? If so, sea gorget/element belt would easily win hands down over +7-8 MND or +20-25 ATK for those slots.

I personally haven't had much time to play around with it (only did some rough mathing), but a friend claims that Requiescat seems to have 100% accuracy for all 5 hits (from his current experience with this WS), similar to how Atonement/Spirits Within has a 100% hit rate. Is there any truth to this? Also, since the damage dealt is similar to Atonement/Spirits Within (non-elemental), I may as well ask, but does double attack/triple attack have any effect?
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By Asura.Mekaider 2011-12-23 05:50:38
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Quick PLD question, when tanking something worth tanking, Ie. Higher tier VW and such, is it better to tp in 4/5af3+2 and zelus tiara or 5/5 for the overall DT/Absorb rate?
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2011-12-23 09:51:29
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Ifrit.Showmo said: »
Looks great so far; with 5/5 merits put into it & a fairly decent MND/ATK build, it should likely outperform Vorpal Blade (outside Abyssea) & Knights of Round? Also hearing some of these new WS share the same fTP for all hits unlike the standard WS (including the +fTP from sea gorget/element belts). Does Requiescat follow this rule as well? If so, sea gorget/element belt would easily win hands down over +7-8 MND or +20-25 ATK for those slots.

I personally haven't had much time to play around with it (only did some rough mathing), but a friend claims that Requiescat seems to have 100% accuracy for all 5 hits (from his current experience with this WS), similar to how Atonement/Spirits Within has a 100% hit rate. Is there any truth to this? Also, since the damage dealt is similar to Atonement/Spirits Within (non-elemental), I may as well ask, but does double attack/triple attack have any effect?
As far as I know, Requiescat hasn't been tested for ftp bonuses carrying across all hits.

I've had the first hit of Requiescat miss, so it doesn't have 100% acc.

I haven't specifically checked for DA/TA procs, but as it's calculated just like normal physical dmg, I'd assume they can proc.

Asura.Mekaider said: »
Quick PLD question, when tanking something worth tanking, Ie. Higher tier VW and such, is it better to tp in 4/5af3+2 and zelus tiara or 5/5 for the overall DT/Absorb rate?
Personally, I wouldn't drop 8% haste, for 1% absorb rate. If I were fighting something nasty enough that my survival was in question, I'd probly go with a PDT/DT helm over AF3 helm anyway.

7 shield skill and 1% absorb doesn't mean much in terms of dmg reduction.
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-12-23 11:26:28
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Well to be fair, I usually consider the AF3+2 helm for the MP restore more than the 2.8% shield block rate increase and added HP..

But ya, for survival, -DT set all the way.

No one should make their gear choices around the pitiful absorb rate from the set bonus..
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By Siren.Kyte 2011-12-23 11:53:43
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »

I haven't specifically checked for DA/TA procs, but as it's calculated just like normal physical dmg, I'd assume they can proc.

There's no reason to even have to assume, given that SE specifically said that they can when discussing their shitty logic of why it should be comparable to Spirits Within and Atonement.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2011-12-23 12:49:33
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Oh, right. They did say that.

I think that whole post was so depressing I just blocked it out. <,<;
 Bahamut.Krizz
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By Bahamut.Krizz 2011-12-23 13:32:48
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Bismarck.Josiahkf said: »
you will love divine emblem then lol especially considering that avatar
I meant to respond to this sooner, but you were right. =D
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By Ifrit.Showmo 2011-12-24 13:01:52
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For Requiescat optimization, I came up with this (Sword/Shield will obviously vary):

Neptune's pearl & centaurus earring seems to add more average damage versus brutal earring for this WS. Neck/Waist piece could vary depending if consecutive hits share the same fTP as the first hit or not, although +10 accuracy from sea gorget/element belt isn't a bad idea either for higher level targets considering this is a five-fold WS. hecatomb subligar +1 would be a nice alternative if you can't get a hold of valkyrie's cuishes.
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By cosmolaris 2011-12-26 22:18:18
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What belts are aligned with req?
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By Quetzalcoatl.Generic 2011-12-27 01:26:54
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Ifrit.Showmo said: »
For Requiescat optimization, I came up with this (Sword/Shield will obviously vary):

Neptune's pearl & centaurus earring seems to add more average damage versus brutal earring for this WS. Neck/Waist piece could vary depending if consecutive hits share the same fTP as the first hit or not, although +10 accuracy from sea gorget/element belt isn't a bad idea either for higher level targets considering this is a five-fold WS. hecatomb subligar +1 would be a nice alternative if you can't get a hold of valkyrie's cuishes.
Off topic but how did you put the 99 version of the weapon/shield in your item set ? lol
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2011-12-27 03:08:58
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You type in the item ID rather then the name when adding items to the set.

To find the item ID, you just take the number from the item page's address.

For example http://www.ffxiah.com/item/19841/excalibur

So 99 excal is 19841.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Generic 2011-12-27 03:12:12
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
You type in the item ID rather then the name when adding items to the set.

To find the item ID, you just take the number from the item page's address.

For example http://www.ffxiah.com/item/19841/excalibur

So 99 excal is 19841.
Thank you! :D
 Ifrit.Showmo
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By Ifrit.Showmo 2011-12-27 03:32:44
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cosmolaris said: »
What belts are aligned with req?
soil gorget, soil belt, shadow gorget, & shadow belt will work for Requiescat.

Quetzalcoatl.Generic said: »
Off topic but how did you put the 99 version of the weapon/shield in your item set ? lol
When adding an item via the "Add Item" field, put the item's ID instead of name to specify the exact item/level you want added. Excalibur (99)'s ID is 19841, while Aegis (99)'s ID is 16200. The ID's are in the page's URL.
 Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-12-27 14:26:52
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Ok, finally took some time and updated the OP.

Comments/additions/fixes are welcome. Mostly just wanted a quick link to spellcast scripts, damage/enmity questions, and some simplified links to our shield skill testing, as well as some gear suggestions.
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By Blazed1979 2012-01-16 04:48:32
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your standard dt set makes me consider quiting... I pump out blood,tears,sweat and constipated kaka for my PLD.

you got d.ring and mekira in there...
I'm 0/500 dring (8 years worth of NOTHING) and 0/250 on Kaggen.

that's "standard set" looks more like "ultimate set"
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By Quetzalcoatl.Generic 2012-01-16 05:02:27
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Magma gauntlets > Melaco yes ? would cap you at 50% PDT - the 16% Burtgang puts you over.
The current DT set you have puts you at 49% with a 6% PDT ring. Minor but an easy upgrade ^.~
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2012-01-16 08:07:19
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I just used Melaco mittens to save inventory space, since they can be used across multiple jobs. If someone has room they should probably split several spots into DT/MDT/PDT, specifically:

Hands -> Melaco -> Magma Gauntlets
Feet -> Askar (2% DT) -> Ogiers (for magic) -> Ruffian/etc (3% PDT)

Same goes for Flume belt versus Nierenschutz, and Shadow Mantle versus Molluscous Mantle or the new Magic damage absorption mantle.
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By Asura.Izilder 2012-01-26 05:04:40
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i know we spoke about SID sets during the thread - just nice to finally see some numbers come out on choral roll

Choral Roll (Decreases spell interruption rate)
Roll Current Effect Value New Effect Value
1 -11 -13
2 -43 -55
3 -14 -17
4 -16 -20
5 -19 -25
6 -5 -8
7 -22 -30
8 -27 -35
9 -30 -40
10 -32 -45
11 -54 -65
Bust +20 +25
Bonus -20 -25
 Ifrit.Showmo
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By Ifrit.Showmo 2012-02-09 09:15:14
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Hey all, I decided to gather some data for level 99 block rates on Even Match mobs, but while in the process of also putting Aegis (99 with Afterglow) to a test run to see if there were any hidden block rate or damage reduction increases added to it as a hidden effect. For those who don't already know, level 99 relics (both afterglow and non afterglow Lv.99 versions) are available on the test server for anyone (including non relic holders) to test out. The Magian Moogle hands them out for free when you view the trial.

Anyway, I'll get the conclusion out of the way now before the data: there was no observed block rate or damage reduction increases found. I figured this was the case since the developers had finally revealed all hidden stats that were placed on relics all the way up to level 99 (link).

It was assumed and parsed that Aegis had received a block rate cap raise from 65% -> 75% (since Aegis' cap parsed at 75%, and it has been assumed for years that the block rate cap was 65%). However, a previous test by Martel using a standard size 3 shield showed that the cap was not 65% (link). So this means that either the block rate cap had always been 75% and the data that claimed the cap to be 65% was inaccurate (by possibly parsing against mobs where block rate was not capped), or the possibility of the block rate cap being changed/lifted after the level cap was raised from Lv.75 (as Martel mentions in his post after testing the block rate caps).

The second assumption based on a past parse was that Aegis had received a damage reduction bonus for the Lv.95 version (the parse reported a 90% damage reduction on blocks). This recent parse I did reports a 85% damage reduction for the Lv.99 Aegis, meaning the previous sample likely had too much defense against the mob, causing damage reduction to overlap and skew the result. Aegis' initial damage reduction for the Lv.75 version was reported as 75%, and I'd assume this has not changed for the Lv.99 version. What has changed though is the "Shield Def. Bonus" job traits, which would likely boost the reduction by +5%-10%, (for a total of 80%-85% reduction), depending on how many trait levels we've acquired since the first trait at Lv.77.

Anyway, I apologize for rambling on, I just thought I should clear things up before I post the data. Without further adieu, here is the parse/data:

My Job/Level: PLD99/WAR49

Shield: Aegis (99, with Afterglow)

Shield Skill: 432

Buffs: Only Cruor Buffs/Regen Atmas

No equipment other than the Shield was used (completely naked). This remained static throughout the entire parse.

Mob: Fear Dearg (Even Match, Lv.99)

Note: When slept with Dream Flower, the parse was paused before taking a hit, then resumed after sleep was removed, as to not skew the results of the data.

Hits: 2,535
Blocks: 1,316
Block Rate: 51.91%

When I plug the data into my previous (rough) shield block rate formula:
Shield_Base_Rate + ((Shield_Skill / 4) - (Mob_Level / 0.5))

With the previous suggested Aegis Shield_Base_Rate of 142:
142 + ((432 / 4) - (99 / 0.5))
142 + ((108) - (198))
142 + (-90)
52% Block Rate

Difference: 0.09%

The formula seems to function properly at player Lv.99. I would hypothesize that the block rate formula changes at certain mob or player level ranges, similarly how the formulas change for accuracy calculation and other related formulas such as skill cap formulas (link).

This unusual formula change can be observed between the following two parses:
Post #1
Post #2

In post #1, you can see that as a PLD10/WAR05 with the Shield Skill of 35, block rate parsed at 35.08% against a Lv.20 mob.
But then if you look at post #2, the same level PLD10/WAR05 with the same Shield Skill of 35 parsed at a 37.49% block rate against a Lv.10 mob. Usually a 10 level difference would change block rate by a more significant amount such as 20%, but this was obviously not the case.

Parse Data
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 Bahamut.Krizz
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By Bahamut.Krizz 2012-02-09 09:40:18
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Yay, more PLD math!
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2012-02-09 20:33:08
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This seems like a good time to post this, as it's related to Showmo's post anyway.

Aegis tests

So, I got an Aegis! And what do I do with it first? Test it! This is mostly covering old ground. The most notable thing about this test set, is that it's the first instance(that I know of) of Aegis 75~95 tests where the PLD's lvl, and the test mob's, have remained static.

The PLD's lvl going up with the shield's lvl can cause some confusion as to whether Aegis' DMG- improved, or Shield defense bonus did.

Anyway. Going with my usual test conditions. IT Mourning Crawlers, *Assumed lvl* 105. 99 PLD/DNC. Used 49% PDT. Because it's hard to gather data when you're dead. Prior tests have shown the same SBDT results with and without PDT gear, when taking the high lvls of per hit dmg these mobs deal.

Parse data will be in the following post, due to sheer volume.
Code
Aegis	75		80		85		90		95
Block%	43.39%	43.54%	43.33%	42.36%	43.49%
SBDT*	-81.1%	-81.1%	-80.9%	-81.1%	-81.1%

* Shield Block DMG taken-

No notable changes from Aegis75 to 95. But we now have a huge amount of data showing Aegis at 81.1% BDT.

Comparing this to showmo's 99 Aegis test we have a 3.9% BDT difference.

Now, there are two possibilities here. Either SE broke the current pattern, and actually boosted Aegis SBDT, or there are issues with the SBDT portion of Showmo's test.

After entering Showmo's parse data into my shield spreadsheet, the SBDT value returned as 92.4%. I'm not certain how we're getting such different value's from the same data, But I have serious doubts about SE giving that kinda boost to Aegis 99.

Before deciding that Aegis99 received any physical bonuses, I'd recommend a retest on much harder hitting mobs. Low per hit dmg makes the SBDT value jump. I have a gleaming shield test on EM Fear Dearg, that shows 84% SBDT. Whereas the Mourning crawler test Shows 71%.

Really, I just need to get on the test server already. 99 Ochain needs testing. <,<

Shield Defense Bonus and SBDT break down.

Now that we're done leveling up, and traits should remain the same, I wanted to nail down a precise value for shield defense bonus.

This is my proposed break down of Block dmg reduction.
Code
			Base	ViaDef	SDB		Total	Parsed value
Ochain90	40%		20%		6.10%	66.10%	66.10%
Aegis95		55%		20%		6.10%	81.10%	81.10%
Gleaming	50%		15.50%	6.10%	71.60%	71.45%
Weathering	50%		18%		6.10%	74.10%	74.05%


While a 6.1 SDB value is a bit smaller than I expected, it fits very well with the breakdown for the kite shields(the only shield size with a previously known base dmg-). I'd have left the .1 off and just called it 6.0, but that .1 shows up in far to many parses to ignore.

I feel reasonably confident in the bases for Ochain and Aegis. the totals match up well, and the base values are neat, logical numbers. The only value that's a bit odd would be the SDB itself. But that could be due to the tiered nature of the trait. And since the distribution matches using the kite shield values as well, I'm inclined to call the SDB value accurate.

Creed Gauntlets +2, SDB enhancement

I do not understand these damn things...

My initial tests way back when had them at 3% SDB(tested with Ochain. Recently, I retested them with various shields. As I was curious if the value varied by shield type and/or current SDB trait. The results are... odd.
Code
Creed hands tests
			W/O		With	Diff
Ochain90	66.1%	69.1%	3.0%
Aegis95		81.1%	82.5%	1.46%
Gleaming	71.4%	73.0%	1.64%
Weathering	74.0%	75.7%	1.73%


So my Ochain numbers are re-confirmed, but everything else is substantially lower than I expected. And I've no idea why.

I'm confident in the accuracy of the Ochain and Aegis test values though. Ochain tests had over 10k hits total(2 parses). Aegis tests had 34k hits(4 parses. 2 creed, 2 non.)

My best theory atm(which still ain't so great) is that the bonus from creed varies based on shield dmg reduction. The lower the dmg reduction, the higher the bonus.

The issue with this, is that weathering had a higher creed bonus than gleaming, even though weathering has higher dmg-. It's a small enough difference that it could be variance. Needs more testing, but I'm not sure I'm going to mess with it anymore. There's just not really a good model explaining this.

I guess the important thing is the order for dmg reduction hands.

For Ochain, Magma, Creed, Melaco. Creed over Melaco due to higher def/vit(and set bonus). Creed hands would only be best if you were capping PDT(or very close) before hands.

Then for Aegis/other shields Magma, Melaco, creed. With the same capped PDT caveat.

So, if you had Magma already, nothing's really changed.

That's all for now. If I ever get on the test server, I'll get some 99 tests. But I really don't wanna go through anymore payment system related BS.

Edit. Using BDT for block damage taken, bad idea. Breath dmg taken... could cause confusion. Changed to SBDT. Shield Block Damage Taken
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 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2012-02-09 20:33:25
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Parse data

Aegis Tests

SDB tests

Creed Hands tests
 Ifrit.Showmo
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By Ifrit.Showmo 2012-02-09 22:51:59
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Congratz on the Aegis! Big thanks for covering all Aegis shield levels (75-95) in testing. We can for sure confirm that Aegis doesn't receive any special bonuses throughout the Magian upgrades other than extra MDT & Shield Bash damage. It's kind of disappointing to be honest, considering relic weapons received both Attack/DMG increases plus extra hidden effect boosts, while Aegis only received a MDT/Shield Bash damage increase.

Regarding Aegis (99, Afterglow)'s damage reduction, my parse likely results in a 85%-90%+ damage reduction due to the low damage taken per hit (causing the reduction samples to overlap). If I parsed a sample on harder hitting mobs such as an Incredibly Tough Mourning Crawler, I'm certain our results will match up for Aegis (99)'s damage reduction.

If there was a hidden increase in blocked damage reduction though, I believe the developers would have listed it in this post: link, where they reveal all hidden effects relic equipment possesses. So it's safe to say that any extra damage reduction reported above 75% for Aegis is either from the Shield Def. Bonus trait or a low-ranged damage hitting sample (such as my Fear Dearg parse).

BG Wiki currently has the latest tier of Shield Def. Bonus reported at -7% (link), so I'd say your -6.1% value is pretty accurate. I wonder if the results would be any different if damage taken was a bit higher, and without PDT. We might be able to nail down Creed hands if so. Would likely need a PL though since MP & survival may become an issue.

Also your damage reduction chart is exactly how I imagine the reduction on shields as well, with 0.5% of shield's defense going to the reduction, that only leaves the shield's base reduction to figure out, which is simple subtraction from the shield's defense reduction result with the current known total reduction.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2012-02-09 23:36:42
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Thanks. Its nice to finally have both the awesome shields.

The Creed hands data on that page is based on some of my older testing, iirc. XD

About testing on mourning crawlers. You'd probly be ok, with one IT crawler. But you would want to use gear(PDT, ethereal, etc. But still not swap any gear.) And /DNC is a huge help in surviving. Even with PDT gear, these guys hit hard enough for good SBDT samples.

For my tests, I kill or depop crawlers till I get 3 IT ones. And I do have a well geared WHM alt to regen/cure bomb me. They don't sleep you, or do anything that could skew block data. They just beat the hell outta you. <,<

Has anyone tested Aegis/Ochain Afterglow properties? SE's post didn't note the potency of the effect, or if it can break caps.
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2012-02-09 23:54:00
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I wouldn't really use the fact that they listed hidden boost to relic in that link as evidence dispositive of no change to Aegis Showmo, but rather just evidence supporting that conclusion.

My reasoning is that the changes to the weapons were a bit more systematic (changing ftp modifiers, increasing severe damage procs, actual stat changes).

I appreciate all the data you both compiled and congrats to Martel on his new Shiny. Really odd data variances though..
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2012-02-10 00:13:00
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Phoenix.Neosutra said: »
Really odd data variances though..

Which ones, specifically? If you suspect any errors, or see something odd, let me know.

Errors are always possible. Whether it be on data entry, or issues with the tests themselves.
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2012-02-10 08:26:06
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Meant between Showmo and your data in damage reduction %.

That and the SDB tests.

Also, I'd suspect that the cap was never 65%, just that people assumed they were capped block rate on lower mobs, back before we knew just how incredibly hard it is to actually cap block rate, even on mobs much lower than you.
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