Announcing The July Version Update |
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Announcing the July Version Update
Ragnarok.Martel said: » Not even HELM NMs are going to floor Ochain block rate. Not that you get to use Ochain on many of them. But facts are facts. CL155 mobs when Ochain was already getting low at CL145 and the power gained between 145 and 155 is greater then 119 and 145. Stupid scaling system. Asura.Avallon said: » Don't take my away! Erasega wouldn't do anything to Yagrush. Erase already has an annoyingly long recast and Erasega would have one somewhere around ~30s. Yagrush would in effect have two separate erasega timers along with AoE Erase II. The point is to allow non-Yagrush WHM's to be viable while still giving Yagrush an edge. As for Haste fix's, make the higher tier of BRD songs scale to 900 skill and have much higher caps. Right now GEO is just utterly ridiculously better then all other support jobs. Fury's 48.2% attack increase eclipses anything BRD or COR could hope to do, then Fraily's 28.3% unresistable defense down equates to more attack then that overpowered Fury gives when stacked with something as simple as Dia II. Fury and Frailty + Dia II would be 100 * 1.482 * (100/61.7) = 240 or 140% attack increase. That 900 skill Dunna GEO now better then a REMA BRD or COR. Entrust Indi-Haste is 29.9% which when stacked with regular Haste is magic haste cap. So the solution is to make BRD at least the same in overall power level. Raising the caps on Minuet / Madrigal / March to be much higher.
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Asura.Saevel said: » Ragnarok.Martel said: » Not even HELM NMs are going to floor Ochain block rate. Not that you get to use Ochain on many of them. But facts are facts. CL155 mobs when Ochain was already getting low at CL145 and the power gained between 145 and 155 is greater then 119 and 145. Stupid scaling system. Next time I do a HELM NM with Ochain on, I'll be sure to parse block rate. Ragnarok.Martel said: » Asura.Saevel said: » Ragnarok.Martel said: » Not even HELM NMs are going to floor Ochain block rate. Not that you get to use Ochain on many of them. But facts are facts. CL155 mobs when Ochain was already getting low at CL145 and the power gained between 145 and 155 is greater then 119 and 145. Stupid scaling system. Next time I do a HELM NM with Ochain on, I'll be sure to parse block rate. Please parse just the NM and not the legion of adds. Also this is after +Block from gear and Reprisal while I was referring to the base block rate from (shield skill + shield bonus vs enemy skill). Level 126 rabbit had ~70% OChain base block rate. Assuming shields works similiar as parry, (Skill + Block Bonus vs Enemy Skill) a floor of 5, and then +Block is added with Reprisal being a 1.5 multiplier. OChain just has a huge *** +Block Bonus. I've seen PLD's with great gear get absolutely destroyed with OChain on, they didn't block ***. A CL155 NM would be 29 levels above that Rabbit. Base block rate might be above floor but not by a whole lot. Monsters seem to gain ~35 evasion/defense per level after level 125 (lowest I've seen data for), so the other two stats should see similiar scaling as well. If shield skill is compared to the monsters "attack skill" which is the source of it's attack, then it should see a rapidly diminishing base block rate after ~130 because there simply isn't the +shield skill gear in the game to compensate. CL135 ~ 1400 Evasion CL145 ~ 1750 Evasion CL155 ~ 2100 Evasion Albumen and whatnots are level 150, adds are 147. There isn't anything in the game right now higher than that.
edit: Asura.Ladyofhonor said: » Fenrir.Nightfyre said: » Yeah, I still think better distribution of magic haste sources would go a long way for easing issues with party composition/buffs right now. Haste II for WHM/SCH when? Well, I actually made a suggestion for haste 3 for RDM. But I've also heard there's no room for new magic spells or something, so they'd need to effectively buff Haste 2 to 45%, and thinking just buff Haste to 30% values. Or maybe 22% or something. This makes SMN and RDM able to fully haste cap on their own and I think would open up some party config options. The "no new spells" thing was about creating original animations and sounds if I remember right. Alternatively, having Haste II/Hastega II scale with Enhancing/Summoning skill would be a simple way to add Haste(ga) III. I wasn't tanking the adds on Albumen, so that wouldn't have skewed my perception of it. Not that I could eyeball a 3 level difference in anycase. Thank you Braden, btw.
When I parse, I'll be sure to have various data sets. Adds, no add, etc. Anyway, Some block rate data from a friend. Parses were filtered, so none if this is from adds. Quote: Block rate is 77% on Erinys with nearly fulltime Reprisal Assuming Palisade was up 20% of the time and he has +11 block gear (I think he uses Nixxer), then he probably is around 71% with no Palisade, 60% with no block gear, so 40% base. Erin was 204 blocks and 62 nonblocks Also 65% block rate on Onycho with Reprisal only on half the time. Onycho was 214 blocks, 111 nonblocks Not even close to floored. well, unless you think 35% off is close. Block rate definitely took a significant hit. It's the lowest Ochain block rate I've ever seen. But by no means is it floored. And with Reprisal/Palisade, block+ gear, and skill+ gear, reasonable block rates can be attained. This also shows me that I wasn't nearly as close to capped as I thought. But that's always the problem with eyeballed results. It's actually kinda interesting. SE has previously stated that Ochain had a Block rate equivalent* to an ilvl 150 shield. And on a 150 mob, it has roughly the base block rate you'd have expected from a size 3 shield vs an even match mob back at 99. <,< *just one of my pet peeves. They did not say Ochain was ilvl 150... they said it had a block rate equivalent to ilvl 150. Anyway, I'll get some of my own parse data next time I do a HELM NM.
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Meet the July version update same as the June update more mediocrity
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Ragnarok.Martel said: » Block rate definitely took a significant hit. It's the lowest Ochain block rate I've ever seen. But by no means is it floored. And with Reprisal/Palisade, block+ gear, and skill+ gear, reasonable block rates can be attained. This also shows me that I wasn't nearly as close to capped as I thought. But that's always the problem with eyeballed results. It's actually kinda interesting. SE has previously stated that Ochain had a Block rate equivalent* to an ilvl 150 shield. And on a 150 mob, it has roughly the base block rate you'd have expected from a size 3 shield vs an even match mob back at 99. <,< *just one of my pet peeves. They did not say Ochain was ilvl 150... they said it had a block rate equivalent to ilvl 150. Anyway, I'll get some of my own parse data next time I do a HELM NM. Much better info thanks. Which makes me scratch when compared to the previous 70% base on 126 yet capped on 100 mobs. How could it's base lose 30% from that gap but not even more from a bigger jump in power level. Another question is what's the highest level normal monster in the game? Might make for some decent testing on base block rate scaling. The highest level normal mobs that I'm aware of, are some of the Apex mobs. The bats in inner Rakaznar can reach lvl 139.
I think I might have a parse on those actually.. not sure if it was the 139 or 137/138 ones though. I'll have to dig around for it later.
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Asura.Saevel said: » Which makes me scratch when compared to the previous 70% base on 126 yet capped on 100 mobs. How could it's base lose 30% from that gap but not even more from a bigger jump in power level. Another question is what's the highest level normal monster in the game? Might make for some decent testing on base block rate scaling. Keep in mind they could be artificially pumping up the strength of NMs through means other than just combat skill. For example, I remember Martel was surprised at Aegis' ~50% blockrate on VD BCs. Turned out they're just level 99 monsters with inflated stats. Assuming a constant +7 skill per level past 99, the estimated Ochain block rate on a level 150 monster would be 41% based on .215%/skill. Ragnarok.Flippant said: » Assuming a constant +7 skill per level past 99, the estimated Ochain block rate on a level 150 monster would be 41% based on .215%/skill. Well we already know the +skill gain rate of players is 13 ~ 13.5 per level past 100. Enemies gain 35 evasion / defense per level past 100. But yeah we have no idea how exactly SE is mechanically implementing these. It's why I really like to see actual Player X vs Monster Y tests so get an idea on what the loss rate is per level increase of the monster. Also I was specifically talking about high level Escha NM's because I knew BCNM's are really wonky now. Martel's tested 64.63% against 133 and one of us tested 55.55% against 139. Which also lines up with around +7 combat skill per level. Which would also estimate a 72.81% block rate on level 126 monsters (since you brought that up earlier).
Asura.Saevel said: » Ragnarok.Flippant said: » Assuming a constant +7 skill per level past 99, the estimated Ochain block rate on a level 150 monster would be 41% based on .215%/skill. Well we already know the +skill gain rate of players is 13 ~ 13.5 per level past 100. Enemies gain 35 evasion / defense per level past 100. But yeah we have no idea how exactly SE is mechanically implementing these. It's why I really like to see actual Player X vs Monster Y tests so get an idea on what the loss rate is per level increase of the monster. Also I was specifically talking about high level Escha NM's because I knew BCNM's are really wonky now. Acc/atk/eva, etc are all influenced by other factors which can make it difficult to isolate the contribution from combat skill. STR lends to atk, traits, random mob bonuses. There's all kinds of crap. But block rates are based entirely on 2 controllable factors(player shield skill and shield size) and one unknown. Monster combat skill. This being the case, the block rates we're seeing strongly indicate that monster skill gained per level remains at +7 per level. Or else we might well be looking at that floored blockrate. An alternative possibility, is that rather than changing the skill per level, SE adjusted the skill to /atk/acc/eva ratio. Perhaps mobs above 100 are getting 1.1 atk/skill, or 1.2 and so on. it'd certainly make sense considering the freaking silly evasion higher tier mobs have... Ragnarok.Martel said: » Perhaps mobs above 100 are getting 1.1 atk/skill, or 1.2 and so on. it'd certainly make sense considering the freaking silly evasion higher tier mobs have... Of course there is the possibility that whatever scaling is in place is completely redone, as opposed to just toning it down a bit. Haste scaling with enhancing/summoning would be quite viable for improving magic haste spread. I'd like to see marches scale better, too. And for that matter, give minuets %based attack rather than flat. BRD has become a punchline because of how absurdly behind other buffers they are now. Improving them would go a long way to improving non-BLU DDs.
I'd actually leave Minuets as flat attack since every other buff is attack%. Should still be boosted though.
Sylph.Braden said: » I'd actually leave Minuets as flat attack since every other buff is attack%. Should still be boosted though. Yeah something really big like +200 for the highest tier, +60 accuracy / +30% Haste, stuff like that. Long as they get a boost. I legitimately have not used a BRD in a melee party for at least a year and a half because GEO is just better in every way.
Well GEO + Honor March BRD is pretty broken when using 2H melee. But a BRD can't legitimately replace that GEO.
Keep it civil.
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Siren.Sandraa said: » This information its amazing. My last 3 groups only used PLD. In Every Single Pug-Shout i joined PLD its always the main tank. Well not even O.Chain PLD. Burtang / Aeigis onry. In fact RUN its a job was ignored since day one, before i quit 2 years ago i never saw a RUN MT stuff like Delve Bosses, Nakuals, High Tier Delve NMS. So being realistic. RUN can take LV135 Unity NMS? RUN can tank Escha Low - High Tier with ADDS included? I feel a bit surprised Savael say a Naked RUN its on pair of Aeigis PLD. -50% Damage taken reduction its a joke to get in this days, adding -45% Magic damage taken II Aeigis and Burtang i find this HARD to beat. Most of the people i know put RUN at level of NIN at lv75. Can tank trash content but if you ask a RUN tank duke vepar, Super Kirin, Maju, Neak, Teles Or Zerde Burtang/Aeigis is the only trustable tank. I may try give a shot RUN after read this two pages! More than half of the NM you listed are actually easier RUN tanking targets, some doesn't even need a real tank....IMO 6 man woc, schah, vinipata are what seperates good run from bad ones.
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I tanked kouryu/maju on my sunday run, career run will have no problem tanking most bad boys in this game.
I've tanked Kirin on RUN and I'm NOT a career RUN, I just play the job. ***'s easy.
I've tanked all the HELM's except Erinys and that's because I'm not on RUN for that fight.
Nowadays everything dangerous is magic and RUN just laughs at that while dramatically increasing the alliances damage.
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Siren.Sandraa said: » Most of the people i know put RUN at level of NIN at lv75. Can tank trash content but if you ask a RUN tank duke vepar, Super Kirin, Maju, Neak, Teles Or Zerde Burtang/Aeigis is the only trustable tank. How many 75 cap NMs can you name besides AV and PW that were never successfully tanked by a NIN? I've tanked half those NMs on my RUN at one point or another, and you're completely neglecting the fact that PUP is arguably better than either from a pure tanking standpoint in some of those fights. Seriously, Burt/Aegis for Duke Vepar... You don't even need a real healer for that fight, why would you need a Burt PLD? I saw JPs kill Teles quite easily on Sunday using 2 RUNs to tank.
Also lol@Duke Vepar needing Burt/Aegis |
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