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 Ragnarok.Inx
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By Ragnarok.Inx 2017-05-10 11:55:29
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As I expected, the schadenfreude is almost as delicious as the irony that the people crying nerf the hardest are the ones fuelling the SMN hype bandwagon most strongly.

You guys really should spend more time focussing on what you're doing and less hand-wringing over what other "lesser" players are up to.
 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2017-05-10 11:59:18
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Asura.Frod said: »
Lakshmi.Byrth said: »
None of the things you listed male SMN superior to any other job


Several of them do, or at the very least put them on par with other current viable tactics, so nothing makes smn actively terrible at any of it.

Only exclusions are certain htbf and certain months ambuscade.

Dont know why you even listed 75/99 content, its disingenuous to your argument.

I tried to list everything people currently do in game. All content that people are choosing their job before they head out to do.

Compared to pretty much any other similarly geared melee, SMN is as good or worse at all of the thing I listed in that first group. None of the examples you gave contradicted that, because they're all pretty normal. For instance, closes skillchains in SR? You could use it for that, or you could use any other melee, or you could solo the entire run on BLU, or you could use a SC+MB strategy. SMN isn't better than the alternatives. 10 minute (necessarily 3-man) Yorcia Delve? Well sound the celebratory bells because you just barely beat a 2015 skillchain spamming SAM's clear time.

I get that you like SMN, but I have many jobs geared well and SMN really isn't a very strong DD unless AC is active. Even if you average AC over 45 minutes of SMN DPS, I'm not sure if it's above or below a job like Monk in the DD hierarchy. It's definitely no BLU, DNC, THF, DRK, WAR, 3P RNG, etc.





As far as the simplicity of the strategy:
1. Buff with SAM and DRK rolls, Honor March, Mad x2, and as many carols/barspells as you need to resist bad status effects, then drop your buffers.
2. Pop NM.
3. Tank acquires hate while GEO does bolster frailty/vex and dia2, with an attunement and w/e else in each party.
4. Deal with the single unique mechanic that the NM has (ex. use steadfast tonic vs. ouryu)
5. Use WSs until the monster dies

There's a strategy in the same level of detail for any generic melee x3~4, GEO x3, PLD, WHM x1~2, BRD x1~2, COR setup. The main difference between SMN setups and melee setups are the higher DPS of a SMN AC zerg and the lack of buffs required. We've never been able to efficiently buff avatars, which means we need fewer players to make SMN strategies work. If they lower the DPS of conduit somehow (give BPs a 10 second recast and make conduit last a minute), it would really address a lot of these issues.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-05-10 12:01:44
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Byrth only use's SMN for easily AC zerging the hardest content. If it's not something he'll AC zerg he goes DNC or whatever other job he wants to *** around on.

Giant indicator right there it's broke as ***.
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 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-05-10 12:08:45
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No offense, but that strategy is nowhere near the same level of detail. Leaving out crucial information doesn't make it no longer required. One could successfully AC zerg everything with just the information I posted and appropriate jobs.

-You need to consider potential party swaps to prebuff. Might seem simple, but especially in the case of dual melee parties it's not something a pickup will usually manage easily without planning.

-You need to have (an) active attentive healer(s), many of these monsters can kill DD in a matter of seconds. Albumen's HP down followed by a single attack round or bad counter round on a dual wielder is a dead DD. If you're meleeing schah, WHM needs to be on high alert the entire fight.

-You need to manage enmity(not as big an issue on all of them, but RNGs will pull hate on schah adds or after banneret, hate resets on albumen will bounce hate around).

-You need to manage debuffs (often in excessive amounts).

This means every member of the party needs to be present, attentive, and making minimal errors for 3-30 minutes depending on the mob and your group.

Not only that, but your strategy requires a significant amount of outside buffers. To do it with the same amount of people as a SMN burn strategy would require a huge amount more gear, attention, and player ability.. in some cases, not even possible. You're looking at 50% more to double the amount of players.

Let's not forget that you're explaining to people who already know what they're doing. If you give someone returning from 75 those directions, even if they had every bit of gear and job selection available, I would certainly not expect a win. Even current players who have yet to touch T4 aren't going to win based on those instructions.
 Bismarck.Dekusutaa
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By Bismarck.Dekusutaa 2017-05-10 12:17:14
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Just as a point of refernce. Ive seen non nirvana smns bandwagon. While they are useful where adding a marginal player is cost less (filling slots in 18 man parties, omen alliance) the gulf in power between a smn with ok gear and a smn with 500-600 mil to 1 billion gil invested plus months and years of playing the job is noticeable.

Some of the discussion seems to equate +1 geared vana smn as the standard. Far from it. And id really want to see an argument where players who spent the time to get the mythic and grinding other content for gear and specialized equip sets must be nerfed to br below other dps jobs.

Note that im keeping ac burn as a separate issue because it is.
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By Chyula 2017-05-10 12:23:39
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Nerf the Rolls and pet food, I don't see bst and smn can do much ***without the rolls and food. you know what, nerf yag too. its a crime to na multiple party member each cast. I don't see ppl complaining a super drk or war murder ambu VD every 2 mins or less and do it continuously without the need resetting 1hr, because ppl find an easy way to kill doesn't mean it is stuffed down your throat to join the party.
 Bahamut.Tychefm
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By Bahamut.Tychefm 2017-05-10 12:29:00
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Nerf Leg Sweep !
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 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2017-05-10 12:33:54
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I actually don't use AC SMN to zerg content and my Aeonic clears only used SMN or /SMN for Mewing Lullaby.

I have used AC SMN once in an outside party for extra damage to help others get a Vinipata clears, but I'm done farming Aeonics. I helped the same group with Teles using... THF, I think. There was no part of me that thought, "THF? Why don't I go SMN instead so we won't be able to Larceny away Invincible or kill it before it SPs?"

We basically use the strategy I listed above to kill everything but Zerde, worm, and Erinys. We used THF/SAMs with Mewing Lullaby to kill worm and erinys (You want to talk about exploits? How about that?) and typical stunlock + fire SC + MB mage setups to kill Zerde.
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 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-05-10 12:36:32
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
-You need to have (an) active attentive healer(s)...This means every member of the party needs to be present, attentive, and making minimal errors for 3-30 minutes depending on the mob and your group.

I find this flawed since you multi-box all, most, as low as a third of your linkshell.

In your case, every strategy might be as simple as:
1) Load appropriate luas
2) Pop mob
3) Alt+tab or check screen to ensure things are running correctly
4) Adjust as necessary
5) Collect loot

I'd like to think we can all agree that neither strategy is so brainless as any other. But, in the event that fingers are pointed, don't neglect to look in any mirrors.
 Fenrir.Richybear
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By Fenrir.Richybear 2017-05-10 12:54:11
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If SE really wanted to troll, they'd do this instead

- Leave mechanics as-is
- Make Aeonics only obtainable by the job you got the KI for.

I mean, they have a check in place so you can't brew your wins, right? I'm sure they can somehow have a way to check like "Oh, Richy is working on making Godhands (lol) but in a party of 18 SMNs. Make it so the win(s) don't count towards the progress until he's punching ***in the dink on MNK."
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 Fenrir.Ramzus
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By Fenrir.Ramzus 2017-05-10 12:58:06
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god
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-05-10 12:58:21
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Bismarck.Dekusutaa said: »
Just as a point of refernce. Ive seen non nirvana smns bandwagon. While they are useful where adding a marginal player is cost less (filling slots in 18 man parties, omen alliance) the gulf in power between a smn with ok gear and a smn with 500-600 mil to 1 billion gil invested plus months and years of playing the job is noticeable.

Some of the discussion seems to equate +1 geared vana smn as the standard. Far from it. And id really want to see an argument where players who spent the time to get the mythic and grinding other content for gear and specialized equip sets must be nerfed to br below other dps jobs.

Note that im keeping ac burn as a separate issue because it is.

You realize that to even be considered for end game DDs must have a REMA already. Nirvana as a requirement is a joke. Just shows how broke AC is, non REMA bandwagon walmart SMNs destroying blinged billion geared DDs.
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-05-10 13:05:54
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Bismarck.Dekusutaa said: »
Just as a point of refernce. Ive seen non nirvana smns bandwagon. While they are useful where adding a marginal player is cost less (filling slots in 18 man parties, omen alliance) the gulf in power between a smn with ok gear and a smn with 500-600 mil to 1 billion gil invested plus months and years of playing the job is noticeable.

Some of the discussion seems to equate +1 geared vana smn as the standard. Far from it. And id really want to see an argument where players who spent the time to get the mythic and grinding other content for gear and specialized equip sets must be nerfed to br below other dps jobs.

Note that im keeping ac burn as a separate issue because it is.

You realize that to even be considered for end game DDs must have a REMA already. Nirvana as a requirement is a joke. Just shows how broke AC is, non REMA bandwagon walmart SMNs destroying blinged billion geared DDs.

This isn't true either. It has been a recent discussion that the T2 Reisen greatsword is actually better than Rag. There are many examples of the T2 drops (when properly augmented) doing better than some or all REMAs. So SMNs doing well with Grio isn't imbalanced...
 Bismarck.Dekusutaa
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By Bismarck.Dekusutaa 2017-05-10 13:24:32
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Grio with good augs or Was SMN can do fine physical dmg. Grio is also bis for nuking for smn right now.

But nothing touches nirvana for the bp boost and +2 avatar levels for physical especially now that we know physical bps are also tied to avatar attributes like dex str and int
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-05-10 14:09:18
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Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
-You need to have (an) active attentive healer(s)...This means every member of the party needs to be present, attentive, and making minimal errors for 3-30 minutes depending on the mob and your group.

I find this flawed since you multi-box all, most, as low as a third of your linkshell.

In your case, every strategy might be as simple as:
1) Load appropriate luas
2) Pop mob
3) Alt+tab or check screen to ensure things are running correctly
4) Adjust as necessary
5) Collect loot

I'd like to think we can all agree that neither strategy is so brainless as any other. But, in the event that fingers are pointed, don't neglect to look in any mirrors.
I 6boxed black and white using no automation besides autora. Not only that, it was the first non-JP win. Most of my first wins are primarily manual, because it's just plain impractical to automate every aspect a complicated fight where dozens of different things could go wrong. I have 2 2560x1440 monitors so every character(all 800x600) is visible and quickly accessible at all times, and probably have a better idea of the overall state of any fight at any time than any other player or multiboxer.

While it'd be lying to say I don't use automation tools, hinging your argument on personal attacks when you don't even know me is quite a stretch. I can say for sure that if I were using SMN, every fight would be as simple as hitting a single button on a single application though.

Setting all that aside, you just compared smn to a theoretically 100% botted fight. That certainly doesn't set the standard for 'fair and balanced'.

Quote:
This isn't true either. It has been a recent discussion that the T2 Reisen greatsword is actually better than Rag. There are many examples of the T2 drops (when properly augmented) doing better than some or all REMAs. So SMNs doing well with Grio isn't imbalanced...
Neither is getting the invite where high end fights with established groups are concerned. There'll be a ukon/calad/masa user ready to step up.
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By Pantafernando 2017-05-10 15:06:53
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About Tachi: Ageha and its def down effect.

Quote:
Hi, there!

It's true that the accuracy seems to be low regarding the effect.
The dev. team will be looking into this!

Thanks for your feedback.
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 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-05-10 15:12:36
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Nah, my argument was more akin to "It can go both ways."

You oversimplified a strategy. Someone else posted an oversimplification of another strategy. You cried foul, saying only strategies that require "every member of the party needs to be present, attentive, and making minimal errors for 3-30 minutes depending on the mob and your group."

At this point, I stated that every member of your party is, by your own statements, just you. One person can't be fully attentive to multiple toons. You can certainly be attentive to multiple toons, but not "present, attentive" by any stretch of the imagination.

I did not compare a SMN strat to full-automation. I was just saying before you judge another strategy, in this case, those that use SMNs, consider your own strategy, use of automation.

It can go both ways.
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2017-05-10 15:16:32
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
hinging your argument on personal attacks when you don't even know me is quite a stretch.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-05-10 15:35:34
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I really don't see where I oversimplified the SMN strategy. Do I need to list every single action done by the RUN? There's not any more to it than that.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-05-10 17:30:33
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
-You need to have (an) active attentive healer(s)...This means every member of the party needs to be present, attentive, and making minimal errors for 3-30 minutes depending on the mob and your group.

I find this flawed since you multi-box all, most, as low as a third of your linkshell.

In your case, every strategy might be as simple as:
1) Load appropriate luas
2) Pop mob
3) Alt+tab or check screen to ensure things are running correctly
4) Adjust as necessary
5) Collect loot

I'd like to think we can all agree that neither strategy is so brainless as any other. But, in the event that fingers are pointed, don't neglect to look in any mirrors.
I 6boxed black and white using no automation besides autora. Not only that, it was the first non-JP win. Most of my first wins are primarily manual, because it's just plain impractical to automate every aspect a complicated fight where dozens of different things could go wrong. I have 2 2560x1440 monitors so every character(all 800x600) is visible and quickly accessible at all times, and probably have a better idea of the overall state of any fight at any time than any other player or multiboxer.

While it'd be lying to say I don't use automation tools, hinging your argument on personal attacks when you don't even know me is quite a stretch. I can say for sure that if I were using SMN, every fight would be as simple as hitting a single button on a single application though.

Setting all that aside, you just compared smn to a theoretically 100% botted fight. That certainly doesn't set the standard for 'fair and balanced'.

Quote:
This isn't true either. It has been a recent discussion that the T2 Reisen greatsword is actually better than Rag. There are many examples of the T2 drops (when properly augmented) doing better than some or all REMAs. So SMNs doing well with Grio isn't imbalanced...
Neither is getting the invite where high end fights with established groups are concerned. There'll be a ukon/calad/masa user ready to step up.

What I thought was funny was them thinking that needing a Mythic for SMN makes it ultra hardcore. Like ... *** please every DD in the game knows you need to get a legendary weapon just to be invited to VD Ambuscade or T2+ Reisen ***. Need REMA and some of the best DD gear in the game to get invites to ~some~ of the T4's, well the invites that used to happen, now everything is just SMN onry.

You can see it on any server, just watch the T2+ shouts and everything is "need SMN". No bother geared or playing any other DD job, SMN is all you need for everything. Which is why everyone knows it's broken.
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-05-10 17:51:21
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It isn't happening on Fenrir. Trying to bolster your position with lies doesn't bolster your position... We don't all agree it is broken. And maybe you aren't being invited for other reasons...
 Sylph.Dravidian
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By Sylph.Dravidian 2017-05-10 18:25:51
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Quote:
Is Bigfoot Real? Emerging Scientific Evidence
Is Bigfoot real? A better question would be why has mainstream science failed to put the question to the test?

Science is duty bound by definition to explain the unexplained, yet in 2016 some people are still debating its existence rather than examining emerging scientific evidence. Some of this evidence has emerged from unexpected places.

One of these places is Mount St. Helens in Washington State, U.S.A, where in 2013 and 2014 I along with one of my former college students located three different ungulate rib prey bone assemblages (elk and deer rib bones) that had seemingly inexplicable chewing marks left in them.

We conducted a two year Zooarcheological field research project, which culminated March 26, 2016 at the 69th Annual Anthropological Research Conference, where I presented our conclusions to a room full of respected academic and governmental anthropologists and archeologists.

Tooth and Bite Marks

I presented data in the form of incisor, molar and pre-molar dental signature evidence that we were able to very carefully link with current scientific literature describing historical and contemporary hominin chewing evidence. This published, peer reviewed literature described a diagnostic framework for accurately separating and identifying hominin mastication evidence recovered from both pre-archaic sites and comparative contemporary chewing studies upon ungulate rib bones.

Furthermore, we proposed the evaluation of a new category of incisal dentition signature termed a Notch, which consolidated the applicable literature and accurately described some of our field research evidence.

The conference gave us a chance to demonstrate the links between the teeth mark evidence that we recovered in the field with current peer reviewed scientific research covering the same subject. This current research provided a framework by which we could compare our tooth mark descriptions. It also helps provide a very effective tool that enables scientists to re-examine other suspected human chewing evidence upon bones.

All three locations contained the same evidence profiles of ungulate (deer and elk) rib evidence with clear and measurable evidence of hominin mastication activity. The dentition of other known local ecosystem specific predators and scavengers was compared against Homo sapiens dentition. Of the 25 total hominin incisor measurements taken from all three sites, 92% are outside the average lateral incisors size range for modern Homo sapiens . In this same sample 80% are outside the average measurement for central incisor. From this evidence, Upper Inter-Canine measurements can be accurately estimated. All of the comparative analysis demonstrated hominin dentition physio-morphology of at least two times the size of modern humans.

The evidence was clear and consistent across all three locations. The teeth marks and jaw shapes of bear, cougar, humans, porcupine, and wolverine along with every other potential species that might have been responsible was examined and eliminated or included. After identifying the teeth marks as “Hominin” we measured the geometry of the individual marks and were able to determine that they were primarily outside the upper size range for current humans. From these measurements we were able to estimate mouth size, which again was over double the size of a modern human.
Rib Peeling

The Pre-Molar and Molar dentition signature evidence analysis is perhaps the strongest indication of hominin mastication evidence that emerged from the field research. The current peer reviewed scientific literature describes Rib Peeling as a clear hominin assigned bone surface modification diagnostic characteristic. The physical act of rib peeling entails putting a rib in a hominins mouth and using their hands as levers to move the rib in cooperation with using their pre-molars and molars to masticate the ends. This specific force application procedure has been evaluated over several peer reviewed studies both pre-archaic and contemporary as clearly diagnostic of hominin mastication activity. This process creates specific secondary dentition signatures in consistent hemispherical regions of masticated ungulate rib specimens. The pre-molar impressions were triangular in shape while the molar evidence is characterized by double arch shapes. The evidence recovered from all three sites demonstrated clear and consistent rib peeling evidence.

The physical act or process of Rib Peeling is very simple. It consists of using your hands to put a rib in your mouth and using those same hands to move the end of the rib around as you chew on the opposite end. This creates very specific damage and tooth marks in predictable locations on a rib. It also creates secondary tooth marks in expected locations. This predictable combination of damage and individual teeth mark impression evidence is clearly supported in current scientific research and is an accurate tool that enables the separation of hominin verses predator chewing evidence in bones.

Bigfoot
 Bismarck.Dekusutaa
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By Bismarck.Dekusutaa 2017-05-10 19:59:07
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
-You need to have (an) active attentive healer(s)...This means every member of the party needs to be present, attentive, and making minimal errors for 3-30 minutes depending on the mob and your group.

I find this flawed since you multi-box all, most, as low as a third of your linkshell.

In your case, every strategy might be as simple as:
1) Load appropriate luas
2) Pop mob
3) Alt+tab or check screen to ensure things are running correctly
4) Adjust as necessary
5) Collect loot

I'd like to think we can all agree that neither strategy is so brainless as any other. But, in the event that fingers are pointed, don't neglect to look in any mirrors.
I 6boxed black and white using no automation besides autora. Not only that, it was the first non-JP win. Most of my first wins are primarily manual, because it's just plain impractical to automate every aspect a complicated fight where dozens of different things could go wrong. I have 2 2560x1440 monitors so every character(all 800x600) is visible and quickly accessible at all times, and probably have a better idea of the overall state of any fight at any time than any other player or multiboxer.

While it'd be lying to say I don't use automation tools, hinging your argument on personal attacks when you don't even know me is quite a stretch. I can say for sure that if I were using SMN, every fight would be as simple as hitting a single button on a single application though.

Setting all that aside, you just compared smn to a theoretically 100% botted fight. That certainly doesn't set the standard for 'fair and balanced'.

Quote:
This isn't true either. It has been a recent discussion that the T2 Reisen greatsword is actually better than Rag. There are many examples of the T2 drops (when properly augmented) doing better than some or all REMAs. So SMNs doing well with Grio isn't imbalanced...
Neither is getting the invite where high end fights with established groups are concerned. There'll be a ukon/calad/masa user ready to step up.

What I thought was funny was them thinking that needing a Mythic for SMN makes it ultra hardcore. Like ... *** please every DD in the game knows you need to get a legendary weapon just to be invited to VD Ambuscade or T2+ Reisen ***. Need REMA and some of the best DD gear in the game to get invites to ~some~ of the T4's, well the invites that used to happen, now everything is just SMN onry.

You can see it on any server, just watch the T2+ shouts and everything is "need SMN". No bother geared or playing any other DD job, SMN is all you need for everything. Which is why everyone knows it's broken.

I don't disagree with the bandwagoning aspect. I'm not even entirely sure I disagree with you that multiple AC killing off mobs not intended to be killed quickly shouldn't be fixed.

But the negativity can be toned down. And really Mythic SMN with +1 everything and gearsets up to wazoo should be able to participate in end game content without sneering melees and their envy. Also, several posters seriously underestimate how many pieces of gear a good SMN needs. In anycase doing well in a T4 PT really shouldn't be an issue, AC or no AC.

Sadly though, I don't think this hate is about Conduit. Conduit is part of it, but it's really about nerfing SMN so even mythic SMNs can't participate. That's no good.

And in Bismarck, we don't get those shouts either.
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By clearlyamule 2017-05-10 20:07:44
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Fenrir.Cherrywine said: »
It isn't happening on Fenrir. Trying to bolster your position with lies doesn't bolster your position... We don't all agree it is broken. And maybe you aren't being invited for other reasons...
Different servers do differ. I mean back when everyone wanted to kill bst and saying all they see is bst onry shouts I saw nothing like that. The only real change I saw was some willingness to actually use bst as a DD but not an apparent preference let alone overwhelming one.
 Sylph.Cherche
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By Sylph.Cherche 2017-05-10 20:09:34
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Except SMN can do plenty outside of Conduit burn rather well.

And Nirvana absolutely is not required for conduit burning. Nor is +1 abjuration gear.
 Leviathan.Stamos
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By Leviathan.Stamos 2017-05-10 20:22:57
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Would say 99% of the talk is about Coduit. Considering it avoids all the fight mechanics designed by the developers. Very surprised there is actual push back from people that it doesn't warrant a nerf(just to conduit burns).
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 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-05-10 20:23:25
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We've been here before. We'll be here again. REMA and HQ abjuration gear is not a requirement of any job to kill anything in the game. SMNs don't need it. Neither do any other DDs.
 Leviathan.Stamos
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By Leviathan.Stamos 2017-05-10 20:25:40
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Even the HQ gear for Summoner is cheaper than most other jobs to fully gear it. Don't understand that argument either.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-05-10 20:34:16
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Leviathan.Stamos said: »
Would say 99% of the talk is about Coduit. Considering it avoids all the fight mechanics designed by the developers. Very surprised there is actual push back from people that it doesn't warrant a nerf(just to conduit burns).

They are the ones using it for easy wins, removing it would mean they gotta go back to the old slow way.

Leviathan.Stamos said: »
Even the HQ gear for Summoner is cheaper than most other jobs to fully gear it. Don't understand that argument either.

Because apparently nobody else needs top notch gear to kill high end stuff.
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By Chyula 2017-05-10 22:03:38
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Leviathan.Stamos said: »
Even the HQ gear for Summoner is cheaper than most other jobs to fully gear it. Don't understand that argument either.

cuz everyone want to pimp out their melee job and refuse to play smn, then cry a river when those job can't rape ***as fast as smn. Its simple supply and demand that drive up the price.
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