[Dev1188] Job Points System

That's nonsense. PUP in the right situation is a very good DD that will probably surprise a lot of people - and outparse a lot of more typically used DDs - when they remember to add master AND puppet damage. Sharpshot (RNG puppet) is not an insignificant contribution to damage, and remember too that Armor Shatterer is not just the best automaton WS from a damage perspective, it has a nice 16% defense down effect to help the entire alliance.

However, there are certainly DD situations PUP doesn't do so well in:

1) Times when you can't keep the puppet alive thanks to repeated deadly AoE. Dead puppet = that supplemental DD goes away and you become a MNK -1. So, Delve... not so much. Same issue back in VW days, since temps don't affect puppets and the puppet just dies.

2) Pure zerg (e.g. ADL type stuff), because PUP really doesn't have those big short-time damage burst abilities like a DRK, MNK, RNG, WAR, etc. For longer fights, PUP does fine as a DD over time.

3) Content that needs extreme accuracy (e.g. VD AAs), just due to the disadvantage of B+ H2H skill. If the accuracy requirements aren't too crazy, PUP's fine though. Might need to lean a little more toward Acc gear/food than other DDs, but the puppet can make up for that damage loss.

A couple other niche PUP uses:
1) Low enmity DD. See my above post on AAs up to Difficult, where PUP is actually one of the best DDs for the event and Ventriloquy comes in really handy.
2) "Hybrid" stuff. Yeah, many events call for specialization. But sometimes PUP with a WHM automaton can be helpful by providing some added utility, particularly for lowman stuff.

Currently popular party/alliance content, a well geared PUP is just fine as a very good DD for AAs (Difficult or lower), Skirmish, SKCNMs. It's not so hot in Delve and VD AAs.

Anyone figure out a good way to farm these besides the regular old grind?

there is no other way

So im getting like hundred somethin a kill in khamir with trusts out on bst and wonderin mainly if someone is gettin anything better

Worms in Woh Gates were giving ~360/per with 4 people in party.

The catch being they are absolute beasts now with the level adjustment they received.

No offense, but the reasons you listed make pup a ***dd.

Yeah, I really don't understand the obsession with "proving" that PUP is a competitive DD. It doesn't have to dominate to be worth putting effort into.

"So I can do stuff by myself efficiently without paying for 2 or 3 accounts every month" is a perfectly valid reason to play jobs like PUP, BST, and DNC.

I'm currently grinding these things out at about 32k/hr last I checked, with 2 character+leech. Might have jumped a bit since I've been getting better and pulling an extra batch of mobs from further away, maybe somewhere between 35-40k/hr now.

Sadly, I was thinking the same thing. Everything you listed screams "End-Game Content" for your listed pup weaknesses.

However, I'd like to give you one thing that PUP could potentially be good at:

Different Damage Types: PUP has at least three, if not 4 damage types. In new content, there are few jobs that can achieve this. For example, SAM only has access to Piercing and Slashing (baring Mura/Honebami which both don't work on current content). Even with normally sub-standard DPS, utilizing mob weaknesses could allow pup to do "alright" (untested, unconfirmed, I'm giving you hope!). I have never played PUP so I don't know what the mechanisms of changing modes are but I could imagine it could be useful in some set-ups for something like the Ram or Raaz in the new Delve.

Maybe, but I think there's also some denial of the bitter pill that the nature of content demands you invest the time in leveling and suitably gearing another job even though you've found your One True Love.

To relate this back to the thread topic, I'd hoped Job Points would be designed to address this, which is a legit problem in 11: if somebody really wants to play PUP and nothing else, SE could do worse than help him double down on that commitment and through time invested to the exclusion of other jobs get his PUP shoulder-to-shoulder with competition.

I mean, the flexibility of the job system is great and everything but if somebody really just wants to play one job specifically we shouldn't have to tell them to eat ***, you know?

PUP wasn't designed to be a heavy hitting DD. It was designed to be something fun to do.

That's like saying that SMN was designed to be a heavy hitting mage.

Of course not. But the consequences of SE making a legit-fun, not-very-good job like PUP were a generation of impressionable young people like Capuchin forcing themselves to argue untenable positions to justify their inclinations to play that fun, interesting job, and man, that's not good for anybody!

All of the 'hybrid' jobs tend to suffer from not being wanted at endgame and PUP in its most recent incarnation is most definitely meant to be a jack-of-all-trades lowman DD suitable for BCNMs, EXP, Reives, Wildkeeper parties etc etc.

Problem is, no demand.

Even a job like BLU that lacks PUPs weaknesses isn't deemed worthy at endgame because even if you niche into DD onry (which it can well), you're still not better than the dedicated DD jobs. So even if we dream up a world where PUP lacks its weaknesses (you dont, its called BLU) you're still going to be circling the toilet of desirability.

Couple fo things:

Angierus, oh man I laughed so fcking hard at that meme. I needed that one today at work.

Brixy:


This is what we need for GEO - allow GEOs to cast indi spells on OTHER party members. Yes. Just like how Toci's/Heka's etc sphere effects can hit more than one person, we should be able to use Ind-Spells on other people. This will allow us to be much more useful. They could do something like limit the effectiveness of indi-spells cast on others, so as not to make having 5-6 buffs too powerful (something like half the effect, half the duration). Normal Indi spells remain unaffected

Allow multiple Luopans. Seriously, it costs so much MP, and nothing is more annoying than casting one that dies 2 seconds later. At least we could have a couple different debuffs for the short time they survive (during dematerialize mainly).

I would personally love it if the Luopan wasn't a targettable monster by any means. For instance, enhance Dematerialize to be something around 5 minute recast, 2minute duration, but the luopan loses HP quicker. Dematerialize lasts all of 40 seconds or so, and as soon as its off, the stupid bubble dies. So lame.

Increase the distance for Indi-Geo spells. Besides mage-buffing spells, my indi-spells are not able to be used on front line jobs, because then i'll take dmg and die. If the distance of geo/indi spells were increased to say 10', this would allow us to use the luopan farther away from the center of battle and not risk losing it due to aoe spam. Something similar to Luzaf's ring.

PUP really isnt just the auto anymore, master is a good high DD itself with really nice armor DEF at 117 auto is just a "nice bonus" only thing makes ppl want mnk is formless and 100 fists, outside of that they cant out dmg a pup

Yeah, MNKs don't have the strong DD abilities like Impetus, higher-tier Martial Arts, or superior TP gain that PUPs do. Wait...

Kinda off topic but I posted a couple of suggestions on the Geomancer forums. I doubt they will do any of them because they are afraid of taking away Geomancer's uniqueness... Idk how making your luopan survive for more than 5 seconds takes away anything from the job. Here is the Link if you wanna check it out.

They devs keep responding with the same answer of "As geomancer’s support effects depend on the level of your skill, we are planning to add more equipment moving forward to increase your skill level further and thus boosting the effect of their support." because potency is obviously the issue and not luopans dying as soon as you cast them...

You must be playing with some really terrible MNKs then.

PUP secretly stands for "Physically Unable to Perform". The joke was the abbreviation they used when the job was released. Good to know Square is keeping its intentions with the job.

I approve everything on the list, probably minus the enfeeble addition, as this qould require us to be close range (-ra spells center from caster), and im not sure how effective that would be for higher tier content.

But I think you're right on the money with the luopans, geo/indi spells, and Cardinal Chant could sure use a buff (you know, to make us actually want to cast during high tier content)

Looks like an adjustment to the Job Point system is coming next month also:

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A little late on the reply, but I'll follow up. I'm not that guy trying to justify the weird job just for the sake of supporting it, but PUP really is just fine as a DD for lots of current endgame content. I have MNK too and I'm happy to use that in the DD situations that call for it. I think many PUPs DO have another more traditional DD available to use when it's a better fit. It's more that there are a lot of people who just aren't that experienced with PUP and don't really know where it can be used well, so they're scared to let someone play PUP over a more well-understood job.

PUP is actually probably in its best shape today as compared to any other time in the past of FFXI. It's on most of the good light DD gear, same weapons as MNK, iLevel animators help the puppet, and a large part of the current content isn't just "zerg one big NM down in under 3min". Yeah, it has lower native skill than a MNK and lacks some of the nice JAs like Focus/Impetus, but MNK doesn't have an automaton doing damage (in many situations, makes up or exceeds the loss from master versus a MNK) or providing support. In comparison, in ToAU era PUP had severe limitations on available armor/weapons, and lower weapon skill. Abyssea/VW era PUP had limited procs, and in VW the puppet died since it isn't affected by temps.

What's current state of "end game" content anyway?

Delve: Yeah, PUP kinda sucks here. AoE kills the puppet, lower HP than a MNK, not really good for the "zerg phase" of the runs trying to take down the mega boss. I'll happily bring my MNK or RNG or COR or ??? instead.

High tier battlefields: PUP is damn good on D or lower AAs. Solid damage while staying nice and safe with exceptionally low enmity generation (Ventriloquy on a 1min timer to put your enmity on the automaton, Deactivate/Activate to completely erase it). I've had great success in non-RNG setups using PUP DRG as DDs. To me it's arguably the second best DD for AAs behind only RNG, so if you don't have a bunch of RNGs available it's a pretty reasonable choice.

Skirmish: PUP does just fine as a DD. Solid physical damage, and a nuking puppet is better than relying on Formless Strikes for getting some non-physical damage out of one of your melee DDs. I'd be just as comfortable on PUP as I am on MNK in OR Skirmish.

SKCNMs: Any DD works fine, you're really not going to have a major difference between well geared DDs. Maybe if you were trying to optimize for VD? (but why do that, just pop lower difficulty orbs and win way faster/easier)

Lowman stuff/solo farming (including Dyna/Salvage): PUP is great. I like soloing Salvage with PUP/THF and a WHM puppet, any of the Salvage II zones are easy solos.

Rare zerg situations: I'm thinking ADL and the like, very short fights. PUP sucks at these situations due to lack of major spike damage/JAs.


It has all damage types: magic/blunt/slashing/piercing (as well as ranged/magic/melee). However, that's more of a theoretical advantage that really doesn't mean that much in practice. You really need specialists for each type in these kinds of fights, a PUP alone will contribute a little bit but not be a major contributor to anything except physical/blunt (which is usually easier to get from others anyway). I guess it's nice that you can drop a few nukes on the Kamihr sheep or something, which some other melees can't do. But if your strategy relies on that, you have way bigger issues.

I assume you guys missed this, but:
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/118737-Dev-Tracker-Discussion?p=6078105&viewfull=1#post6078105

Excited for Minuet Attack +10 and Samba Duration +20 seconds. If they ever up the cap to 30, that'd be Minuet Attack +30 (which is massive) and Samba duration +1 minute (the 3 minute Haste Samba duration that I've always wanted).

WHM being able to directly increase magic accuracy and BLM being able to directly increase MB damage is pretty cool. It's unclear to me whether the Clarion Call enhancement makes the JA last longer (useless) or increases the duration of songs cast while the JA is active (useful). I've stockpiled about 80 job points on BRD either way in preparation for the update, so I should be able to test it.

While the job point additions are interesting, the sheer amount of time needed to get these upgrades just means I don't bother, I've gained 2 job points since they added the system.

Well farmed 60 merits with 4 ppl, daily for almost 2 weeks and we all have 14 job points....

824 merits.... 8,240,000 exp... 52hrs

Jump attack is pretty pointless as spirit jump already has an attack bonus. Wish it was store tp or double attack or base D. At least it affects spirit jump. Maybe they'll glitch it and it wont buff either jump for 3 years like lancer's cuissots.


I hope with the job point update mobs give more than double what they give now. Currently at 190cp per kill it takes over 150 mobs to get a job point which amounts to more than 2-3 hours of soloing level 114-117 mobs.

I get about 20-23k CP/hr. Going up to rank 10 on stuff is a little insane, but I hope the chain bonuses from the next update address that.

BLU burning 15-19mobs for 140 each in less than 7 mins a pull is fast, recon i could grind it faster if bothered. But not by much. Its nit bad, just kinda sucks that blu only and whm suffers badly in light of this.

Brd can actually "solo" better than sch, WHM that are the others jobs I party with...

Killing mobs lv114-116 give 80sh cp w/ 4 ppl and solo they give 360sh party kills cp rate too much