Low Man Delve Discussion

Anyone confirm how HP progression works? For example, if you add a 7th is that a ~5% hp increase or is it count as a full pt hence 33% increase?

I would assume the former but wanted to confirm.

Yes and No. Even with stacked magic accuracy, I doubt I could reliably land silence on a Delve NM if my Enfeebling Skill was that of a level 75.

Your assumption is correct, did a run with 6 yesterday followed by a run with 7, didn't save parse details but it was very minor increase.
That 7th member can provide a lot of utility and no noticeable increase in difficulty.

With magic accuracy from item level weapons + equipment, enfeebling skill would not be equivalent to that of a level 75


I used Apamajas II as an example to show that even crippled magic accuracy (Apamajas II is assumed to have only 70 magic accuracy) relative to ilevel weapon is good enough for Delve bosses.

We've been selling 6 man runs since the update and have had no issues really at all with clears. Weve cleared as fast as 20 mins when the buyer was a well geared player and as slow as 44 mins when we had a monk parse 20% acc on bee. Ive been sch on 99% of our runs and had no problems stunning using A-II. I nuke between each stun which really speeds up kills. There have been a few occassions where the boss started resisting a bit due to slow kills but when that happens you can just use Tabula and focalization a bit and when it reaches nearly absolute resist u can just stop stunning and embrava and regen V and play whm rest of run or at least thats what we've been doing and had no issues. last night i was on whm and was able to land all enfeebles on 1-5's and silenced tojil consistently. our static is Monk, Monk, bard, sch, whm and whatever the buyer is. for shark only we swap a monk to blue.

I didn't say the Enfeebling Magic skill would be that of a level 75 - it was an example. I agree that there is potential for other jobs to fill the role of a stunner in Delve (whether reliably or not remains to be seen), but I guess the best question to pose now would be why SCH's have been chosen over the other jobs for that role since Delve has been introduced?

We've all been in PUG's where 2 hours went by waiting on a SCH (or 2x SCH's). Why? Why not get a RDM, or DRK or BLM for the position of stun?

can rdm land stuns, yes, is it reliable, no. rdm will work in a pinch, but it isn't on the same level as sch, period.

with AA staff, rdm is barely ahead of apajamas sch in Macc and behind in recast.

Rdm will be able to stun without problem if your melees aren't gimp and MB dies in <5mins (assuming rdm can get that "8s recast" someone proposed, would be interested to see what gear set that is since i've never seen it but again, i'm no rdm). If your melees are gimp and thus the fight is prolonged, you'd run into problems a lot faster than a sch. I've had scenarios in messy bee/shark runs where we get really close to resist wall and popping focalization for stunning with full macc build bought me and my ally extra time. if that +25macc mattered (or +20macc, forgot how many merits i dumped onto it), chances are that extra 104 dark magic skills difference would also matter. this is pre relic reforge and I have no idea whether rdm can gain better macc pieces than sch. so Who knows.

I think my point still stands for majority of the time, if they dont' have sch up and want to come as stunner, chances are they aren't ready to stun (unless the person is an old school lv 75 rdm/drk stunner who has experience and for some reason did not want to play stunner on a clearly superior job (i.e. sch).. but these are not the common cases in a PUG scenario).

Bear in mind this OP is asking about PUGGing it with normal PUG people, not asking some top ls pimped out rdm to stun for him. My experience with rdm stunning back in 18 man runs is that they are generally a failure and you would only win the run if the other partner is a good sch and covers for them. Would you trust a rdm like that to solely stun your 6 man runs?

Alacrity.

Alacrity for NMs that spam troublesome TP moves faster than bosses do (e.g., peiste). Alacrity to compensate for gimp recast on bosses. Two SCHs to compensate for gimp recast in general.

In reality post-August 2013 update if you had two stunners they didn't have to be both SCH. (People generally didn't invite two SCHs for a safety margin in the event one SCH DC'ed or died. They did b/c no one knows how to gear correctly for recast reduction and Alacrity covered that lack of knowledge.)


Your original argument was RDM's purported magic accuracy deficit (not recast), which doesn't exist anymore. 300+228=528 (RDM native dark skill at 99 + magic accuracy skill from base Lehbrailg +2) is well ahead of 404+70=474 (SCH Dark Arts + Apamajas II).

RDM Fast Cast V (+30) is better than Apamajas II recast reduction (equivalent to fast cast +28).

Not sure this is a good comparison, for example, rdm loses kilmaform/thunderstorm, which gives a boost to both macc and fastcast (if you have AF2+2 boots or better). Not to mention the lost of strategems.

Many has pointed out Apa II isn't the best staff to wear anymore due to the availability of other ways of obtaining fast cast. So comparing a better staff to an suboptimal staff and totally disregard other gear slots isn't the best comparison.

plus rdm will need to use a full acc set and still losses the dark affinity and cast/recast reductions from dark arts. rdm does have access to large amounts of haste in certain slots that sch doesn't, but you're missing the point again.

I'm a diehard rdm, and one of the few i know who had up to date sets consistently through the years. I'd love for rdm to be a solid stunner, but it's a second rate replacement, period.

I'll do a few runs tonight as rdm stunner just to test and report findings. i'm sure it would work in many cases when you cant find a sch.

Sweet, I'm anxious to hear how it goes. I'm beyond the point of no return though in that I built a stun SCH last year to help alleviate some of the waiting for PUG's, but I am curious to see how it would work for other jobs too.

i wanna try to stun as drk lol

I want to be in that run! :D

My argument is RDM is sufficient on both recast and magic accuracy grounds, not "optimal." SCH does offer a greater safety margin and is the better choice for 6-man (helix + nukes for Tojil 2x magic damage phase, nuking Dakuwaqa).

Stun mechanics are obviously poorly characterized in terms of what is the minimum amount of macc needed to Stun without resists before the wall, but if you were able to stun after a resist, you might not have extended the wall; you probably just haven't hit the wall yet. Once I get a Lehbrailg +2 it would be easy to show that Focalization macc, which is +30 or so at beast, doesn't really "extend" anything past ~40 attempted stuns (that aren't eaten by shadows).

It's theoretically possible RDM has a lower threshold to absolute resistance to stun due to lower maximum magic accuracy but that isn't a demonstrated fact in the least.

That's not what i mean. consistant resist happened so i switched to full macc build (namely, ditched my apa II and used venabulum and switched some FC pieces into macc pieces). That bought me a few more stuns. Then that started to resist, so I used Elemental seal, then focalization. From full macc build to macc build + focalization gave me a few more stuns aka i got over a certain resist threshold, is my point. Considering Lehbrailg +2 has same base macc as venabulum i guess it'd depend on how much macc you got from the augment, which has to beat focalization + kilmaform, under the assumption of same macc value in other slots.

But from waht you written i think we both agree that sch is the better option and rdm will suffice provided they have the gear and DDs kill at a good speed. And this only happens and matters in "oh sh*t" scenarios.

shut up spira bards don't stun

I play sch more than bard in delve... it's sad.

also debating against someone with the name of anti-sense nobody gonna point this out? not makin a dig just thought it was funny

You claim you got over a certain resist threshold that increases with increasing no of stuns as opposed to having < 100% stun rate with Apamajas II independent of the stun wall, but this is hard to show especially dealing with small samples that aren't aggregated to get a sense of the big picture. For example last time I did Tojil with Apamajas II I stunned 24 times, then the next 2 resisted, but all further stuns cannot be observed because Tojil died.

Competing hypotheses to explain this are that the resist threshold increases in discrete steps (yours apparently) or that the resist wall is more like a hard limit (give or take 1-2 additional stuns), but I merely have sub-optimal magic accuracy for stun (mine) before actually reaching that wall. In your experience and mine, each time a stun resists with Apamajas II means getting closer to the empirically observed wall, so it would make sense there might be only a few more stuns with high macc before hitting the "absolute" threshold.

Addressing purported other advantages of SCH that are NOT Alacrity: Klimaform is +20 magic accuracy at best. Focalization 5/5 is around +30 at best. A SCH using Lehbrailg +2 or something comparable the whole time might hit the wall in approximately the same no. of stuns as someone using something like Soothsayer. (I say approximately since there is some small variability in the no. of stuns I attempt before I seem to hit the wall, similar to how Stun can last for ~8 seconds the first stun then go back to ~4 second duration, except that instead of being especially susceptible to stun and then back to typical susceptibility, it's typical susceptibility followed by a sudden jump in resistance).

Given that empiric evidence is lacking at the moment, it's speculative to claim that RDM would encounter resist issues earlier than SCH in a meaningful way (at best you can say SCH might land a couple more stuns, but it's not like SCH can extend the fight 5 more minutes).

Also SCH advantages in JA recast reduction (vs. reduction from haste and fast cast) are irrelevant relative to RDM since RDM has Fast Cast V. Example recast reduction setup here for RDM (calculations are not exact since they haven't been determined but are close enough to the nearest second):

http://i.imgur.com/dMfJ6FC.png (note this assumes March +3 or Embrava with Haste spell, so it's not like March +5 is necessary).

This is the same gear a SCH can use, and shows RDM can get ~11 second recast just fine, which is good enough for Tojil and Dakuwaqa stunning TP moves. (Note gear haste is overkill but is capped at 256/1024 in the final calculation.) SCH can get lower recast but it's irrelevant (except maybe for bee with newer SCH reforge armor but I can use 1hr to ensure I get all TP moves). There is no benefit of getting Stun ready faster. RDM doesn't need to use a "full acc" set any more than SCH does. What is sufficient is sufficient. There is no inherent "dark affinity" from Dark Arts.

Regarding Apamajas II being outdated, I myself have made that argument repeatedly. The point of bringing up Apamajas II is that even with gimp magic accuracy (not even Focus and/or Languor; someone has to "check" it, right?) stunning's fine on bee and shark in the amount of time that both SHOULD be killed, so if RDM has more total magic accuracy than SCH with Apamajas II, RDM too should be fine on shark and bee. Tojil seems to be more "resisty," but SCH doesn't even need to use Apamajas II anyway on Tojil.

Stop spewing your nonsense. If you can't land stun 100% of the time now on RDM, then maybe it's time that you learn to gear it properly. RDM can 100% reliably stun, it doesn't depend on arts or ja recast. It can also chainspell if needed. It gives you access to enfeebs in between stuns.

Please learn to play the game before you put the wrong idea in people's heads. Especially those that are looking for advice that don't know any better.

Currently, as the current content stands, RDM is the best stunner in the game.

Spira raises the point that in a PUG, are you going to make the assumptions that a RDM won't hit the stun wall before the DD's manage to kill the Boss? What happens if the NM spams Slowga ~ you stun followed by a TP move (timer still charging) and Lahar lands? Do you not stun Slowga or evene Dispelga which could lead to a poorer DPS, just so you can save an extra Stun?

SCH's access to JA allows it to Stun with a lower recast, which allows for a lower Macc Build to ensure Stuns land that little bit longer.


Working on the premise that it checks resist states ~


here is a Graph that's been devised to work out and calculate resist states and magic hit rates ~



Magic resistance is calculated (at least current understanding of resists states) and is thought to be an iterative process IE: You cast a spell, the game rolls a random # if the number is higher than your magic hit rate for reist sub phase 1 - you move to the next resist phase (so from 1/1 to 1/2) and etc ~ Macc increases your hit rate for each phase.

Now that Hit rates explain the reason why Stun is so high (As it might have even more than just 4) the issue is resistance builing.

Monsters building resistance would be best saying the "Chance" for resisting each phase is increases slighty, but due to the multiple levels of resistance in stun, it takes a long time to beat you 4 chances to it's 1. Everytime you cast a stun spell you increases your targets M.eva (unknown amount based on target NM testing required to fully undestand the potency of this increase) so using this premise that say 1 cast = +5 Meva any Macc you have, will decrease your resist rate.

An easy way would be say ~

You have 1000 attack and your target has 50 defense, each hit adds +5 defense ~ so you keep hitting tills its defense becomes higher than your attack ~ meaning you deal less and less damage. but if you raised your attack, the monsters defense still climbs at the same speed, it just has a larger ladder to climb till it makes your attacks deal nothing.

EDIT** Alot of this info can be found on BG Wiki and explains it using the roll theory for resistance sub states and make it easy to understand.

I agree that a RDM can match a SCH on Stuns if you are low manning and do not need JA for recast. If you do need JA then SCH will always be superior in that regard.

Again magic accuracy is not really an important reason why RDM is less optimal than SCH for stunning and Delve in general. (Is a "little bit longer" 1 stun? 5 stuns? This difference is less important than actually using helices and nuking to ensure it doesn't get to that point.)

As for fast-casting spells that are detrimental (Dispelga, Slowga) followed by Lahar, a conservative stunner would just use Tabula Rasa to have the option to Alacrity stun every single spell or TP move for ~7-8 minutes, which works but is hardly necessary. Also, Tojil can be silenced so the tradeoff is not having to stun Dispelga or Slowga vs. having the stun wall occur sooner. Finally, on Tojil SCH + Apamajas II can stun both Slowga and the next TP move without Alacrity anyway but requires near-max magic haste and tip-top gear (which didn't exist before Reforge armor).

I believe it is an increasing rate/chance of resists, simply because by experience (in particular going to a lot of fail PUG groups you can observe this scenario), when you start to get more frequent resists (like, landing one in 4 stuns or something instead of 100% stuns at the start), with a geo bolstering you can go back to 100% stun rate for a while.

Another observation is when I have a stun partner and the fight is prolonged, i can still hit 100% stun rate for a longer rate than my partner when my partner has less +macc. This is esp seen with a rdm partner, granted he was def. gimp, but he had no problem landing stuns on tojil until tojil was at 45%, where he started getting resists where as my stuns where still fine. Then geo popped bolster and he was ok again for a while.

All my experience with stunning points to the incremental rate of resistance instead of a hard stone wall.

You can say this is all eyeballing, but this is also your words against mine until someone drags a team into a fracture and do nothing but stunning the mob, and get some data out of it. But your hypothesis makes the use of bolster invalid and pointless, but i'm not seeing that in my runs


Yes it does. In a situation where tojil do a Meteor -> Lahar (which can happen). A sch can alacrity -> stun meteor then immediately stun that lahar, as far as I know alacrity is the only way to achieve a stun recast of 3-4s(apart from chainspell).

Your gearset is just what you propose and i assume wear on rdm. And It seems like you are sacrificing good macc pieces for extra fast cast (earrings and rings, for e.g.) And there are superior pieces that only sch can wear (for e.g. AF2+2 or reforged relic boots). That kina set is what a gimp not but too gimp sch would wear with apa 2 and get resists earlier than better geared schs.

from my experience you need at least 10s recast to stun all TP moves on tojil. but this is, again, your words against mine ^^ From what I see I don't think it's good enough for reliably solo stun fractures unless you can shave another 1s off , which according to some guy here you can (you will certainly have more problems with the likes of kurma and peiste with that recast and no access to alacrity) And I do believe you will hit resists a lot sooner than a typical sch.

(i would still like to see that 8s set that people are talking about!)

I'm pretty sure I agreed with you and simply clarified the only instance a SCH "Might" beat a RDM, however we are looking at a NM that is silenceable, and where as we are discussing current content, there is an update every month with new monsters, and fights, and new Fractures lined up that might have Silence Immune NM's with No Stun wall but require back to back stuns which may fall outside a RDM's recast, so basing the arguement on "current content" is all fine, however we should always be prepared for changes.

Further more, your argument about 5~6 more stuns is weak, as you have yet to provide empirical evidence, rather than "eye ball theory stats" to show the number of stuns successfully landed by a RDM compared to a SCH.

On Current content, RDM can stun fine.
On future content, who knows.

I know this might sound like blasphemy, but why not just bring a 7th? The NM HP scales based on the amount of players in fracture, not the amount of parties in fracture.

Think we all agreed and I have also stated that rdm is fine as long as you can kill fast enough and have enough fast cast/haste your whm knows how to celerity sacrifice/erase so you can go on without stunning slowga/diaga. No one is denying that as far as i can tell.

I feel like what we are trying to argue about is rdm is just as good as sch - which is, without a doubt, untrue.

Just like how a 2 song bard with +0 marches are also fine, whms who are slow are fine, DDs who are weak are fine. But if you have a combination of some/all of those together, is where it fails.

For Bee and Shark BLU and Req RUN absolutely destroy it. BLU BLU RUN BRD WHM SCH stomp Foret. Bee is a bit rougher, BLU's and any kind of piercing damage. SAM's no longer need to use ranged builds, there is a 117 Polearm that will let them spam a piercing STR based piercing WS.

Since we're discussing PUG and the folks who haven't spent the last year collecting the best conceivable gear in the game, we can rule out exotic setups like Yochi SAM's. As for MNK's, they are amazing at Tojil but kinda nearly useless on Bee. Take a THF or DNC over a MNK for bee, piercing / non-elemental is just broken in that zone. Shark is a mixed bag, there is exactly one NM that you'd want MNKs for and if you bring Req jobs then it's a non-issue.