[dev1107] Job Adjustments: Ninja

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[dev1107] Job Adjustments: Ninja
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 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2012-04-18 10:44:57
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04-18-2012 04:41 AM
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[dev1107] Job Adjustments: Ninja

  • Sange

    • Recast time reduced from fifteen minutes to five.
    • Additional merit points no longer reduce casting time, but instead reduce the likelihood of shadow images being consumed.

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Other Job Adjustments:
 Bismarck.Sylow
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By Bismarck.Sylow 2012-04-18 10:47:56
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 Bismarck.Snprphnx
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By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2012-04-18 11:40:16
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even IF they were to uncap job specific merits, i doubt i would invest in this. not unless SE makes a high damage, easily synthable shuriken, and gives us some throwing WSs
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 Ragnarok.Eluveitie
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By Ragnarok.Eluveitie 2012-04-18 12:04:48
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Thx SE waste time on Sange when you could be giving us something we actually need like...oh....IDK....Jubaku:Ni. Is it just me or is that utter bs a lvl 60 mob has access to Ni yet here we are at f-ing 99 and no mention of it at all from Dev?
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 Asura.Hotsoups
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By Asura.Hotsoups 2012-04-18 12:27:05
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It's actually kind of frustrating that they decide to adjust this ability, and then not give us new easily obtainable shurikens that are better than koga and stack higher than 12.

Hitting people with Sange in PvP is still hilarious! And now we can do it more often! <_<;
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By Wardeniii 2012-04-18 14:18:21
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Is it bad that this still beats tier V nukes on elemental spirits?
 Carbuncle.Darwena
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By Carbuncle.Darwena 2012-04-18 15:13:36
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Wow... just... wow... just a question: If all my shadows is up with Iga +2 feet... If I use the highest Shuriken (cause I dont see the point of using lv28 one...) the best Shuriken are:

Lv75 Koga Shuriken: stack 99 but YAY! can only be quested and only get ONE per quest. ><

Lv80 Iga Shuriken: Stack "12" lower DMG than the Koga one (WTF?) but can be craftable

Lv60 Fuma Shuriken: another useless stack of 12... But can be "craftable"

Lv48 Manji Shuriken: Stack of 99, can be craftable.

So my point is: Who the hell gonna work on Sange when the only Shuriken that worth bringing WITHOUT Fulling inventory space are STILL LV48???

I mean use sange mean reduce by half you're stack already. (assuming you using the best one so otherwise, it's totaly pointless) I prefer invest on San spell 5/5 and doing probably the same effing DMG with Futae neway...

Like Eluveitie sayd:

Ragnarok.Eluveitie said: »
Thx SE waste time on Sange when you could be giving us something we actually need like...oh....IDK....Jubaku:Ni. Is it just me or is that utter bs a lvl 60 mob has access to Ni yet here we are at f-ing 99 and no mention of it at all from Dev?
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 Fenrir.Kelyn
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By Fenrir.Kelyn 2012-04-18 15:49:17
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Why? just, why? of all the things to update for a nin; Square Enix....here's my response:
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By Chyula 2012-04-18 15:54:26
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Just make 1 or 2 shadows absorb AOE and SE can continue go *** themselves with these dumb *** adjust for all other jobs beside SAM.
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By Bismarck.Sylow 2012-04-18 15:56:46
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Chyula said: »
Just make 1 or 2 shadows absorb AOE and SE can continue go *** themselves with these dumb *** adjust for all other jobs beside SAM.


COR's was an absolute win :P
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By Fupafighters 2012-04-18 16:07:39
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Chyula said: »
Just make 1 or 2 shadows absorb AOE and SE can continue go *** themselves with these dumb *** adjust for all other jobs beside SAM.
Ummm I'm pretty sure fan dance and saber dance look like wins too.
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By Vixin 2012-04-19 21:31:59
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cool no shadows used with max merits snowflake +1.
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By Ragnarok.Vajral 2012-04-20 08:05:34
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Great job SE! Now we can save some shihei (provided NTE doesn't kick in) while spamming gillions every 5 minutes! Oh I forgot, no NTE if someone is to full merit Sange...
Sange would be awsome if SE understood that the problem is about availability and cost of ammos (let alone inventory space)
Seriously, I suspect SE has lots of fun teasing ninjas...
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By Odin.Nargothrond 2012-04-20 12:43:22
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Ragnarok.Vajral said: »
Great job SE! Now we can save some shihei (provided NTE doesn't kick in) while spamming gillions every 5 minutes! Oh I forgot, no NTE if someone is to full merit Sange...
Sange would be awsome if SE understood that the problem is about availability and cost of ammos (let alone inventory space)
Seriously, I suspect SE has lots of fun teasing ninjas...

First if you allow me, I'd like to react about your post.

"Now we can save some shihei"
Real interest in this change is not to save Shihei of course
but let you able to tank not consuming your main tank tool.
Which was aboslutely silly.
That's a first step to fix this JA and going in the right direction.

"no NTE if someone is to full merit Sange" :
I can't see your trouble here.
Merit was always a question of choice.
You can have 5/5 NTE and 5/5 SANGE...
Or someone who wants 5 SAN and SANGE max
still have +-50% NTE, with Yonin and Koga Tekko/+1+/2.

But 2 troubles remain:
1/ We don't know yet how much is the chance to not consume
shadows per merit or how it works at all.
Rank 1 get the JA.
Rank 2-5 = 1 shadows saved per ?
or
Rank 2-5 = +20% chance to not consume a shadow ?
So a bit early to decide.
2/ Then second trouble is Shuriken itself.
Price and Stack size mainly prevent ninjas to use them.
And to really fix this JA and make it interesting it should BARELY consumme ammo. For instance, based on the current NTE while throwing the Shuriken.

How we can save this JA (we nin don't have many^^) ?
-Lower the timer (done)
-Not consume shadows (on his way)
-Barely consume ammo (based on NTE or merit)
-Does not stop if you miss one hit.
But check all number of shadows up
send matching number of ammo if enough
in equiped stack, test landed and damages done,
then check if any ammo consumed.
May be, that way...

But no real need to bother fix Sange,
give us augment on koga chainmail+2
Without a unlimited shot like mixed with sange.

Did they made a step to fix this JA ? yes.
Is it really fixed ? no
Is there any solution to make it usefull ? yes
Do they will make it ? hmmm, that's S.E ^^
another 10 years as a guess...
 Ragnarok.Eluveitie
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By Ragnarok.Eluveitie 2012-04-20 13:37:44
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Ragnarok.Vajral said: »
Great job SE! Now we can save some shihei (provided NTE doesn't kick in) while spamming gillions every 5 minutes! Oh I forgot, no NTE if someone is to full merit Sange...
Sange would be awsome if SE understood that the problem is about availability and cost of ammos (let alone inventory space)
Seriously, I suspect SE has lots of fun teasing ninjas...
They're not teasing, I seriously think it has to do with how they think a ninja ought to be played. I mean look at NIN mob AI for crying out loud all they do is cast Dokumori;Ni ad nauseum and throw shurikens from a distance well away from where the action is. The same could be said on their descisons regaurding alot of other jobs.
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By Asura.Hotsoups 2012-04-20 13:55:09
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Ragnarok.Eluveitie said: »
Ragnarok.Vajral said: »
Great job SE! Now we can save some shihei (provided NTE doesn't kick in) while spamming gillions every 5 minutes! Oh I forgot, no NTE if someone is to full merit Sange... Sange would be awsome if SE understood that the problem is about availability and cost of ammos (let alone inventory space) Seriously, I suspect SE has lots of fun teasing ninjas...
They're not teasing, I seriously think it has to do with how they think a ninja ought to be played. I mean look at NIN mob AI for crying out loud all they do is cast Dokumori;Ni ad nauseum and throw shurikens from a distance well away from where the action is. The same could be said on their descisons regaurding alot of other jobs.

Ninja mobs are doing it wrong.
 Bismarck.Snprphnx
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By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2012-04-20 14:02:43
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Asura.Hotsoups said: »
Ninja mobs are doing it wrong.

dont know, i would like to be able to mijin, and have auto-RR like they do
 Asura.Hotsoups
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By Asura.Hotsoups 2012-04-20 14:04:56
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Bismarck.Snprphnx said: »
Asura.Hotsoups said: »
Ninja mobs are doing it wrong.
dont know, i would like to be able to mijin, and have auto-RR like they do

Instant reraise scroll, and uh... Nagi >_>
 Ragnarok.Eluveitie
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By Ragnarok.Eluveitie 2012-04-20 14:17:42
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Asura.Hotsoups said: »
Ragnarok.Eluveitie said: »
Ragnarok.Vajral said: »
Great job SE! Now we can save some shihei (provided NTE doesn't kick in) while spamming gillions every 5 minutes! Oh I forgot, no NTE if someone is to full merit Sange... Sange would be awsome if SE understood that the problem is about availability and cost of ammos (let alone inventory space) Seriously, I suspect SE has lots of fun teasing ninjas...
They're not teasing, I seriously think it has to do with how they think a ninja ought to be played. I mean look at NIN mob AI for crying out loud all they do is cast Dokumori;Ni ad nauseum and throw shurikens from a distance well away from where the action is. The same could be said on their descisons regaurding alot of other jobs.

Ninja mobs are doing it wrong.
My point exactly and because they are programmed by SE to do it wrong (in their idea of the way the job should be) their behavior will mimic the lackluster job adjustments we as players will recieve.
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By Carbuncle.Enuyasha 2012-04-20 14:24:47
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Ragnarok.Eluveitie said: »
Asura.Hotsoups said: »
Ragnarok.Eluveitie said: »
Ragnarok.Vajral said: »
Great job SE! Now we can save some shihei (provided NTE doesn't kick in) while spamming gillions every 5 minutes! Oh I forgot, no NTE if someone is to full merit Sange... Sange would be awsome if SE understood that the problem is about availability and cost of ammos (let alone inventory space) Seriously, I suspect SE has lots of fun teasing ninjas...
They're not teasing, I seriously think it has to do with how they think a ninja ought to be played. I mean look at NIN mob AI for crying out loud all they do is cast Dokumori;Ni ad nauseum and throw shurikens from a distance well away from where the action is. The same could be said on their descisons regaurding alot of other jobs.
Ninja mobs are doing it wrong.
My point exactly and because they are programmed by SE to do it wrong (in their idea of the way the job should be) their behavior will mimic the lackluster job adjustments we as players will recieve.
Technically mobs are doing it right...the playerbase however decided NIN=Tank instead of NIN=puller/enfeebler/backline DD like SE intended.

*fades back into the bushes*
 Bismarck.Snprphnx
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By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2012-04-20 14:32:54
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Carbuncle.Enuyasha said: »
Technically mobs are doing it right...the playerbase however decided NIN=Tank instead of NIN=puller/enfeebler/backline DD like SE intended.

*fades back into the bushes*

well, being a backline DD using shurikens isnt effective. when they nerfed ranged attacks, they made throwing dmg have optimal dmg when used inside melee range, so why use when you can melee. also, i would love to nuke more and enfeeble more, but SE needs to change nijutsu dmg again, and add a tier 4 that does equal/slightly less dmg than melee, for when its a better option, like rex. more enfeebs would rock too
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By Asura.Hotsoups 2012-04-20 14:43:09
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Bismarck.Snprphnx said: »
Carbuncle.Enuyasha said: »
Technically mobs are doing it right...the playerbase however decided NIN=Tank instead of NIN=puller/enfeebler/backline DD like SE intended. *fades back into the bushes*
well, being a backline DD using shurikens isnt effective. when they nerfed ranged attacks, they made throwing dmg have optimal dmg when used inside melee range, so why use when you can melee. also, i would love to nuke more and enfeeble more, but SE needs to change nijutsu dmg again, and add a tier 4 that does equal/slightly less dmg than melee, for when its a better option, like rex. more enfeebs would rock too

Currently a 5/5 ninjutsu spell allows for some really awesome spike damage with a proper build.

On Rex in particular, with atmacite and either Katon or Raiton 5/5 with the corresponding effect bonus merits you can land nukes with futae for around 2k. And lucky magic bursts bring these numbers up.

Giving us higher base damage spells might be too powerful, when used in combo with futae every few minutes anyway.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Makenshi 2012-04-20 14:46:39
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Besides the obvious lack/cost of throwing weapons, Ninja also has very poor ranged accuracy and no helpful ranged job traits. You need a bunch of ranged accuracy gear and capped throwing to hit anything worthwhile, even then you'll miss a lot and a naked Ranger would probably hit more than you.
 Carbuncle.Enuyasha
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By Carbuncle.Enuyasha 2012-04-20 16:10:53
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Quetzalcoatl.Makenshi said: »
Besides the obvious lack/cost of throwing weapons, Ninja also has very poor ranged accuracy and no helpful ranged job traits. You need a bunch of ranged accuracy gear and capped throwing to hit anything worthwhile, even then you'll miss a lot and a naked Ranger would probably hit more than you.
thats a start...also:

Ninja Tekko +1

Koga Chainmail +2

Ninja Hakama

and other stuff im sure someone can make an item set for :<
 Asura.Hotsoups
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By Asura.Hotsoups 2012-04-20 16:39:15
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This is my throwing setup, I'm sure it has much room for improvements but I don't really throw often enough to justify making a perfect build. A lot of this stuff I carry on me anyway for ranger and corsair.

The Koga Chainmail +2 augment is listed as +20 ranged attack/merit into Sange. I haven't messed around with sange since before +2 relic so haven't tested out it's awesomness. >_>
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 Bahamut.Serj
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By Bahamut.Serj 2012-04-20 16:58:25
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Quote:
"no NTE if someone is to full merit Sange" :
I can't see your trouble here.
Merit was always a question of choice.
You can have 5/5 NTE and 5/5 SANGE...
Or someone who wants 5 SAN and SANGE max
still have +-50% NTE, with Yonin and Koga Tekko/+1+/2.

Have to have san spells or else you're pretty worthless compared to other nins in vw.
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 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2012-04-27 07:24:33
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Camate said:
Since shurikens are such an essential part of Sange, I wanted to share some information as there have been some requests for higher shuriken damage and delay adjustments.

 
•Explanation of shuriken parameters
The following is the basis for shuriken parameters:

-Lv48 shuriken (DMG 63, delay 192)
DPS is 0.328
-Lv60 shuriken (DMG 72, delay 192)
DPS is 0.375

With a level difference of 12, the DPS is increased about 0.047, so the DPS increases 0.0039 for each level increase…

-Lv80 shuriken (DMG 80, delay 192)
DPS is 0.416

DPS is increased 0.041 from Lv60 to Lv80, so the DPS increase for each level increase is lowered to 0.00205. If we continue to use the 0.0039 DPS increase for each level increase, the DMG rates would be:
-DMG 87 at Lv80
-DMG 102 at Lv99

“DMG 102 at Lv99” is a value for shurikens that can be synthesized. If this becomes loot from a NM, it may be difficult to obtain, but I believe “DMG 118 at Lv99” could be attainable. (Regarding Iga shuriken, I believe it is necessary to reevaluate DMG values)

One recommendation we have seen from a player is to have DMG 146 and delay 193 (0.760 DPS), but this is definitely impossible. We have no plans to do so, but this may be the range of stats of a relic shuriken, if it were to be created.

Also, regarding cost, it would not make sense for a shuriken to deal more damage than ammunition for RNGs that cost more, so we would like to reevaluate this aspect.

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By Carbuncle.Darwena 2012-05-18 10:18:17
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Quote:
Just to shut you up cause I tire of this boring conversation and you can't figure out how to do the math anyway.
It takes 2~ seconds to cast utsusemi ni, 2~ seconds to use a job ability and in the previous post we determined the time required to make a throwing attack with shurikens is 4.59 seconds.
2+2+4.59 = 8.59 seconds, for 5(?) throwing attacks worth of damage and TP gain.
Koga shuriken is 88 damage, if the mob has 100 VIT and your base STR is 100 (close enough) it looks like you add 15 STR, so this will give you 3 fSTR, we'll just say you're using good food and berserk as well, since you got warrior on sub, this should put your attack around 900 and give you a pDIF of around 2.25
(88+3)*2.25=204.75 damage per throw, 5.5 tp per throw.
1023.75 damage per sange, 27.5 tp per sange, if all 5 hit connect


We already determined the real delay of a 210 and 201 katana to be 2.88 attacks every 2.02 seconds.
I have no idea what katanas youre claiming to be using outside of Kikoku, which I assume is 95 forever, so we'll use 95 kikoku and a generic 51 damage/201 delay lvl 99 magian katana.
so 60 and 51 base damage, the average middle ground is 55.5.
Looking at the TP set I posted, we see +21 STR. This gives us 5 fSTR. Attack value is going to be slightly less for the tp set, but should cap pDIF for 1 handed melee at 2 regardless.
(55.5+5)*2=121 damage per katana hit
121*2.88=348.48 damage and 12.96 tp every 2.02 seconds using your katanas.

So we'll take the shuriken time and dive it by the katanas time
8.59/2.02=4.2524
So if we multiple every melee value by 4.2524 we can determine melee damage and tp gain during the time it takes to use sange.
348.48*4.2524=1482.05
12.96*4.2524=55.111

So lets see here, actually using sange is:
1023 damage 27.5 tp
Meleeing with your 95 Kikoku and 99 Magian offhand is:
1482 damage 55.1 tp

LOOKS LIKE MELEEING WINS AGAIN.
I didn't even account for the hidden extra damage procs on kikoku and it's STILL WINNING.
now go away.

(4)

Last edited by wish12oz; 05-06-2012 at 03:35 PM.




[Signature removed by Moderator for being way too awesome and full of truth.]

This is why this update is such a joke. Everything explain on this post from Wish12oz on official forum.
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By Vixin 2012-05-20 16:43:42
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lol
 Asura.Fondue
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By Asura.Fondue 2012-05-20 16:56:03
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Vixin said: »
lol

Yeah you should never post on the OF again, for fear someone will listen to any of the myriad of horrible ideas you vomit onto pages
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