[Dev] Planned Adjustments And Enmity System Explanation

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[Dev] Planned Adjustments and Enmity System Explanation
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 Carbuncle.Xenhas
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By Carbuncle.Xenhas 2013-02-18 14:20:54
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Odin.Jassik said: »
Having an upper limit isn't a big issue a long as you adjust the points. Can't move the goalposts and leave the 50yard line where it is. A variable cap on the rate of emnity gain could be nice too. Some kind of job trait that wouldn't require a tank to solo a mob to 80% before a dd could even engage it for fear of pulling hate with a single ws.

Except now, most of the NMs have AOE hits, and DD have enough gear to not be gigantic pussies so the 80% thing is kind of moot.
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2013-02-18 14:37:01
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Giving uneven caps for various jobs doesn't fix the game. It just makes the game easy to take advantage of and let DD's and mages do whatever they want with no fear of dying.
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-02-18 14:41:58
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Fenrir.Mariane said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Some kind of job trait that wouldn't require a tank to solo a mob to 80% before a dd could even engage it for fear of pulling hate with a single ws.
Don't give them silly ideas ... They might like it and put into the game ... (they could take what you wrote in the reverse way and implement it as a mechanic lol)

How is the ability to generate emnity more quickly a silly idea? Right now the quickest way to generate emnity aside from a few job abilities, is damage. Because of the reletively low cap on emnity, everyone is capped within 2-3 WS anyway.

Lowering the amount of emnity generated by dealing damage accross the board while giving the tank classes a trait or 30 second ability that allows them to generate emnity at a much higher rate would allow you to actually use a tank when appropriate.


Carbuncle.Xenhas said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Having an upper limit isn't a big issue a long as you adjust the points. Can't move the goalposts and leave the 50yard line where it is. A variable cap on the rate of emnity gain could be nice too. Some kind of job trait that wouldn't require a tank to solo a mob to 80% before a dd could even engage it for fear of pulling hate with a single ws.
Except now, most of the NMs have AOE hits, and DD have enough gear to not be gigantic pussies so the 80% thing is kind of moot.

100% agree, there shouldn't be AoE TP moves that can wipe an ally aside from the handful of family specific moves that are avoidable. Spike Flail comes to mind, Wyrms are a really well designed family. As long as an NM can take out the whole ally with a single move, tanking is useless. 100% hate resets constantly are a serious game mechanic issue as well, especially when they are attached to a random pool TP move.

Adjusting this trend of timed events with mobs that can instantly wipe a party would go a long way to reducing the amount of super-buffed/PD zergs. There's literally no reason to keep a mob alive any longer than you have to, why would anyone NOT just PD zerg everything?
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 Phoenix.Dabackpack
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By Phoenix.Dabackpack 2013-02-18 14:43:51
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Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »
Giving uneven caps for various jobs doesn't fix the game. It just makes the game easy to take advantage of and let DD's and mages do whatever they want with no fear of dying.


Not necessarily. If, say, PLD's cap is only a couple hundred points above everyone else's cap, then it constantly will be decreasing "into the danger zone" and exploiting enmity will be much harder.
 Phoenix.Suji
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By Phoenix.Suji 2013-02-18 14:46:40
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Phoenix.Dabackpack said: »
Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »
Giving uneven caps for various jobs doesn't fix the game. It just makes the game easy to take advantage of and let DD's and mages do whatever they want with no fear of dying.


Not necessarily. If, say, PLD's cap is only a couple hundred points above everyone else's cap, then it constantly will be decreasing "into the danger zone" and exploiting enmity will be much harder.
yea, the values they choose will be significant.
 Asura.Izilder
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By Asura.Izilder 2013-02-18 14:52:54
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Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »
Giving uneven caps for various jobs doesn't fix the game. It just makes the game easy to take advantage of and let DD's and mages do whatever they want with no fear of dying.


yes im with this .. i love playing pld and want it to be able to hold hate - but not at the cost of being able to chuck dd's at mobs and have a pld hold mobs easy.
 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2013-02-18 14:55:15
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I feel the same, but they're right. It would greatly depend on the values they choose to adjust if they make each job have a different cap.

Too large of a gap will just make things easier to manage, allowing your team to go crazy on it as long as you do your job and stay above their hate cap, which in my opinion is a bad thing.
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 Asura.Aikchan
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By Asura.Aikchan 2013-02-18 14:59:39
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What are the tanks jobs in FFXI?... I guess only Paladin.. If ppl wanna include NIN...

Just lower the cap to the other jobs, and that might mean that the Mob will never attack others players unless there is a hate reset(ability, tank unable to do any action for long time or tank died)
 Ragnarok.Sekundes
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2013-02-18 15:00:08
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Phoenix.Dabackpack said: »
Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »
Giving uneven caps for various jobs doesn't fix the game. It just makes the game easy to take advantage of and let DD's and mages do whatever they want with no fear of dying.


Not necessarily. If, say, PLD's cap is only a couple hundred points above everyone else's cap, then it constantly will be decreasing "into the danger zone" and exploiting enmity will be much harder.

Well, a couple hundred points out of 20k, depending on if it's VE or CE or half and half between then, wouldn't make or break anything I suppose but it also doesn't fix the inherent problem with enmity.
 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2013-02-18 15:00:16
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Asura.Izilder said: »
Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »
Giving uneven caps for various jobs doesn't fix the game. It just makes the game easy to take advantage of and let DD's and mages do whatever they want with no fear of dying.
yes im with this .. i love playing pld and want it to be able to hold hate - but not at the cost of being able to chuck dd's at mobs and have a pld hold mobs easy.

I don't think thats what anyone is suggesting, but if a PLD is using their tools correctly, they should be able to hold and quickly regain hate with a DD on it. 5 Rag DRK's riding souleater aren't what we're talking about, but a single DD being smart shouldnt' be an issue when its for a short time.
 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2013-02-18 15:00:34
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Asura.Aikchan said: »
What are the tanks jobs in FFXI?... I guess only Paladin.. If ppl wanna include NIN...
Don't forget Rune Fencer .-.
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 Odin.Eikechi
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By Odin.Eikechi 2013-02-18 15:01:24
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If pld's cap is a fair decent bit higher than the other jobs, this will make sch's new SP *** OP.
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By Phoenix.Dabackpack 2013-02-18 15:02:46
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Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »
Phoenix.Dabackpack said: »
Ragnarok.Sekundes said: »
Giving uneven caps for various jobs doesn't fix the game. It just makes the game easy to take advantage of and let DD's and mages do whatever they want with no fear of dying.


Not necessarily. If, say, PLD's cap is only a couple hundred points above everyone else's cap, then it constantly will be decreasing "into the danger zone" and exploiting enmity will be much harder.

Well, a couple hundred points out of 20k, depending on if it's VE or CE or half and half between then, wouldn't make or break anything I suppose but it also doesn't fix the inherent problem with enmity.

If SE chooses this route, they need to pick a number such that it is likely for the PLD's enmity level to dip into the 'standard' level of enmity if they are in trouble, but at the same time give it enough leeway so enmity isn't rapidly shifting between the PLD and the DDs.
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By Fenrir.Slycer 2013-02-18 15:10:08
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Perhaps it didn't come across well in my translation but the original post made it fairly clear that they were not planning to make job-specific caps, it was simply a potential idea that came up. The only plans they outlined explicitly are those in the very bottom section ("first step").
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 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2013-02-18 15:12:02
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Fenrir.Slycer said: »
Perhaps it didn't come across well in my translation but the original post made it fairly clear that they were not planning to make job-specific caps, it was simply a potential idea that came up. The only plans they outlined explicitly are those in the very bottom section ("first step").
You made it clear enough, we're just discussing the idea of it just to discuss it.
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 Asura.Izilder
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By Asura.Izilder 2013-02-18 15:12:03
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na it the other way around ... if (only) plds ce was lets say x3 and ve loss over time reduced... it wouldn't matter about the dd period

im glad to see this being discussed but it may not be an easy "balance" to fix
 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2013-02-18 15:47:16
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I like how SE is actually providing the math behind the game now, confirming some stuff and enhancing things that may have been foggy. Shuts certain people up and provides clarity for those of us who like reading between the lines.
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 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2013-02-18 15:48:43
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Valefor.Prothescar said: »
I like how SE is actually providing the math behind the game now, confirming some stuff and enhancing things that may have been foggy. Shuts certain people up and provides clarity for those of us who like reading between the lines.
I wish they'd do it more often but that won't happen :(
 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-02-18 15:50:02
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For what reason does he say he is reluctant to disclose things like this? I mean we even calculated ourselves(as in the playerbase) most of the math behind ffxi, why do they feel it should be kept hidden?
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 Shiva.Paulu
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By Shiva.Paulu 2013-02-18 15:50:03
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Need more PLDs to /heal at half casting distance to the mob.

"WTF are you doing resting!? Get up and tank this"

"I am bro".
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 Siren.Kalilla
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By Siren.Kalilla 2013-02-18 15:51:51
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
For what reason does he say he is reluctant to disclose things like this? I mean we even calculated ourselves(as in the playerbase) most of the math behind ffxi, why do they feel it should be kept hidden?
To leave some mystery left in the game for (some) players to find I guess.
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 Valefor.Sapphire
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By Valefor.Sapphire 2013-02-18 16:08:20
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
For what reason does he say he is reluctant to disclose things like this? I mean we even calculated ourselves(as in the playerbase) most of the math behind ffxi, why do they feel it should be kept hidden?

You could potentially get to the point of having a windower plugin tell you when you are about to pull hate since it could parse an entire fight in progress and emulate the enmity formulas if they were fully disclosed.
Client side you see everyones damage, you know their distance to whats being fought, you know if they are resting, healing, if they died and lost all enmity, etc etc.
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 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2013-02-18 16:14:51
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We already have basically all of the enmity formulas figured out though, as well as enmity gained through effectively any action in the game. None of what was said today can't be made to match Kaeko's figures almost number for number, sign for sign.
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By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2013-02-18 16:16:38
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I think the easiest solution would be adjusting the way Enmity merits are calculated. Instead of it giving +/-1 enmity per merit that is calculated into all actions, similar to gear, they should change it so that you increase your enmity cap by 1% per merit. So that if you are healing or being a non-tanking DD, you can lower your cap by up to 5%, and the main tanks of your group can increase theirs by 5%, for a total of 10% difference in the caps. If you play many rolls, it's simple enough to change, it's not like 15 merits are hard to get now.
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By Phoenix.Dabackpack 2013-02-18 16:22:28
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Bismarck.Snprphnx said: »
I think the easiest solution would be adjusting the way Enmity merits are calculated. Instead of it giving +/-1 enmity per merit that is calculated into all actions, similar to gear, they should change it so that you increase your enmity cap by 1% per merit. So that if you are healing or being a non-tanking DD, you can lower your cap by up to 5%, and the main tanks of your group can increase theirs by 5%, for a total of 10% difference in the caps. If you play many rolls, it's simple enough to change, it's not like 15 merits are hard to get now.

I like the ideas, but the fact that they are merits would be problematic; I would NEED Enmity+ for PLD, but if I decide to switch to DRK, then I'm stuck at the hate cap with the PLD for better or worse. And getting merits is easy, but it's something you have to actually do.

So it's not like "ok let me switch to WHM" it's "well I gotta remove these merits and possibly get some more another time to get more Enmity merits later on". i.e. Me awaiting a role for Legion/whatever 30 minutes before the event, getting the necessary merits to perform my job is an additional step in the process to joining the event.
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 Valefor.Sapphire
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By Valefor.Sapphire 2013-02-18 16:24:14
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Now if they would just disclose the formula of the crafting+synergy system in detail.

We could fill the grand canyon with the amount of random direction/moon/hq/skillup rate/etc voodoo everyones been going on about since release.
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 Bismarck.Zagen
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By Bismarck.Zagen 2013-02-18 16:25:26
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Phoenix.Dabackpack said: »
Bismarck.Snprphnx said: »
I think the easiest solution would be adjusting the way Enmity merits are calculated. Instead of it giving +/-1 enmity per merit that is calculated into all actions, similar to gear, they should change it so that you increase your enmity cap by 1% per merit. So that if you are healing or being a non-tanking DD, you can lower your cap by up to 5%, and the main tanks of your group can increase theirs by 5%, for a total of 10% difference in the caps. If you play many rolls, it's simple enough to change, it's not like 15 merits are hard to get now.

I like the ideas, but the fact that they are merits would be problematic; I would NEED Enmity+ for PLD, but if I decide to switch to DRK, then I'm stuck at the hate cap with the PLD for better or worse. And getting merits is easy, but it's something you have to actually do.
So it's not like "ok let me switch to WHM" it's "well I gotta remove these merits and possibly get some more another time to get more Enmity merits later on". i.e. Me awaiting a role for Legion/whatever 30 minutes before the event, getting the necessary merits to perform my job is an additional step in the process to joining the event.

Sounds like game play SE could find appealing...
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By Siren.Kalilla 2013-02-18 16:26:45
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Valefor.Prothescar said: »
Valefor.Sapphire said: »
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
For what reason does he say he is reluctant to disclose things like this? I mean we even calculated ourselves(as in the playerbase) most of the math behind ffxi, why do they feel it should be kept hidden?

You could potentially get to the point of having a windower plugin tell you when you are about to pull hate since it could parse an entire fight in progress and emulate the enmity formulas if they were fully disclosed.
Client side you see everyones damage, you know their distance to whats being fought, you know if they are resting, healing, if they died and lost all enmity, etc etc.
We already have basically all of the enmity formulas figured out though, as well as enmity gained through effectively any action in the game. None of what was said today can't be made to match Kaeko's figures almost number for number, sign for sign.
There were even enmity programs being created years ago, completely broken now but they were still using the formulas to calculate enmity for an entire group. I never used them so I'm not sure how accurate they are, but you could track the whole process with the chat log I'm sure.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2013-02-18 16:51:10
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Those programs were unreliable though. Since they couldn't detect the enmity-/+ gear a player may use for any given action.

So if the program assumed base enmity from a cure, but a whm was using -50 enmity, the value would be off considerably. Same for a PLD using enmity+ gear.

I suppose it could at least give you a basic idea of DD enmity though, since no DD is going to be using significant amounts of enmity gear.
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