Excalibur Vs. Almace

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Excalibur vs. Almace
 Phoenix.Demonjustin
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By Phoenix.Demonjustin 2013-02-16 04:19:15
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Carbuncle.Pwnzone said: »
BLU gives support via spells while fighting on the front lines dealing damage. RDM gives support via spells while fighting on the front lines dealing damage.

Similar jobs in many ways, BLU sets traits that allow it abilities it does not always have access to, that allows many different setups for subjobs, RDM does not have this, instead it has spells like Temper which augment its abilities through spells, and has access to all spells at one time rather than having to choose between them while also keeping their traits they are setting in mind. BLU also has access to the ability to self skillchain with their spells, while RDM has no such power.

I know RDM does not keep up with BLU in DD power, that has been made perfectly clear to me many times, it was a poor choice of words, I should have said in order to attempt to keep up with BLU. RDM's highest DPS comes from /NIN, which prevents /WAR, which would give the attack to RDM that it lacks, which would boost up Req, which is RDM's best WS if Attack is not to bad of a problem. Every problem with RDM DDing could be fixed by adding a DW spell similar to Temper and putting RDM on the light DD sets it has been denied for the last couple years.

What I am saying is not changing the entire job or its style, I never said to give RDM something it has never gotten before, I want it to get some good melee gear again. I want it to be more melee capable, which is not to hard to do or to much to ask for, especially seeing as even if you made those 2 simple changes BLU would end up being a better DD still, and have access to all of its unique things still, which would be just as unique as they are now.
 Carbuncle.Pwnzone
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By Carbuncle.Pwnzone 2013-02-16 04:21:21
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Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
Carbuncle.Pwnzone said: »
Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
best dagger, Mandau

ftfy


Don't be daft.

We all know the relic Dagger is the best, it was rare so I'm using the most commonly found Blau Dolch.

If you say the best, i figure you meant the best...not the second best thats more common?
 Phoenix.Demonjustin
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By Phoenix.Demonjustin 2013-02-16 04:24:47
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Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
Right NOW RDM's primary limitations are gear related with a secondary limitation of being forced to /NIN for any melee potential at all. Some form of native DWIII is needed, though honestly a better way would be to create a unique set of self-buffs that enhance your stats. An attack +15~25% spell self cast spell, something on that order.
DW Spell similar to Temper with a side of Bravery & Faith and being included on light DD sets would put RDM from an unwanted job to a great powerful job, though both DW & Bravery at the same time might make RDM out DD BLU, so probably couldn't get both, but at least 1 of those 2 would do good enough to make a large dent.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-02-16 04:24:48
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Fenrir.Sylow said: »
I think the more interesting discussion would be why RDM is excluded from the best DD gear. I don't think the dev team is blind to the dire position RDM is in on the backline, they've at least implied it ... and people are constantly complaining about RDM's function on the front line? So what's the motivation to continue shafting it?

I'm starting to think RDM has some secret five-point exploding heart technique that the devs are aware of and we just haven't figured out yet.


Honestly I have no idea. No RDM is asking to be on Phorcys or E.Body type gear. No RDM is asking to be on the same level as WAR / SAM / ect. We're asking to be serviceable.

I think SE developers have absolutely no idea what to do with RDM. Their still shell shocked from the days of avesta-clones running around soloing everything. From our point of view it's just a niche situation, but from a developers point of view it's extremely alarming when one job can do content designed for six to eighteen (at that level). Avesta is most likely the single biggest cause of RDM's current problems.

RDM's strengths used to be the level of self buffs they had. And personally I feel this is a line SE needs to work on, adding more self-buffs that enhance the jobs states. That includes a self buff for enhancing MAB / FC / -enmity or other mage related stats. The proposed changes to making nukes cast faster is interesting, it allows a RDM to easily MB on skill chains which are still common in low man situations (the ones where a RDM could be useful). That doesn't fix the gear issue, it's all over the place, also doesn't fix the support issue. Most RDM' want a 5min JA that lets us share our next self-buff with the party or create an aura effect. Of course SE straight up jacked that idea and is creating an entirely new job out of it. Hell most of SCH and DNC were originally ideas from the RDM crowd.
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 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-16 04:25:04
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The best dagger at 75 99 was still is Thief's Knife!
 Cerberus.Kvazz
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By Cerberus.Kvazz 2013-02-16 04:26:03
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 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-16 04:27:57
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I always wanted there to be stat bonuses attached to enspells based on element.

Heck, if they just had the enspell convert your entire melee phase into elemental attacks RDM would have a role.
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 Phoenix.Demonjustin
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By Phoenix.Demonjustin 2013-02-16 04:29:47
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Carbuncle.Pwnzone said: »
If you say the best, i figure you meant the best...not the second best thats more common?
Ok, RDM could use the second best, and Mandau too, your point being? The situation between the two is no different, just one is much less likely to have been used than the other due to the difficulty of obtaining it.
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 Phoenix.Demonjustin
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By Phoenix.Demonjustin 2013-02-16 04:32:29
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Fenrir.Sylow said: »
I always wanted there to be stat bonuses attached to enspells based on element.

Heck, if they just had the enspell convert your entire melee phase into elemental attacks RDM would have a role.
Some of what SE has said about RUN makes it somewhat sound like thats their plan for it. Could have misinterpreted it or be misremembering it though, last time I looked at things about Rune was right when it was announced.
 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-02-16 04:33:23
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Phoenix.Demonjustin said: »
Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
Right NOW RDM's primary limitations are gear related with a secondary limitation of being forced to /NIN for any melee potential at all. Some form of native DWIII is needed, though honestly a better way would be to create a unique set of self-buffs that enhance your stats. An attack +15~25% spell self cast spell, something on that order.
DW Spell similar to Temper with a side of Bravery & Faith and being included on light DD sets would put RDM from an unwanted job to a great powerful job, though both DW & Bravery at the same time might make RDM out DD BLU, so probably couldn't get both, but at least 1 of those 2 would do good enough to make a large dent.

DW as a "spell" is bad because spells wear off. Just leave RDM going /NIN, unlike other jobs RDM actually gets useful stuff from /NIN. The elemental ninja spells have an unresistable -magic evasion effect on them, something like -30 I believe. As long as the target isn't flat out immune, you can land your debuffs pretty easily that way. Also makes for a debuff prior to tossing out a nuke. Then you have Utsusemi which when combined with RDM's other self buffs (Phalanx / Skin / Aquaveil / Spikes) makes RDM pretty difficult to kill.

The key is to make spells overwrite each other, an attack boost / MAB boost / -enmity boost would all overwrite each other so the RDM could only be in one mode at a time. Also even if RDM was on the exact same armor on BLU they would still be a better melee, SL and their wide assortment of abilities and traits guarantees that. It would just close the gap to within a reasonable range.
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By Carbuncle.Pwnzone 2013-02-16 04:34:06
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Phoenix.Demonjustin said: »
Carbuncle.Pwnzone said: »
If you say the best, i figure you meant the best...not the second best thats more common?
Ok, RDM could use the second best, and Mandau too, your point being? The situation between the two is no different, just one is much less likely to have been used than the other due to the difficulty of obtaining it.

Didnt say that to have a point, was simply making a correction. If you're talking best, its safe to assume you mean the best no?
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 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-02-16 04:38:13
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Fenrir.Sylow said: »
I always wanted there to be stat bonuses attached to enspells based on element.

Heck, if they just had the enspell convert your entire melee phase into elemental attacks RDM would have a role.

Having stat boost attached to enspells is generally a bad idea. Firstly it would be a big buff to SCH, and second you should be changing your enspells to match the targets lowest resistance. Many families have a single element their at negative resistance to, targeting that gives a pretty big boost to your average enspell damage. Few people bothered because nukers always just used their biggest nuke, but since enspells are all the same damage you can target the resistance you want. This is another one of those things SE F*CKED up with RDM, Enspell II's are horrible and weaken things in the wrong order. They should of just had the damage apply to every hit and weaken to the element used.
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By Phoenix.Demonjustin 2013-02-16 04:44:52
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Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
DW as a "spell" is bad because spells wear off. Just leave RDM going /NIN, unlike other jobs RDM actually gets useful stuff from /NIN. The elemental ninja spells have an unresistable -magic evasion effect on them, something like -30 I believe. As long as the target isn't flat out immune, you can land your debuffs pretty easily that way. Also makes for a debuff prior to tossing out a nuke. Then you have Utsusemi which when combined with RDM's other self buffs (Phalanx / Skin / Aquaveil / Spikes) makes RDM pretty difficult to kill.

The idea of a DW spell isn't to have no DW but get it during the spell, more to create a DW0 which would give no delay reduction at all, and with the spell to go with it you could lower the delay by a certain % depending on Enhancing Magic, and the formula could be the same as Temper. I went into more detail on the idea in my thread on the OF if interested.

Quote:
The key is to make spells overwrite each other, an attack boost / MAB boost / -enmity boost would all overwrite each other so the RDM could only be in one mode at a time. Also even if RDM was on the exact same armor on BLU they would still be a better melee, SL and their wide assortment of abilities and traits guarantees that. It would just close the gap to within a reasonable range.
I was saying it might overpower BLU if they gave RDM Bravery, DW, and BLU's gear options, with only 2 of those 3 RDM still would lose to BLU for sure, just not by as much. But if RDM had DW2~3 natively and could have a 20% attack Bravery and Berserk, with BLU's gear options on top of that, RDM's attack would end up much higher than BLU's, and probably it above BLU.
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-16 04:57:01
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Lakshmi.Saevel said: »
Fenrir.Sylow said: »
I always wanted there to be stat bonuses attached to enspells based on element.

Heck, if they just had the enspell convert your entire melee phase into elemental attacks RDM would have a role.

Having stat boost attached to enspells is generally a bad idea. Firstly it would be a big buff to SCH, and second you should be changing your enspells to match the targets lowest resistance. Many families have a single element their at negative resistance to, targeting that gives a pretty big boost to your average enspell damage. Few people bothered because nukers always just used their biggest nuke, but since enspells are all the same damage you can target the resistance you want. This is another one of those things SE F*CKED up with RDM, Enspell II's are horrible and weaken things in the wrong order. They should of just had the damage apply to every hit and weaken to the element used.

The SCH thing could be easily bypassed by making it main job only (sort of like SCH's regen boosts).

Variation by element doesn't have to be the way to go, but if, for example, enfire gave you an 8% attack boost you'd probably use it regardless of what the enemy's weakness was.

You could always do a broad approach and give like, 5% attack 5% critical hit rate when an enspell is active (I just personally see an elemental approach to be more interesting).
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-02-16 05:26:12
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Quote:
The SCH thing could be easily bypassed by making it main job only (sort of like SCH's regen boosts).

Variation by element doesn't have to be the way to go, but if, for example, enfire gave you an 8% attack boost you'd probably use it regardless of what the enemy's weakness was.

You could always do a broad approach and give like, 5% attack 5% critical hit rate when an enspell is active (I just personally see an elemental approach to be more interesting).

Still a bad idea, it would render enspells fairly useless as they'd get resisted, a lot.

Also 8% attack buff is pretty laughable, needs to be 15% to have any real impact and 5% is in the "don't even bother" category. Just like 5% DA on the original Temper was a joke, thankfully we got SE to change it to scale up to +20%. Problem with across the board type modifications is that you run into problems when implementing the mage form of it. RDM is just as much about White and Black magic as it is about swinging swords and daggers. There needs to be a self-buff that servers to enhance magical effects that can't be present during the melee self-buff.

Enspells are for dealing elemental damage, their miniature nukes on each swing. Leave them doing exactly that otherwise you create practical problems.
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By Sylph.Krsone 2013-02-16 06:01:59
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The capped acc rdm tp set on the previous page, why would you not just use cheruski needle over astrolabe and perhaps tyrant ring over mars's. Also augmented selenian cap would out perform maats cap.

Fenrir.Sylow said: »
I would be hesitant to make the claim that RDM could keep up even with a melee WHM.

Disagree.

edit - (as a blu who owns almace and never plays rdm) I helped a friend get an 85 almace for their melee rdm beforehand they were using sanus and requis. Cdc on rdm is a total anti-climax vs what requis was doing (dc dyna mobs duo dia2, boxstep, acid bolt). If I was a melee rdm with the choice of one of the two swords Id go with excal.
 Phoenix.Demonjustin
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By Phoenix.Demonjustin 2013-02-16 06:13:52
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Because those are part of capping acc, if you cap without them Tyrant's is slightly better, and yeah, Cher is also slightly better, but I generally keep on the extra accuracy just because I do DD on RDM in VW and I want to make sure I'm capping. Also, I though Maat's is best, spreadsheet shows it coming out on top as well.

In either case suppose I worded that incorrectly. That set is the best assuming it puts you at accuracy cap, if not then there is a slight bit of damage gained by changing out the Mars for Tyrant's and the Astro for Cher. But the point is that the overall set for RDM is sad by compare to other light DDs or hybrids, I mean even BRD gets about the same or better gear than RDM does for melee.
 Fenrir.Jinjo
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By Fenrir.Jinjo 2013-02-16 09:31:58
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The actual point point is that you were comparing how you want a job to be to how another job is.

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 Phoenix.Demonjustin
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By Phoenix.Demonjustin 2013-02-16 13:05:03
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Yes well apparently I have no idea what I think or say, thankfully I have people on here who can tell me what I mean when I say or do things.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-02-16 18:59:31
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Jinro's just trolling you that's all. Notice how once the thread got semi-cordial he jumped in and had to stir it up.
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 Sylph.Heillon
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By Sylph.Heillon 2013-02-16 20:41:18
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Phoenix.Demonjustin said: »
I mean even BRD gets about the same or better gear than RDM does for melee.
Pardon me for bringing up brd gear on the rdm thread... Bard's Justaucorps+2. 'nuff said
 Phoenix.Demonjustin
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By Phoenix.Demonjustin 2013-02-16 20:59:14
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That and Hecatomb, they are the two main gear advantages BRD has over RDM, not to mention double marches which blow away Haste.
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By Sylph.Krsone 2013-02-16 20:59:53
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Nuff said, yet I dont get the point you're making here its a bard melee body whats your point? Its not like that body is even that much better than rdm melee body options. Nvm I had +1 stats in mind +2 is quite pawn actually.

Edit: And ignore Jinjo alot of what you have said is good info, posting that img if anything shows its him that doesnt know what he is talking about.
 Phoenix.Demonjustin
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By Phoenix.Demonjustin 2013-02-16 21:06:06
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I believe the point was that its a great melee piece the likes of which RDM lacks. A piece great for both TP and WS actually. RDM's got Kudzu though, which makes up for it. RDM and BRD have very similar gear options which was my original point in that post in the first place. The body is actually quite better than RDM's options in some situations, so far as I know it would be the best RDM CDC body, the best RDM TP body in accuracy lacking situations, and an easier body to obtain in the end anyways, than Kudzu which is the only RDM body better than it.
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 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2013-02-17 06:48:00
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The Vara brigandine, Kudzu Aketon and Shedir manteel are all solid RDM melee bodies for different builds and WS's. The Justacorps +2 is like "WTF SE?" but SE is known to do random sh!t like that. It seems RDM is the only job that SE actively avoids giving anything remotely powerful to. Their still scared of Avesta.
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 Phoenix.Demonjustin
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By Phoenix.Demonjustin 2013-02-17 10:22:30
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I know, I was just saying that the piece is quite powerful, Krsone originally made it sound as though the piece was just an ok body, but really its stats are better than many of RDM's options. RDM has a few choices we have gotten in the last few months which are almost as good or better, but that doesn't change the fact it stands out as an amazing body for BRD and is an advantage gear wise.
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 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-02-17 10:23:18
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BRD has always had strangely good melee options.
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By Asura.Fondue 2013-02-17 10:51:00
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Fenrir.Sylow said: »
BRD has always had strangely good melee options.
and yet people still sing and then afk for 3 minutes
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By Asura.Diggs 2013-02-18 10:00:59
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off-topic-galore
 
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