Paladin FAQ, Info, And Trade Studies.

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Paladin FAQ, Info, and Trade Studies.
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 Phoenix.Gustavve
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By Phoenix.Gustavve 2011-09-25 19:32:05
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Shellra5 with 5 merits should be an extra 2.~ I can play with so it doesn't really matter.


I'll do more when I have time and get precise values. The 25% gear has to account for an extra +3 INT I forgot about.
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-09-25 20:07:13
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Ah, that explains the weird number. It's probably 87.5% then as previously reported.
 Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-09-25 23:18:21
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Pretty much exactly what we expected. At least that means we can drop some MDT gear in our sets and still be capped.

Thanx for the tests Gustavve.
 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2011-09-25 23:23:36
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Does the 87.5% include MDB or is just MDT capping?
 Ifrit.Darkanaseur
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By Ifrit.Darkanaseur 2011-09-25 23:25:36
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Doesn't look like it, the one shown with MDB gear is lower than without it. It's small though, dunno how much MDB he has on.
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-09-26 09:30:13
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At near 90% MDT, MDB will have a very small impact, but it will have an impact. You have to weight the advantages of wearing Int/Mnd in those slots however, to see if dStat changes would reduce damage more than MDB would in that slot (after capping MDT ofcourse).
 Ifrit.Showmo
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By Ifrit.Showmo 2011-09-26 09:48:23
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Phoenix.Gustavve said: »
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/82143-Spell-interruption-down-cap-and-Aquaveil-Tests?p=3098422&viewfull=1#post3098422

That post should help.

I must say thoough, Either Iron Will gives more than advertised or impatiens/Karagentsu/Knightly Earring gives more. I'm at 101% during rampart.I have used it plenty of times with swarms of mobs or my back turned/no shield block and I have never noticed and interrupt that was not accompanied by a knockback move.
Thanks for the link Gustavve. I find it odd that the difference between 102% or 101% Spell Interruption is so significant. 101% is probably around 30% spell interrupt reduction while 102% is 100%.
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By Ifrit.Showmo 2011-09-26 11:29:20
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I went to go test Aegis (95) today to see if I could find a difference in damage reduction during blocks, since relic weapons had received another boost at Lv. 95 as well.

Here is the raw data:

My Job/Level: PLD95/WAR47

Mob: Fear Dearg (only one), Decent Challenge

Shield Skill: 404 (Capped, remained static the entire time)

No equipment other than Aegis (naked)

No cruor buffs except for HP/MP

Used regen atmas, including Mounted Champion, which gave VIT+50.
Code
Melee Damage Taken
Player             Melee Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss   M.Low/Hi    M.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit%
Showmo                 37632   98.14 %    1220/72       2/76    29.10     92    13/121   52.20    7.54 %

Showmo
  Melee
        2:   77
+       3:   82
        4:   71
        5:   74
        6:   80
        7:   47
        8:   70
        9:   57
 ^     10:   46
       11:    3
       42:   25
       43:   37
       44:   45
       45:    7
       46:   20
       47:   11
       48:   10
       49:    8
       50:   13
       51:   14
       52:   11
       53:   15
       54:   17
       55:   13
       56:   16
       57:   17
       58:   17
       59:   20
       60:   14
       61:   16
       62:    6
       63:   15
       64:   16
       65:   16
       66:   14
       67:   13
       68:   12
       69:   11
       70:   17
       71:   12
       72:   11
       73:   18
       74:    7
       75:    4
       76:    3
  Melee Crits
       13:    3
       14:    3
+      15:   12
       16:    8
       17:    4
       18:    3
       19:   10
 ^     20:    6
       21:    3
       22:    3
       86:    1
       87:    2
       90:    1
       92:    1
       93:    2
       97:    2
       98:    1
       99:    2
      100:    1
      101:    2
      102:    1
      103:    1
      106:    2
      107:    3
      108:    2
      109:    3
      110:    1
      111:    1
      113:    2
      115:    1
      116:    2
      117:    1
      119:    1
      121:    1

If I'm doing the math correctly, the data shows a 90% damage reduction while blocking? Aegis originally had a 75% reduction on it before 95, so it may have received a 10% increase plus any new tiers of Shield Defense Bonus we may have gained (if I did the math right).

Additionally, I gathered some data on Palisade as well. I gathered data from two separate parses: the parse shown above (no buffs such as Reprisal or Palisade), and a second parse with Palisade only (parses were stopped right before Palisade wore off, and resumed after the buff was reapplied). The parse was done on the same exact Fear Deag. The Palisade parse only has a sample size of 185 hits because my Visitant time had ran out, but you can still see the difference with the Palisade buff.

Raw Data:
Code
Melee Damage Taken
Player             Melee Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss   M.Low/Hi    M.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit%
Showmo                  2596   96.83 %     185/17       2/76    12.27     15    14/119   34.00    8.11 %

Showmo
  Melee
        2:   18
+       3:   32
        4:   21
 ^      5:   16
        6:   15
        7:    8
        8:   15
        9:   10
       10:   10
       42:    2
       43:    4
       44:    4
       47:    1
       48:    1
       49:    1
       51:    1
       53:    1
       55:    1
       58:    1
       59:    1
       65:    1
       66:    2
       67:    1
       69:    1
       73:    1
       76:    1
  Melee Crits
       14:    2
       15:    1
       16:    3
+^     17:    4
       18:    1
       20:    1
       93:    1
      101:    1
      119:    1


The initial parse with no buffs:
Shield Blocks: 662
No Shield Blocks: 558
Total hits: 1,220


54.26% Block Rate

Parse with Palisade:
Shield Blocks: 157
No Shield Blocks: 28
Total hits: 185


84.86% block rate

Palisade appears to increase block rate by 30% from the current data. It also appears to bypass the block rate cap, unless Aegis received yet another block rate increase at Lv. 95 (but doubtful). The percent increased could be subject to your current shield skill and mob level; more testing would be needed.
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 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-09-26 12:37:50
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Ifrit.Showmo said: »
Phoenix.Gustavve said: »
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/82143-Spell-interruption-down-cap-and-Aquaveil-Tests?p=3098422&viewfull=1#post3098422

That post should help.

I must say thoough, Either Iron Will gives more than advertised or impatiens/Karagentsu/Knightly Earring gives more. I'm at 101% during rampart.I have used it plenty of times with swarms of mobs or my back turned/no shield block and I have never noticed and interrupt that was not accompanied by a knockback move.
Thanks for the link Gustavve. I find it odd that the difference between 102% or 101% Spell Interruption is so significant. 101% is probably around 30% spell interrupt reduction while 102% is 100%.
It's because of his testing method. Each hit taken rolls for a chance at interruption, so while large but uncapped amounts will more than likely succeed against a single hit they're more and more likely to fail as you take additional hits because one failed roll is all it takes.
 Ifrit.Showmo
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By Ifrit.Showmo 2011-09-26 13:08:41
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Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
Ifrit.Showmo said: »
Phoenix.Gustavve said: »
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/82143-Spell-interruption-down-cap-and-Aquaveil-Tests?p=3098422&viewfull=1#post3098422

That post should help.

I must say thoough, Either Iron Will gives more than advertised or impatiens/Karagentsu/Knightly Earring gives more. I'm at 101% during rampart.I have used it plenty of times with swarms of mobs or my back turned/no shield block and I have never noticed and interrupt that was not accompanied by a knockback move.
Thanks for the link Gustavve. I find it odd that the difference between 102% or 101% Spell Interruption is so significant. 101% is probably around 30% spell interrupt reduction while 102% is 100%.
It's because of his testing method. Each hit taken rolls for a chance at interruption, so while large but uncapped amounts will more than likely succeed against a single hit they're more and more likely to fail as you take additional hits because one failed roll is all it takes.
Yeah I figured more hits would increase the chance of interrupt (due to more rolls). Though looking at my posted data a page back and the data from here, it doesn't seem like Spell Interrupt adds that much to low level skills until you hit 102% (or close to it). Aquaviel provided 20%-25% before the update SE did on it, so with around 28%-33% spell interrupt, RyaWHM only had a 1.5% chance for no interruption.
 Ifrit.Showmo
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By Ifrit.Showmo 2011-09-26 14:19:09
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Back with more data in hopes to help shed light on the mechanics of Shield Skill.

Here is the data on a single Fear Dearg (same exact mob for both tests). I also paused the parse immediately if I was slept with Dream Flower, and resumed once awake (to avoid skewing the data as blocks cannot occur while slept:

My Job/Level: PLD95/WAR47

Mob: Fear Dearg, Decent Challenge

Shield Skill: 404 (Capped, remained static the entire time for first parse)

No equipment other than Aegis (naked)

No cruor buffs except for HP/MP

Used regen atmas, including Mounted Champion, which gave VIT+50.
Code
Melee Damage Taken
Player             Melee Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss   M.Low/Hi    M.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit%
Showmo                 32494   97.56 %     978/59       2/78    29.77    106    13/123   61.67   10.84 %

Showmo
  Melee
        2:   44
        3:   45
        4:   56
        5:   53
+       6:   61
        7:   45
        8:   50
        9:   59
 ^     10:   45
       11:   10
       12:    1
       42:   16
       43:   29
       44:   19
       45:   10
       46:   13
       47:    8
       48:    7
       49:   14
       50:   11
       51:   11
       52:   13
       53:   14
       54:   11
       55:    9
       56:   10
       57:    9
       58:   14
       59:   12
       60:   11
       61:    9
       62:   15
       63:    9
       64:    9
       65:   12
       66:   10
       67:   17
       68:   11
       69:    9
       70:   11
       71:   14
       72:   12
       73:    2
       74:   11
       75:    8
       76:    1
       77:    1
       78:    1
  Melee Crits
       13:    1
       14:    6
       15:    7
       16:   10
       17:    4
       18:    5
+      19:   11
       20:    2
       21:    4
       22:    1
       23:    1
 ^     88:    3
       89:    2
       90:    3
       91:    1
       92:    3
       93:    2
       95:    1
       96:    1
       98:    3
      100:    1
      101:    1
      102:    1
      104:    2
      105:    3
      106:    3
      107:    2
      109:    1
      110:    2
      111:    1
      112:    1
      113:    2
      114:    2
      115:    3
      116:    3
      117:    2
      118:    3
      121:    1
      123:    1

Shield Blocks: 521
No Shield Blocks: 457
Total Hits: 978

53.27% block rate


Parse with +39 Shield Skill in gear (443 total, remained static the entire time for this second parse; also the same mob used in above parse):
Code
Melee Damage Taken
Player             Melee Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss   M.Low/Hi    M.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit%
Showmo                 33787   97.95 %    1558/95       1/65    19.49    154    10/108   41.72    9.88 %

Showmo
  Melee
        1:   41
+       2:  304
        3:  220
        4:   85
 ^      5:   96
        6:   94
        7:   49
        8:    6
       38:    9
       39:   15
       40:   16
       41:   15
       42:   80
       43:   71
       44:   57
       45:   19
       46:   11
       47:   10
       48:   16
       49:    8
       50:   14
       51:   14
       52:   12
       53:   20
       54:   18
       55:   13
       56:   12
       57:   10
       58:   14
       59:   16
       60:   13
       61:    9
       62:    3
       63:   11
       64:    2
       65:    1
  Melee Crits
       10:    1
       11:    9
       12:   10
       13:   13
+      14:   18
       15:   17
 ^     16:   11
       17:    9
       18:    9
       19:    2
       20:    1
       78:    1
       79:    3
       80:    1
       81:    4
       82:    3
       83:    1
       84:    4
       87:    3
       88:    1
       89:    2
       90:    1
       92:    4
       94:    2
       95:    3
       96:    3
       97:    2
       98:    1
      100:    2
      101:    3
      102:    1
      103:    3
      104:    1
      105:    2
      106:    1
      107:    1
      108:    1

Shield Blocks: 995
No Shield Blocks: 563
Total Hits: 1,558

63.86% block rate


The increase appears to be 10.59% when you add 39 Shield Skill. Aegis (95) was used for this test.

Pure Speculation:
With this model, I would assume that every +4 Shield Skill = +1% block rate (or 1 skill = 0.25% block rate). This is pure speculation and more testing would be needed.

Edit: I also noticed that the Fear Dearg from the previous test was hitting me for 2-11 damage during shield blocks, and I averaged a 54.26% Block Rate while naked (except for Aegis), but the Fear Dearg for this test was hitting me for 2-12 damage on blocks (while naked except for Aegis), and I averaged a 53.27% block rate (0.99% difference, pretty much 1%). This leads me to believe that this second Fear Dearg was one level higher than the previous, and that each level difference seems to add or reduce block rates by 1%?
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By Odin.Hitoseijuro 2011-09-26 18:52:26
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Nice stuff Showmo(really appreciate the effort)

Few things, if you could redo your palisade with a higher sample that would be great(although just from the test we can see palisade is very potent).

Youd probably have to go full skill on shield and then use palisade to see how high your blocking goes, Judging by your testing this would give Aegis roughly 90%-ish block rate with palisade/shield gear.

Another thing, where does reprisal fit into this.

For instance test naked with shield(check, youve done this)
test with skill(youve done this, check)
Test with reprisal(needs testing)
test with palisade (done this, think a bigger sample would help but ya)
Test with skill/reprisal
Test with skill/palisade
Test with all 3(shield/palisade/reprisal)wouldnt have to be a huge long test.

Reason being, and imo really, is reprisal bound by a cap? Is it static or is it affected by level/shield/skill(ie more skill increases reprisals %, bigger shields get bigger boosts? etc etc), with all the above does palisade surpass a cap, does it scale with skill/shield/lv etc.

Either way you dont have to, but if youre looking for something to do/test Im sure those could help a bit.


Another thing, I think the 4 skill = 1% blocking rate seems to hold some water, I believe Martel did some shield testing with a size3 shield and with around 40-ish skill his blocking rate increased by roughly 10%.

Martel shield testing
 Phoenix.Neosutra
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-09-26 19:40:02
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Awesome work Showmo.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2011-09-26 20:24:27
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Motenten has a buffs by time for defense tab/function in the works for KParser. Personally, I'm waiting for that before I do these tests. It'll make it soooo much easier. Just parse and use them. No starting/stopping constantly.

Or you could gather the parse data like this now, then reparse the data when the update for def/buffs comes out. I might do that.
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-09-28 19:38:51
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What are you guys thinking as new "Pure Magic Reduction" sets on Pld for Aegis 95 weilders?

I'm thinking something like:



MDB hands/feet I guess. Can swap around MDT/DT/MDB slots a bit and see what works best. This set caps MDT, and adds in decent amount of MDB and dStat.

Suggestions?
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By Phoenix.Gustavve 2011-09-29 08:09:56
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Ochains block wasn't amazing vs Uptala(zilart hahava). I started out with Aegis and quickly changed to ochain. Both ochains noticed plenty of non blocks.

Is there no CE generating sub job now? I demand SE bring back the rdm sub!

Does anyone know how much - enmity tranquil heart is?

Does anyone know what the CE modifier for enmity when curing a lvl 95 target?
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-09-29 09:21:47
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Do you have an estimate on "wasn't amazing" block rate for Ochain on Uptala? Would make Uptala pretty high level to drive Ochain's curve down so much.

And *** another CE generating sub job, I want the Decoy Job Ability that locks the target on me >.>..
 Phoenix.Gustavve
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By Phoenix.Gustavve 2011-09-29 10:12:51
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I have the chat logs and an ls member has parses but other than noting the severe dmg (400-1k+) I'm not sure how to tell. I would say 75% or less of his tp moves were blocked. Probably the first time I casted reprisal everytime it was up with ochain.



The only other sub job I see sch (aspir) and drk (aspir/stun) but most of the VW build resist to stun so I don't recommend spamming that.

I'm assuming you can block the 2 yaksha tp moves. I've fought hahava 3 times with aegis@ PLD90 and once with ochain@ PLD95 so I'm not very familiar with him.


I was in turtle gear unless I got caught mid action. I have more of those taking 100-400 dmg, and 2k dmg on melee/mages.

Phoenix.Neosutra said: »
What are you guys thinking as new "Pure Magic Reduction" sets on Pld for Aegis 95 weilders?

I'm thinking something like:



MDB hands/feet I guess. Can swap around MDT/DT/MDB slots a bit and see what works best. This set caps MDT, and adds in decent amount of MDB and dStat.

Suggestions?

Looks about right. I like the Twilight Helm over Neosis just for the sake of inventory space. I won't be carrying extra mdb just for an Aegis MDT set.

Since most ppl have either a habit of hitting a bind key for mdt set or typing "/sc s mdt" almost instantly I didn't wanna change my sets for ochain/aegis. I used this and I have a rule that changes variables for depending on which shield is in each slot. I can shorten that up by inheriting one or the other sets I just haven't gotten around to it.

I also have 2 refresh sets for my refresh variable. One that with Twilight/Collar and another with Af3 head/twilight/belt/neck.
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By Asura.Izilder 2011-10-20 09:38:04
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I remember trying to build an SID set on pld back when i used to SID tank on rdm/nin .. dont even bother if you cant hit 102 % its crappy

Also tranquil heart reduction was -20 or higher, was a while back now when i tested so forget what it was bang on.
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-10-24 09:19:44
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I've been using my integrated spell interupt set for casting, and have put a lot of effort into it. However I'd agree with Izilder that it's definitely NOT a linear increase in actual spell interuption rate. I get interupted FAR more than I should with the amount of skill I have (when casting Utsusemi).

I would guess that actual interuption rate has to do something with your current skill lvl relative to your level and the level of the mob you're fighting. Thus extremely low skills (like subjob skills, Utsusemi) get heavy penalties.

However we know that SI 102% gives 100% interupt prevention, so it's not just additive. It's really frustrating when trying to develop a formula.

I will say however, that with the 20% SI Atmacyte, a tank can luckily just gear for 82% SI and still obtain non interuptable casting.

10% merits.
10% Impatiens.
8% Kaiser body augment.
6% Ninurtas.
15% Kara feet.
10% Knightly Earring.
10% Valor legs.

That's 69%.

Can pump out another 8% from rings (Augmented Diamond or some lucky Dark rings). Bringing it to 77%.

Could use torque to get ya to 82%, and meet 102% SI for all of VW fights.

Anyone have any suggestions for other spots to swap out SI?

Also, I'll be updating the OP eventually this week/weekend. I had a lot of info there and it got mysteriously deleted, and I've been too frustrated to replace it all thus far.
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By Phoenix.Gustavve 2011-10-24 13:03:22
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Personally I wouldn't use my cruor or atmacite slot for the 20% spir. I also removed my spir merits :/ If you're lucky enough to get the body off Kaggen augmented mbody loses even more ground for holding an inventory slot. Oh Knightly is 9% btw.

It probably comes down to play style and preference but it seems like a lot of sacrifice to make it worth it.

I need to go back and double check my mdt sets but I did quick test this weekend just to confirm you need 52% pdt to get 500 dmg 1000 needles. I assume mdt works the same way. I haven't put enough thought into it for aegis mdt and non aegis mdt sets to make a change to my xml.

I really need a more accurate test than worms in abyssea. PvP 1000 needles reliable?
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By Phoenix.Neosutra 2011-10-24 23:12:11
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I don't know, I've been looking at hate management and damage taken and I generally take less damage as Pld/nin with Aegis than my cotanks who usually Pld/war with Ochain. The DoT from each Pld is pretty similar too.

Being able to get shadows back up 100% of the time and eliminating recast and all the emnity lost every time you take that extra damage is a pretty big plus for keeping hate.

However, I do like the current Coersian/Discipline Atmacyte combo for Regain/Hp/Save TP.
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2011-10-25 12:53:15
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Odin.Aable said: »
Ifrit.Showmo said: »

Pure Speculation:
With this model, I would assume that every +4 Shield Skill = +1% block rate (or 1 skill = 0.25% block rate). This is pure speculation and more testing would be needed.

You have over 400 shield skill. You do not have 100% block rate. It is clearly more complex then that.
Think of it like accuracy and hit rate. There are other factors but that doesn't mean this isn't a good starting point or that from a certain point with a certain mob given static stats that it isn't mostly true.
 Shiva.Brunwulf
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By Shiva.Brunwulf 2011-10-25 13:03:49
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would Nierenschutz be a better MDT belt than Creed? Not 100% on the % reduction of 4 MDB.
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2011-10-25 13:26:30
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3MDT > 4 MDB unless you're at cap already for MDT. Nieren has a bonus of being DT though so it helps with physical damage as well.

There is an exact formula for it, it might even be mentioned somewhere in this thread, but MDB is rather weak compared to MDT.
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By Shiva.Brunwulf 2011-10-25 13:30:19
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yeah, wanted to make sure. For some reason I can't remember the % for 1mdb=%mdt. Getting old.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2011-10-25 13:41:46
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Maybe it's because there isn't such a %. Neither one has a constant value in terms of % reduction. MDT gets better as you add more, MDB gets worse.
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By Ragnarok.Sekundes 2011-10-25 13:43:39
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I don't think the way the formula works would allow you to say X% of MDB = MDT. I'm fairly sure each works as a fraction of 1024 or 256 and is multiplied together to give the total reduction.

Edit: Nightfyre got it.
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