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FFXI Skill
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 Cerberus.Excelior
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By Cerberus.Excelior 2010-08-04 10:52:45
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Fairy.Basilo said:
Im just unlucky then, also I dont feed wiki info so thats one less unlucky person thats feeding them info for their average.

What floor do you kill QAs on? I'm told the drop rate is always higher on the final floor before the boss. Pretty mcuh anyone I've met with ares body has gotten the 35 on that floor.
 Fairy.Basilo
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By Fairy.Basilo 2010-08-04 10:52:59
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Didnt wanna make a new thread on this, I never make threads ill just post it here, what are peoples opinions of the ordering of magian staff reps for hq staves for a blm?

ATM ive done Indra and sold Jupiters despite fact my rdm still 76 lol, Im doing vulcan staff replacement atm as I use kirin pole for burn to reach 150int then only other staff I can see blm being able to replace at this time is apollos for cure potency +17% as blm doesnt rly need/cant use banish/holy/repose... thoughts?
 Sylph.Liltrouble
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By Sylph.Liltrouble 2010-08-04 10:54:58
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been my experience that gear can't substitute for lack of merits. A skilled player will have those merits. I've witnessed a back-up pld out-tank an Ares-Aegis main Pld. Can't buy skill. It's earned; often times through alot of mistakes. Can't Smn burn skill, can't Abyssea spam it either. Skill's not a merit. Skill, studying, 1st-hand experience go hand-in-hand.
On a side note, you can have the prettiest gear in the game, have merits capped and be in a top-notch LS and have pro skills. However, if you're an ***, treating the other people in game as though they're there at your disposal, you're worthless and need to gtfo. Remember, you can ungimp a job, but you can't ungimp your character. An *** is still an ***.
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 Fairy.Basilo
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By Fairy.Basilo 2010-08-04 10:59:47
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Cerberus.Excelior said:
Fairy.Basilo said:
Im just unlucky then, also I dont feed wiki info so thats one less unlucky person thats feeding them info for their average.
What floor do you kill QAs on? I'm told the drop rate is always higher on the final floor before the boss. Pretty mcuh anyone I've met with ares body has gotten the 35 on that floor.

Ima be honest and say that before lvl increase update only like 50% of runs AR we would have a decent enough group or do well enough to clear AR floor 6 under 7mins varied alot with who was puller not always bigger group wins as you know too. Even so ive done floor 6 with well experienced 5/5 usu monks who never knew they existed lol.

Since update its a breeze now should always be able to do it unless u are like trying 4 man, ive done it 5 man with no brd 1 mage 4 dd (pld 2 mnk thf lol) Both coats we got were off floor 4 qiqirn, one in oct 2006ish went to Terran and one this yeah febuary which I gave to Bahamuth.
 Unicorn.Nymphadora
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By Unicorn.Nymphadora 2010-08-04 11:18:08
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Diabolos.Ariane said:
Unicorn.Nymphadora said:
Since when do you need "good" gear? Sure, a part of being a skilled player is knowing what gear works where, how to use it, and striving to get the better pieces of gear for your job, but a skilled player should also be able to take what gear they have and still perform well until they're able to obtain said good gear.

At this point in the game though, any good player has had plenty of time to get at least some good pieces of gear, anyone who hasn't would most likely fall into the lazy catagory, and laziness is the primary ingredient for bad players.

I think Salvage gear is a good example. It is currently some of the best gear in the game (it's another debate whether it will stay that way), and there are very few impediments to players who want the gear.

You don't need an alliance of players, especially since level cap, any zone can be full cleared with 6 players.

It isn't time intensive, any player should be able to find some time to play for 100 mins straight on a regular basis, and you can do it any time you like (and can find other people to do it), so when you play doesn't factor in like with HNMs.

A few pieces are expensive to upgrade, but if you want good gear you'll find a way to make money, and should already know some ways.

Salvage isn't particularly difficult. I wouldn't call it easy, and there is definitely a significant difference between new or pickup groups and an experienced static. Player skill does play into it as well, there is a significant difference in my group between having my 2 main MNKs in it, and missing even one and having a backup MNK in their spot.

The only impediment is if you're lacking appropriate jobs, it can make it difficult to find a group. I'll admit that I'm at my most elitist when I'm leading Salvage, if you don't have at least 1 of MNK, BRD, TH4, RDM, WHM you're not in my group. That doesn't mean though that other jobs don't work in Salvage, or that any balanced group of six couldn't do Salvage, it just wouldn't necessarily be as efficient in all zones.

If you set your mind to doing Salvage though, there is no reason why you can't put a group together. Either from friends / lsmates who also want to do Salvage, or shouting. Salvage can be done as pickup groups or in a static. My current static I put together by shouting for members. I found some fantastic players that way, and we've been together since February.

Wasn't talking about being lazy here. No, being lazy doesn't deserve an excuse, but... 1. I've tried for months and months on end for certain gear drops, never once seen them. Doesn't make me a gimp player that I'm still having to substitute less desirable pieces of gear, and it doesn't serve your point that some of the must have pieces of gear require so much time and effort and have such low drop rates. Aquiring salvage gear isn't gonna be an overnight experience, and plenty of people are still in this position. 2. I still know players that don't yet have a lvl 80 job even, as well as players who don't have much play time to go out and do everything they'd want to.
 Cerberus.Vaness
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By Cerberus.Vaness 2010-08-04 11:37:31
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Cerberus.Excelior said:
Gear does matter though. Somebody with better gear will perform better. More accurately, gear would detirmine your character's potential, whereas skill would see how close you can get to fullfilling that potential. Zero ammount of skill will make a character with full BLM AH gear out nuke a full morrigan's blm. 1 INT can never do more damage than 2 INT. There are still limits on your character. Now if you don't know how to use that gear then you arent living up to the limits of what your character can do.
hmm I agree and disagree on that.PPL who finish by getting the good gear or being pimp, finish by being the lazy player and get easily pawned by the new players that give their 300%.

A pretty good exemple is this: Ever did the count of pimp character that "fake AFK" in whitegate? :p I have few names in mind
 Cerberus.Excelior
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By Cerberus.Excelior 2010-08-04 11:46:49
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Cerberus.Vaness said:
Cerberus.Excelior said:
Gear does matter though. Somebody with better gear will perform better. More accurately, gear would detirmine your character's potential, whereas skill would see how close you can get to fullfilling that potential. Zero ammount of skill will make a character with full BLM AH gear out nuke a full morrigan's blm. 1 INT can never do more damage than 2 INT. There are still limits on your character. Now if you don't know how to use that gear then you arent living up to the limits of what your character can do.
hmm I agree and disagree on that.PPL who finish by getting the good gear or being pimp, finish by being the lazy player and get easily pawned by the new players that give their 300%. A pretty good exemple is this: Ever did the count of pimp character that "fake AFK" in whitegate? :p I have few names in mind

A lot of people with good gear are tired of doing events with idiots. I'd rather stand around than go wipe to a CFH tiamat with whirlingwind or fail salvage runs with excellence people.
 Fenrir.Terminus
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By Fenrir.Terminus 2010-08-04 11:54:21
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A lot of all of this really makes sense. One thing I'd add is the ability to work well with what is available. I mean, take identical people with proper gear, understands their job/role, and plays it well. If they are looking for say, a SAM for some fight, but only a WAR is available, one might succeed where the other fails. I guess there is a third set who will just shout in WG for hours and hours until the perfect SAM shows up.

The people I consider the most skilled, that I've played with, not only do not "require" a certain job (to a reasonable extent) but also almost never fail when a less than ideal setup is the only option. This applies to gear as well as jobs whatever.

tl;dr: some "1337" players seem better than they are because they only operate in ideal conditions.

Edit* All this assumes everyone is not a failure at their respective jobs.
 Fairy.Basilo
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By Fairy.Basilo 2010-08-04 11:54:45
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Cerberus.Vaness said:
Cerberus.Excelior said:
Gear does matter though. Somebody with better gear will perform better. More accurately, gear would detirmine your character's potential, whereas skill would see how close you can get to fullfilling that potential. Zero ammount of skill will make a character with full BLM AH gear out nuke a full morrigan's blm. 1 INT can never do more damage than 2 INT. There are still limits on your character. Now if you don't know how to use that gear then you arent living up to the limits of what your character can do.
hmm I agree and disagree on that.PPL who finish by getting the good gear or being pimp, finish by being the lazy player and get easily pawned by the new players that give their 300%. A pretty good exemple is this: Ever did the count of pimp character that "fake AFK" in whitegate? :p I have few names in mind


Gear vs skill.... my only opinion on this really is for melee gear matters more somewhat than skill than what it means for mage. Example I say im a very good blm yet have 2/5 morri vs my 4/5 usu mnk which is pretty bandwagon now ;; . You can be fairly agressive and on the ball but playing monk well say in merit does mostly come down to the gear/food lets face it. Whereas I strongly believe mage jobs are different and I can sometimes imo outperform blms where when using our best nuke gear they often have zmitts+1 and morri body over me. Possibly not through dmg but through other means in which a blm can assist and they either choose not to or arent too fast (stun/crowncontrol). Often youll find blms stand around alot too or admire their dmg without curing members in other alliances or getting back to resting. I spose this then boils down to how much effort u can be arsed to put into an event. Squeezing every ounce of mp throughout a 4 hour dynamis.... dont think I could ever do that again lol

 Fairy.Basilo
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By Fairy.Basilo 2010-08-04 11:59:32
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"some "1337" players seem better than they are because they only operate in ideal conditions."

Kinda good point tbh follows on from what I said about understanding monster weakenesses as blm same for all jobs really. I personally excel at east ron s colibri or lesser colibri sync 36-42 or 55-58 as pup, but endgame I have used it very little and my auto often dies. I often only use jobs in my comfort zone and often fall back on using blm where i know where i stand. I only use sam for isnm3000 too not mnk.

Although having said that ive always been "against" using my sam for penta on colibri too bandwagon imo much rather take mnk and do less dmg i guess but thats me.
 Cerberus.Vaness
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By Cerberus.Vaness 2010-08-04 12:04:43
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Fairy.Basilo said:
Cerberus.Vaness said:
Cerberus.Excelior said:
Gear does matter though. Somebody with better gear will perform better. More accurately, gear would detirmine your character's potential, whereas skill would see how close you can get to fullfilling that potential. Zero ammount of skill will make a character with full BLM AH gear out nuke a full morrigan's blm. 1 INT can never do more damage than 2 INT. There are still limits on your character. Now if you don't know how to use that gear then you arent living up to the limits of what your character can do.
hmm I agree and disagree on that.PPL who finish by getting the good gear or being pimp, finish by being the lazy player and get easily pawned by the new players that give their 300%. A pretty good exemple is this: Ever did the count of pimp character that "fake AFK" in whitegate? :p I have few names in mind
Gear vs skill.... my only opinion on this really is for melee gear matters more somewhat than skill than what it means for mage. Example I say im a very good blm yet have 2/5 morri vs my 4/5 usu mnk which is pretty bandwagon now ;; . You can be fairly agressive and on the ball but playing monk well say in merit does mostly come down to the gear/food lets face it. Whereas I strongly believe mage jobs are different and I can sometimes imo outperform blms where when using our best nuke gear they often have zmitts+1 and morri body over me. Possibly not through dmg but through other means in which a blm can assist and they either choose not to or arent too fast (stun/crowncontrol). Often youll find blms stand around alot too or admire their dmg without curing members in other alliances or getting back to resting. I spose this then boils down to how much effort u can be arsed to put into an event. Squeezing every ounce of mp throughout a 4 hour dynamis.... dont think I could ever do that again lol

I agree there especially on blm side, dont have any morri piece myself.Did buy pimp gears over AH.but im still /emoing at these JPs with morri body and nq staff/nq rainbow cape and penitents rope.But in some jobs like rdm (besides the enfeeb side) and whm or brd, the gear isnt really needed, its more the ability to the person to react fast that is involved.Who cares if you got dalmy ect if you cant even keep ppl away from death/hasted/refreshed.
 Unicorn.Nymphadora
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By Unicorn.Nymphadora 2010-08-04 12:34:36
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Fenrir.Terminus said:
some "1337" players seem better than they are because they only operate in ideal conditions.

QFT. Part of being a skilled player is knowing what to expect out of the mobs you're going up against, and how to use the jobs/gear/players you have available to you without having to use the cookie-cutter sam/brd/rdm sort of setup to be successful.

Skill > gear as long as you know how to use the gear on you to get the stats you need.

Also, the ability to work with others. I've seen people who were both bad players who didn't know wth they were doing but wanted to argue it, and well geared/experienced "veteran" players who just flat out refused to work easily with less experienced players, or unless they got what they wanted, and I've seen both situations cause trouble. Being unwilling to work together as a team isn't showing your skill, it's showing selfishness. A party that's fighting over a piece of gear, competing with each other, taking offence to stupid stuff, refusing to take orders they don't want to, etc. isn't gonna get anything done. On the other hand, a complete clusterfuck of a party that can take what little they have in spells, ws and other job abilities, and gear, and work together flawlessly, can very likely come away with the win.
 Lakshmi.Aeyela
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By Lakshmi.Aeyela 2010-08-04 13:02:22
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In a Summoner burn today someone questioned the sync for not being /COR. Berated them for their 'illogical' choice, that kind of thing. Dropped party, had a wobbly, was talked into coming back and, of course, subbed COR.

This same person, who preached (with a very elitist, condescending attitude, I might add) about being a good player, only managed to get two Diamond Dusts off. If it weren't for the fact our sync started on Level 13, we would've been at 18 and ***ouf of luck.

I just thought I'd share this ironic moment, because that is most certainly a player with a lack of skill. It's as easy to get three flows off as it is to provoke a monster on WAR5.
 Fenrir.Terminus
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By Fenrir.Terminus 2010-08-04 13:10:27
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I feel bad because when I said "some "1337" players seem better than they are because they only operate in ideal conditions" I didn't picture how bad it would look on it's own.
 Fairy.Basilo
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By Fairy.Basilo 2010-08-04 13:23:52
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Fenrir.Terminus said:
I feel bad because when I said "some "1337" players seem better than they are because they only operate in ideal conditions" I didn't picture how bad it would look on it's own.

Meh it can be interpretted in many ways, dont think anyone would get pissed about it though :D
 Lakshmi.Aeyela
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By Lakshmi.Aeyela 2010-08-04 13:25:22
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Fenrir.Terminus said:
I feel bad because when I said "some "1337" players seem better than they are because they only operate in ideal conditions" I didn't picture how bad it would look on it's own.

You're completely right though. A tank is only as good as their support.
 Bahamut.Zorander
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By Bahamut.Zorander 2010-08-04 14:57:52
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Lakshmi.Aeyela said:
Fenrir.Terminus said:
I feel bad because when I said "some "1337" players seem better than they are because they only operate in ideal conditions" I didn't picture how bad it would look on it's own.
You're completely right though. A tank is only as good as their support.
So true..but its funny how many tanks just don't understand that this.

I know this one pld that still talks about how he solo tanked Faf for the whole fight!! What he failed to mention was the 2~3 ppl that cure spammed his *** to keep him alive cuz he blows as a tank.

Not saying you can't be a good tank without good support..but skill can be talked about in a lot of different ways..solo, Pt, Alli, or even lowman..if you can listen, learn and adapt then you are well on your way to being a skilled player.

Well that and giving credit to the support that kept your *** alive..gogogo whm love!
 Shiva.Flionheart
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-08-04 15:01:07
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Leviathan.Pimpchan said:
Bismarck.Dracondria said:
Not having full morrigan doesn't mean you're not skilled or that you're lazy, salvage is just shitty when it comes to drops sometimes so I don't see how that's really important on an application.

Excuse from gimps that never entered salvage. If you do salvage, you get stuff. A skilled RDM will at least want to do salvage for body.

A skilled RDM would be level 80 by now.
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 Bahamut.Zorander
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By Bahamut.Zorander 2010-08-04 15:11:19
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Shiva.Flionheart said:
Leviathan.Pimpchan said:
Bismarck.Dracondria said:
Not having full morrigan doesn't mean you're not skilled or that you're lazy, salvage is just shitty when it comes to drops sometimes so I don't see how that's really important on an application.
Excuse from gimps that never entered salvage. If you do salvage, you get stuff. A skilled RDM will at least want to do salvage for body.
A skilled RDM would be level 80 by now.
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 Unicorn.Nymphadora
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By Unicorn.Nymphadora 2010-08-04 15:16:17
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Shiva.Flionheart said:
Leviathan.Pimpchan said:
Bismarck.Dracondria said:
Not having full morrigan doesn't mean you're not skilled or that you're lazy, salvage is just shitty when it comes to drops sometimes so I don't see how that's really important on an application.

Excuse from gimps that never entered salvage. If you do salvage, you get stuff. A skilled RDM will at least want to do salvage for body.

A skilled RDM would be level 80 by now.

Besides, hasn't a lot of salvage gear been replaced by lvl 76+ gear by now?
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By Lakshmi.Aeyela 2010-08-04 15:17:43
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Unicorn.Nymphadora said:
Besides, hasn't a lot of salvage gear been replaced by lvl 76+ gear by now?

Unfortunately. A few of them still maintain their charm, though.
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By Unicorn.Jewkitten 2010-08-04 15:17:49
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BLM is the one job where gear is equally important to skill.

Because again and again and again i've seen groups fight HNM level things and the BLM, SCH, RDM types are half resisted, 75% resisted, just blowing mana for poor results.

Having the knowledge then the motivation to get whatever gear necessary to floor resists on extremely high end ends gets respect in my book.

The casually lazy "it's just a game" types who mosey into tough fights and get endlessly resisted make me want to choke a ***!>:O
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 Shiva.Flionheart
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By Shiva.Flionheart 2010-08-04 15:24:05
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Pimpchan won't level up to level 80 though, Abyssea is too 'hardcore'
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 Bismarck.Dracondria
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By Bismarck.Dracondria 2010-08-04 17:26:55
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This is pretty awesome and takes skill
 Leviathan.Pimpchan
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By Leviathan.Pimpchan 2010-08-05 08:47:50
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Shiva.Flionheart said:
Leviathan.Pimpchan said:
Bismarck.Dracondria said:
Not having full morrigan doesn't mean you're not skilled or that you're lazy, salvage is just shitty when it comes to drops sometimes so I don't see how that's really important on an application.

Excuse from gimps that never entered salvage. If you do salvage, you get stuff. A skilled RDM will at least want to do salvage for body.

A skilled RDM MNK would be level 80 have capped merits and usukane hands/legs/feet by now.

Fixed.
 
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 Bahamut.Paulus
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By Bahamut.Paulus 2010-08-05 19:23:32
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Speaking from the view of an unskilled player I'd have to say gear, merits and a firm understanding of the game mechanics through experience are parts of what makes a skilled player. Some very old beliefs need to be reevaluated from time to time and some of the definition in the game doesn't always fit the terminology.

The other part is the player's work ethic. That type of stuff requires farming gil, getting odds and ends that put you in a position to excel. I'm very weak in this area as I'm just a lazy *** and am often impressed with guys in full AF running circles around me in specialized situations.


Being skilled in FFXI is a choice. Anyone can do it if they choose to.





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By Bahamut.Darkzell 2010-08-05 20:10:59
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@ Paulus NUBLET
 Caitsith.Omicronceti
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By Caitsith.Omicronceti 2010-08-06 13:20:56
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I think the whole skill in an MMO setting is kind of a moot argument. This is an MMO, it is not designed around the skill of the player like other game genres (shooters, sports games etc), it's designed around keeping you playing. With that being the focus it is inherent in most MMO's that to achieve goal X, Y or Z all you really need is time.

I see terrible players running around all the time in top of the line gear that I know I can outperform, and the only reason is knowledge. I was lucky enough to come across a group of friends when I started playing who stressed knowing not only my job, but all jobs like the back of my hand. That is as close to "skill" as we will come in this game. Anyone can get full salvage pieces with enough time, or full relic with enough time so the "skill" involved in that is irrelevant.
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By Diabolos.Obliterate 2010-08-06 13:36:47
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Bahamut.Paulus said:
Being skilled in FFXI is a choice. Anyone can do it if they choose to.

This isn't true there are people that could try millions of times and not be able to solo seiryu like avesta did. Being truly skilled means players can achieve things that very few other players could. Saying that everyone could be skilled takes alot from the few players that really are.









Some examples of skill
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