WTF!?!

No, I get what you're saying, I just don't think it's so much a windower problem as a "browsing ffxi related sites on the computer you play on without adequate protection" problem. Unless the person was a moron and rushed to download windower from a zip file linked to a site that isn't run by the windower team. I'm sure PC players who use windower are more likely to buy gil or rmt related services, bots, etc. than PC users who strictly don't use windower due to moral reasons, but that also doesn't keep non-windower users or console users from doing things like that too.

I've also known plenty of people who play/browse on the same pc and have never had problems with hacking, that's where knowing your pc and being proactive about protection comes in. I personally use seperate pc's but there are people who don't have that option.

Not only that, but the hacking that just took place, what this thread is sort of relating to, is an internal hacking and ironically, console players are the most at risk of hacking due to it. Because console players are the most likely to conclude that they don't need a token, which is the only thing that would protect them since all other points of protection don't even concern them as they aren't on pc.

Nah me mentioning windower has nothing to do with the initial download or install of windower, you have people who try to download that and then sit on a forum confused until they figure it out, wasn't saying they were screwing themselves over from square one getting the windower, I have it...but I know what I'm doing compared to a general gamer.
It's those same people that are more suseptible, now not in regards to the SE breach or anything like that.
But in regards to this link
[url]http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80487[url]
The SE breach pretty much makes anyone fair game minus the console security token users because the pc security token users can still get reamed.
What I'm saying is if you use a security token on pc and you don't know computers well you are pretty much asking for it. All the other haxxors from the database breach=SE&PO's fault.

If you have an IP address, you can load a keylogger. If you touch a website, that website has the IP address. You need to read through a whole *** load of code, but if you know what you are looking for it is doable.

If you're not using one, you mean?

I completely agree though, the most idiotic thing a pc user can do is to purposely decide not to get a security token when they have access to one. At least with one, it would take a pretty advanced keylogger to get into your account.

And if windower users are confused about something they can always go to windower's forum which is fairly safe and where they'd find most of their information, or maybe ask a friend who knows more, or eventually post here or on another forum if they don't find the answer... but it all goes back to browser security being the main issue. I just assumed you were talking about windower's security in the beginning. XD

Pretty much for the general user that's impossible lol.
So unless you have a separate gaming rig the only real way to be sure is a fresh install which is pretty funny.
Best defense is to just not go to questionable sites related to FFXI though.
Yeah, windower is the ***, I have it on all my pcs, it's just a lot of people who would have normally went console see all the stuff it can do, they get a "tech hard-on" so to speak and then get windower rather than running it on a console if they have one, atleast that was how it was for me :P

I didn't say general users. I said the website. Meaning the owners of the website. Also, when is the last time that you meet a person who knows how to hack any computer programs that is a normal user?

Sorry, misundersood what ya meant, I mean ya tho.
The site owners can put the code in pretty easy, just some basic coding knowledge.
But to have a keylogger that sophisticated enough to get the security token code seems a bit farfetched, unless you have someone actively monitoring it and all which is probably something that happens.
Only way to be safe is to not go to gilseller sites and be careful what FFXI related things you do go to. that and noscript, but most people I know are too dumb to operate something as simple as that, lack of patience is the main reason. And then with that those people that don't have the patience to operate noscript are the same people who probably buy gil because they don't have patience, and then thusly quite a few of them get hacked in the process.

It's people like you who think that hacking a computer is "far fetched" that get hacked. Keyloggers are realtime. What you also need to understand is that everything... EVERYTHING that you do on a computer is logged into that computer permanently. Every keystroke that you take. Every post that you make. It's logged onto your PC and it accessable at any time using the right programs.

I've actually had to reformat my pc before due to that keylogger, if I'd have let it go and just assumed that I wasn't likely to get hacked because of my token, I'd have been hacked. :( I'm just lucky enough to not have been directly involved in any of the SE-side server hackings, which there have been 2 now that I can remember.

-_-
it's far-fetched, that in real time someone is using a keylogger and then logging in and stealing all yer ***.
hurkadur keyloggers are real time, why wouldn't they be?
How the hell is a keylogger hacking?
I used a goddamned keylogger when I was twelve so I could gain computer access to my schools computers and my dads pc, do you really think people like "me" are gonna get hacked by a keylogger unsuspectingly?
do you have a security token?
you know the window of how long it even works?
it is partially my fault for making you act like a *** though.
You see, I'm sitting here at work, and I wrote that response while I was teching a customers internet issue.
So yeah, fragmented logic in my posts from time to time, but I apologize for that.
Actually forget that.
I say again, it's pretty goddamned hard to get a keylogger to load on to your computer without utilizing scripts.
keyloggers are essentially applications that record every keystroke as you said, to have one installed it's NOT through the IP address(the IP address is essentially an id tag)
The "pages and pages" of code you talk about=source code for the SCRIPT on the page hence NOSCRIPT.
also, how the hell do you get that a keylogger logs everything permanantly?
they probably have these keyloggers custom tailored to activate when a certain application is opened(ffxi, windower, etc)
it doesn't even REALLY have to be real time, lets say you disconnect your internet, does that mean that the keylogger can't record passwords? hell no, it means that it can't send out the information to it's host, does that mean it won't store it? not necessarily, that gets down to coding.
i hate it when people like YOU become so pretentious when you only loosely know something about a subject, if you can do an intellectual checkmate on this i applaud you.
/end unnecessary pretentious rant

I'm done posting on this issue due to this comment.

It's not hacking :/
You aren't bypassing code or getting through backdoors, you inadvertedly load a program on your computer that performs a function.
If keylogging is hacking what the hell is programming?
Seriously, you people.
Python for example is a hacking tool for nubs, you load premade script and run it from your computer, you enter in certain things in certain fields(IP address...etc), that IS hacking, it's weak *** hacking but it's hacking.
You want to know what keyloggers would be considered?
Phishing.

here since you are so tech savvy, i'll quote your probably favorite source of information, wikipedia.
"In the field of computer security, phishing is the criminally fraudulent process of attempting to acquire sensitive information such as usernames, passwords and credit card details by masquerading as a trustworthy entity in an electronic communication."
Albeit they aren't literally stealing your information through forms data or anything it's more of a subsection of phishing.
In all honesty dude, you don't know what you are talking about.

You kelog other peoples' computers. You are obtaining information from their computer. How is obtaining information from someone elses computer NOT hacking.

Ok, explain to me how it is hacking?
Do you alter script and code on their computer?
I guess you are right to an extent, but when I envision hacking, I don't see scriptkiddies using keyloggers as hacking.
Now cracking into SE's security could be hacking, but I'd say that's probably an internal issue.
I don't think low end ***like keyloggers are necessarily going to be considered to be hacking in a standalone set up, used in tandem with other methods, yes it would be. But just that is preposterous.

So, keylogging may have been "hacking" in the 80's and 90's but now it's not really hacking.
If the general user, for example myself at 12 was able to locate, run and operate a keylogger without having a very good knowledge of computers anyone can do it, and if anyone can do it, it's not some magic trick, it's not "hacking" into someones computer, it's essentially datamining.

Yes, very serious.
I only get serious when people are wrong and assume I'm HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE or something.
But yes, this whole conversation can be noted to loltroll though because I generally am a troll regardless as to what I do, just comes natural.
Had to go with the double post to solidify a true KO.
Also, for the viewer.
I get mad when people say that ham and bacon are the same too. bacon is by far superior.

I actually agree I've just been looking for an opportunity to use that picture for like a week! Internet tracking cookies are as much hacking as keyloggers, but Keyloggers are used much more for malicious purposes, usually to Aid in hacking.

*hands 12 year old a gun*

Now whatever he does it's fine because it's not what it is. He doesn't know what he's doing after all.

You are entering someone elses computer to obtain personal information.

Example, because apparently you need to see painted pretty pretty pictures to understand.

Keylog your HRs computer at work and obtain the Social Security numbers. Although it would be very difficult to track a person down doing this if you have no reason to seek... if they aren't actually using the information. It is still possible, but for sake of arguement, go and turn yourself in holding all of these social security numbers and tell them that you stole them from your company and see what they have to say. You have illegally obtained information via. computer... hence hacking.

Edit, nice picture Leonstrife. He should also understand your comment.

I try. Usually in failure though.

lern2read, nubsauce.
refer to my last post and the post before that.
not gonna say this ***again just cuz you can't read.

How is that even a rebuttle?
When did I say operating a firearm was complicated?
Just because you can operate a firearm doesn't make you a police office, murderer, sharpshooter, gunslinger...the potential is endless.
actually thank you, you helped me further prove my point.

also lolwut?
social security numbers?
LOL TECH SUPPORT IS THE GOVERNMENT NAO.
we don't have that on file here man, that's customer service, we only have names, addresses, usernames and sometimes passwords.
Why the hell would I key log my bosses pc?
I don't want to see him cybering with a *** man...jeez.
also your hypothetical is completely rediculous.
I don't think they'd have the words "hacking" in bold, you are talking about the U.S. Judicial system, bureaucracy at it's finest.
They probably have a 30 syllable word set up for just keylogging man.
Hacking was a coined term derived from programming man, you know they are gonna have technical jargon in a trial.

I called it. Man I suck at this.

It's cool dude, both of you probably know FFXI way more than I do so it's all good :D

I thought we were talking about key-loggers?

Most of the people 'hacking' are nothing more then script kiddies.

like when they "hacked" into palins email, guessing a password isn't hacking either people lol.
now bruteforcing a password, that's more like hacking, but it's still essentially scriptkiddies.

Computer Hacking Law & Legal Definition

Computer hacking is broadly defined as intentionally accesses a computer without authorization or exceeds authorized access. Various state and federal laws govern computer hacking.

For real guy, you need to learn your ***. I took programing alone for 4 years, that doesn't include my total of 16 years of all computer courses (programming, specific programs, networking, etc.)