DRK Or MNK Comparisons For Duo/lowman Stuff?

Hello!

I was hoping to get some advice on my first duo/box character, and was leaning DRK or MNK - both jobs I have never played to 99 before. 1st character is a well geared COR and/or RDM, and while synergy would be nice, I'm really just wondering what the pros and cons are for DRK vs MNK when low-manning Omen bosses, Odyssey Gaol T1 & T2, Ambuscade, and Geas Fete.

It's hard to get current information on this discussion because Sakpata is the recent gamechanger for DRK, allowing them to throw on a hybrid set that on paper competes with MNK in both DPS and survivability. But I just have so little experience with both jobs other than watching a Malignance MNK carry an Omen group. Here are a few questions to make it more focused:

1) Are MNK and DRK comparable in terms of DPS and survivability when tanking Omen, Gaol T1 & T2, Ambuscade, and some GF?

2) Is it still the belief that MNK is easier to ramp up and become relevant, while DRK requires further investment, and possibly Apoc and/or Caladbolg? I mainly ask this because I am leaning DRK, but would gladly go MNK if it is significantly easier.

3) What job would benefit the most from +7 Phantom Rolls?

Hopefully this results in nothing but respectful and enthusiastic exchanging of ideas! Thanks for any and all input.

Drk is probably easier to gear now due to Sakpata, maybe?
My group usually use some combination of WAR, MNK, SAM for melee. WAR seems to work well with MNK and SAM. We never really have any need for DRK.

I would think that a Caladbolg DRK would top any parse and is comparable to a MNK in terms of DPS.

MNK does make some fights trivial with Penance. I feel that MNK is kinda easy/safe mode on a lot of stuff.

For Omen, we use MNK and/or WAR. I'm pretty sure a DRK would work just as well.

For this month's Ambu, we do 2x Fencer WARs with Naegling. Again I'm pretty sure a DRK work work great here too.

So far for Gaol, we've been using MNK and Loxotic WAR for the Shark, SAM for the T-Rex. The tree was the most annoying, we had SAM solo SC to proc.

I play PLD, SAM, WAR, MNK, and RNG. I cannot speak about DRK. I do find MNK very impressive; extreme damage, high survivability, and Penance.

From what you wrote, I get the impression that you really like DRK. I don't think you would be disappointed. DRK looks like a fun job. From what I can see, great damage and survivability. You can throw in some Stuns, Bashes, and Tractors every now and then to help out.

First, let's look at the requirements to get either job up to snuff:

For DRK, you will need to wait 45 days to get access to Sheol-Gaol, even if your main has the NM clear already. Augmenting the feet should be a priority if your goal is to create a powerful hybrid DPS, and that's another 4 days minimum(likely more) unless you farm segments in Sheol-A, which is probably awful. So, you're at 50 days from creation minimum to be able to use it in that manner. To really max out a DRK in a hybrid capacity, you need Father Time path B fully augmented. Many people don't consider this, but going from 50 SB to 75 SB cuts your TP given to mob in half. This is an amazing piece for the capacity you are suggesting you'll use your DRK for. It also requires you to clear rhapsodies of vanadiel and spend a considerable amount of gil.

MNK requires WOTG cleared to get access to the malignance BC. This is a grind, but you can still knock it out in a matter of a few days. If your main is well equipped, and you have sufficient free time, you could probably have the malignance MNK at a functional state in a week or 2. Your DRK will still eventually want WOTG done for moonshade earring anyway. You do not really need anything particularly expensive for a malignance MNK to get to it's peak state, especially if you have access to aeonics.

DRK and MNK will be functionally equivalent in both DPS and survivability assuming both are correctly geared toward hybrid. Either will be able to handle the content you've mentioned. Pairing with a COR will not particularly favor either job. You're probably thinking of the chaos roll boost, which does exist, but the synergy isn't enough to choose one job over the other for.

The main tradeoffs to be considered aside from preparation time are the job's unique abilities:
-MNK has penance, which allows additional TP reduction on monsters where every TP move is an existential threat.
-MNK has the option of Mantra will work on everything, while Drain III is not effective against many mobs.
-MNK has the option of Formless Strikes, for cases where you need more magic damage(probably mild if you typically pair with a COR).
-When a mob's melee damage is a considerable concern, counter builds are able to negate the vast majority of it and further reduce TP.

-Drain III provides MUCH more HP than mantra if properly geared and MBed. It can be used on it's own to make moves survivable that otherwise likely would not be.
-Stun is extremely valuable in content where it lands reliably.
-Dread spikes is often overlooked, but it allows you to effectively sit at max HP until a TP goes off on many forms of content. This functionally gives you more HP buffer before dying, as a MNK will usually be sitting 1-2 melee hits below max when a TP goes off.
-When subtle blow is not as necessary, apocalypse can provide a great survivability tool as well.

Week or two to get full Malignance is very random number because it doesn't say how much you assume he plays a day. Most people get it in avg 200-300 runs (tho i know several people breaking 500 or even 1000 runs). 7 runs takes around an hour of casual farming(including getting 70 merits back. Faster if you have good aoe burning job)? That's 30-45hours.

It's worth to note that Mantra has rather low uptime (even with successful random deal), while drain III can be up all the time. Drain III can also be reapplied in case of dispel, but much weaker because without boost from JA. Mantra on the other hand is party buff, drain is just for DRK.
Survivability peak on Dark with Drain III and Dread Spikes is also way higher if target is not resisting those effects. 7000-9999hp and 5000-7750hp shield from Dread Spikes is WAY more than what MNK can offer. It won't always work tho.

I would argue that Apocalypse is better hybrid weapon than Father Time. You can simply just power through damage taken with it. Ofc when you face undeads Apocalypse won't work, but I would still make this weapon first, then go for FT if Apocalypse won't be enough for your needs.

Monk is mostly limited to blunt damage and DRK mostly limited to slashing (DRK has blunt option with Loxotic, but without access to higher Fencer or tp bonus offhand this option is significant DPS drop). DRK has more versatile self skillchaining options, but MNK has generally stronger Light skillchain (tho this can be even out or maybe even pushed in DRK favor with NyameB?)

DRK needs much more utility sets and pieces that enhance or augment it's abilities/spells.

MNK wanting to be also safe during WS will need to sacrifice DPS for it. DRK not really. Sakpata and nyameB are among both best WS pieces and best survivability pieces.

There is so much more, but I'm already tired typing this on phone lol

Father Time isn't really that great.

The 25 SBII seems attractive, but it's partially offset by the 50% follow-up attacks making you feed more TP pre-SBII, and has only decent damage even with that. In the amount of time it would take to be able to get an R25 Father Time (unlocking Dynamis D, buying a FT, either spending obscenely high amounts of gil on items or buying several Dynamis-D RP runs if your server is still selling), you could instead buy a Dagon Breastplate and Niqmaddu (especially since orbs are cheaper than ever). When combined with a more potent weapon and those two items, you get similar TP feed rates (75 SB with faster swings vs 65 SB with slower swings), but more damage and (usually) less effort. The only real benefit is allowing you to use Sakpata body and keep high SB, but I find there aren't very many occasions where 4/5 Sakpata and MEVA food isn't enough to resist what you're fighting but 5/5 Sakpata and MEVA food is, especially if getting proper bar and/or carol support for the nastiest threats.

If you have faith in your healer to keep the DRK topped off, so you don't need Apocalypse, the survivability bonus from Caladbolg is also an aspect that I see many overlook; the 70 VIT (which then gives 105 defense) is basically another 7-8% or so physical damage reduction in most cases, and can prevent physical one or two shots as well as reduce attrition damage, making Dread Spikes last longer between recasts as well as extend cureskin. The 70 VIT also reduces how much damage you take from critical hits, though there's not really been any testing on how potent it is.

Regardless, this is all mostly long-term stuff unless you're starting off with a couple hundred million to sink into DRK immediately; just 5/5 Sakpata and a baseline decent Drain III set (including Empy legs and Relic head) would be good enough to get you started.

You pretty much need to unlock dyna D regardless on any worthwhile character, and they specifically mentioned omen as desirable content(meaning they need rhapsodies done and that only leaves a couple CoP missions and an hour of dyna v1 clears). Not to mention the 45 day cooldown on Sheol ROE gives plenty of time for missions anyway.

Father Time with heroism is under 100m, while Caladbolg all-in is 190m(before any cost obtaining the empyrean items, time on NMs, or paying for w3 clear if applicable). Any reasonable set is likely to end up at 1.45+ hits/round, adding father time will bump that to 1.95+(~34.4% more swings).

With this in mind, if you do obtain a Dagon and make that sacrifice, you will come out ahead as 10 SBII only reduces TP by ~28.6%. Adding in weaponskills, it likely goes back to favoring Father Time as you'll have significantly increased WS frequency and notably more SB on WS. However, the Dagon setup will also be dropping below cap on SB1 or DT without other sacrifices. Further, you lose 53 m.eva, which amounts to 26% resist rate when off floor and below ceiling. This is not a small sacrifice.

I would not argue that Father Time is the go-to weapon for all situations, or even that the average single-boxer DRK should make it before Caladbolg. But, given the person is aiming to gear a dualbox that will function as a hybrid melee, it is much more likely to help them reach their goals than Caladbolg in my opinion.

A set like this is relatively easy to obtain in short order and caps PDT, caps SB without auspice and can be easily modified to take advantage of auspice, and has solid amounts of HP and general DT:

ItemSet 378044

Of course, you're right that it heavily depends on means. I fully agree that Sakpata is a must, and everything else is going to vary with the person's wallet and resources. An ideal group is likely not going to be using Father Time(or heavy SB sets in general) on anything besides Mboze. But, a dualboxer using a RDM or trust healer is going to see extreme benefits from reducing TP moves. If you want the MNK experience on DRK, subtle blow has to be a part of that, whether or not it includes FT.

To answer your questions directly.

1)
Both are pretty comparable in terms of DPS. Of course, this does depend on gear/support. Both are murder machines and do it quite well.

2)
DRK is a pretty demanding job for gear. Apoc is cheap, cala is not. Then you need your WS Set, a good drain Set, a dreadspikes set, and probably others. These are all full swaps, not just a single item for JA activation.

I can't speak for mnk, and what they need for gear. Vere (empy) for mnk is ideal, but I believe godhands (aeonic) are nice and technically free if you can get them. I do believe its a bit more forgiving on sets, but again, I can't confirm.

3)
You'd probably find yourself going RDM over COR tbh. Buffs from a cor are nice, but enfeebles, haste, cures from a RDM will go so much further. That being said, they would both benefit about the same from a +7 cor.

Personal note:
Chance are you are going to have either your cor/rdm or your mnk/drk on more of an "auto" mode. If the one to be more auto, mnk is going to be the better option. DRK requires a lot of focus to really play. Sure you could have it cata spam and be fine, but setting up a good drian 3 is a pita when you are enfeebling stuff on rdm.

I three-box with a brd and geo. I've thought about adding a rdm to the mix, but I honestly don't have the attention span/multi-tasking required for rdm. So I'll likely do a WHM as my 4th. I'd say a COR, but I honestly don't need any more buffs with these two.

Thank you everyone for the detailed replies. I think this gives me enough of a push to give DRK a try. Maybe it sounds weird, but I do like investing in a job and watching it grow in strength as you gradually invest time, and having Relic and Empy weapons as goals actually sounds like a lot of fun. The idea of 7k HP, armor plated, scythe-wielding taru sounds awesome.

For a starter weapon, would the Ambu weapons - specifically G. Axe or Scythe be decent? Or should I go with Montante +1 instead?

Go with the ambu G.axe.

Gaxe is awesome in situation where you can keep drain III and 5000hp. It has nice multistep darkness skillchain option and armor break is great def down, especially for low man.

Right now I would say the the Ambuscade Great Axe (Lycurgos) is the best weapon to start playing Dark Knight with.

The way its TP bonus works gives players an incentive to build good drain habits from on offensive perspective, instead of a purely defensive one.

Its often the top DRK weapon against high defense targets through the combination of Armor Break and Steel Cyclone's 50% attack bonus. Both new players and players doing small group content will find themselves attack uncapped more often than, say, a lifelong Drk with the backing of a Dynamis[D] alliance.

Its Drk's top weapon for physical AoE damage. OP specifically mentioned Omen, and I can personally attest to how satisfying it is to Fell Cleave huge groups of Omen mobs while on seemingly limitless HP and Dread Spikes.

Steel Cyclone and Upheaval are both excellent weapon skills, chain them to each other and you eventually get Darkness SCs.

Little note, if you have ignominy gauntlets +2 or ignominy gauntlets +3 you can do Weapon Bash to Keen Edge for a relatively low damage compression SC with which to magic burst Drain 3 off of, for when you know you are going to need as much HP as you can possibly get in the near future.

Lycurgos is, in my opinion, the #1 weapon new Dark Knights should be starting on. Other weapons can come later, depending on what you think you need to focus on.

All three!!! Ambu Gaxe is super fun, but don't be afraid to get a mont or another G.Sword also. Having multiple weapon options is certainly one of drk's strengths. A pain in the butt, but still a strength.

I'd certainly work on the Ambu Gaxe, Mont, Apoc, and Neagling first. After that, work towards a cala/lib while collecting anything else along the way.

For an odd noteworthy weapon, I'd recommend getting a Twilight Scythe. It's RARE I use it, but having access to non-elemental damage has come in handy a few times for me.

I think it's really depends as they both have similar DPS. Ideally, a proper tank like pld or run with a Smn as DD would probably do a much better job if all you want is the win.

Tldr, imo, versatility pays. Drk is more flexible than Mnk for a lot of situations so it's a much more useful job if you have the drive to deck it out with multiple weapons. Mnk is a lot easier to gear than Drk as you only need God Hands to be functional.

Omen:

Overall, Drk does it a bit better than Mnk for Omen because they get more attack from trait, good AOE WS and main job Arcane Circle. They can also get more buffs to HP for certain fight. Mnk can also boost their HP but not as much.

However, Mnk has certain advantages when it comes to TP feeding. It's really noticable when TP attack frequency is less than 1/2 of the time.

Ambuscade:

I personally think Mnk is generally the better choice here but it's a toss up really. Ambu is more or less gimmicky and sometimes you want jobs that can do certain things like high white damage or ranged attack. I feel that Mnk gets called whenever there is a fight you need lots of HP, low buffs or no WS allowed. Dark gets called sometimes for Arcana Killer.

Odyssey:

Drk. Because they can use multiple weapon types.

DRK can use Loxotic, but you won't make more DPS with it, than with Calad or Liberator with 50% slash resist.

You will on mobs with greater than 50% slash resist, though.