Why Not Aug. Taikogane In Offhand?

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Why not Aug. Taikogane in Offhand?
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By magik 2020-02-29 16:02:15
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Just wondering why almost no one is using a Taikogane Augmented with Occ. attacks Twice?
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By Pantafernando 2020-02-29 16:19:20
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Accuracy.

Plus most sets nowaday are heavily oriented to triple attack, and there is the order of proc with multiatttacks and OAX
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By Shichishito 2020-02-29 16:20:32
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cause almost nobody plays nin.
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 Leviathan.Draugo
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2020-02-29 16:33:14
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That and OAX weapons only work for the one hand, vs da/ta/qa working for both.
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By Pantafernando 2020-02-29 16:49:50
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I thought the WKR weapon oat stats do worked in offhand. Offhanding those was common back then.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-02-29 16:58:40
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Ninja already attacks fast and multi enough that the oat is actually a DPS loss due to the low accuracy from skill. That 115 katana is even inferior to kujaku+1. No reason to use that weapon.
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 Lakshmi.Kyera
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By Lakshmi.Kyera 2020-02-29 17:55:32
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Pantafernando said: »
I thought the WKR weapon oat stats do worked in offhand. Offhanding those was common back then.

He means the "occ. attacks twice" only applies to the offhand, it won't make your main hand attack twice, so the bonus only applies to the one hand.
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By magik 2020-02-29 17:59:21
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Katana Skill only comes from Main hand, So that's not relevant. it has more dmg then kujaku+1 and has Crit. hit +2 and another aug slot..and I'm good on accuracy
Not sure how kujaku+1 would be better..
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By Pantafernando 2020-02-29 18:11:32
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The +skill affect the accuracy of the hand using the weapon. You have 2 accuracy value, main and offhand. So using taikogane in offhand means you have 100 acc less compared to a 119 mainhand. Thats where lies all discussion about kraken club or tp bonus offhand as viable, if you can make up having an almost blind offhand.
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 Valefor.Yandaime
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By Valefor.Yandaime 2020-02-29 19:09:30
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Panta is correct, there’s actually a very lengthy set of discussions surrounding Thibron for RDM and BLU and Centovente for THF and DNC.

You have to compensate for the missed ACC from the offhand
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 Leviathan.Draugo
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2020-02-29 19:10:07
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That and having a da/ta/qa weapon instead will be better for WS. While the initial hit (or 5 depending on how many hits the ws is) will be main hand potent, the remaining hits will be weaker with that type of offhand. Also, and this really only applies to Kclub, the extra hits can interfere with others sorts of multihits traits. Max 8 swings, so again, only really matters with kclubs, especially if you main hand it. Just a bit of trivia for you, not a relevant concern these days.

I guess if it had an insane proc rate might be viable if, as others have pointed out, accuracy isn't an issue.
 Asura.Sirris
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By Asura.Sirris 2020-02-29 19:24:36
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Honestly the WKR weapons with OAT aren't bad to start with as a fresh 99, and for lower-tier content as an offhand to a 119 weapon it's livable for a while. Once you can equip it Kujaku +1 is a 119 version that again, isn't that bad. These aren't weapons for high-tier content though, for the reasons that people have already said. They do nothing for your WS damage and, once you are geared up, your QA/TA/DA are so high that the Occasionally Attacks Twice doesn't add much to your TP gain.

OAT has a couple of niche uses but it's devauled as a stat these days.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2020-03-02 02:20:13
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In addition to what has already been said, I think where OAT weapons used to excel was in the TP gain.
My impression is that TP gain ain't an issue anymore most of the time.
If anything you have TP overflow lol.
Given how skewed towards WS the "Melee : WS" damage ratios are, it's tipically better to focus on stuff that's gonna either synergize better with the Multiattack you already have or stuff that's gonna help with WS Damage without hurting too much TP gain. Which is why TP bonus offhand Katana can be nice.
But also a weapon with very high mods (perf Ochu, aug Kanaria) etc.


On the topic of TP bonus offhand Katana. NIN doesn't have it as easy as other jobs to cap acc on stuff with really high eva checks. Or rather, you need to accept more sacrifices than other jobs.
In THEORY you can exploit Innin, and when you do acc isn't an issue, but in a lot of content innin isn't realistically something you can rely on to keep your acc capped.

For instance I think the TP bonus offhand Katana is not a good offhand for Heishi Shorinken because of the TP overflow I mentioned above.
It can be nice if you wanna mainhand Naegling though, which is sadly our best damage option atm.
Personally I refuse to do it because of stupid reasons, but it's undeniable how much Nagling can bump NIN's damage up atm, especially with a TP offhand Katana.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-03-02 06:32:40
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Asura.Sechs said: »
It can be nice if you wanna mainhand Naegling though, which is sadly our best damage option atm.
Personally I refuse to do it because of stupid reasons,

It's not "stupid reasons" to say "this isn't right, why the hell is sword stronger than katana on ninja...", Sechs. I'm the same way. We play ninja to use katanas and disappear and use shoryukens and throw ninja stars. They just need to fix it like they did for monk, because it's clearly flawed. :(
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2020-03-02 06:50:19
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Well yeah, I feel the same way... but technically it has to be said Naegling is the best option for damage on NIN atm.
It's quite preposterous if you ask me, but that's how things are :-(
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By Pantafernando 2020-03-02 10:12:23
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I think its more because how strong savage can be and how questionable are katana WS in terms of dmg than the sword per se
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2020-03-02 14:48:01
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Pantafernando said: »
I think its more because how strong savage can be and how questionable are katana WS in terms of dmg than the sword per se
I'd say it's both honestly. Savage Blade it's a very powerful WS by itself, but it's the synergy with stuff like Naegling that makes it insane even on a job with a native low sword skill like NIN.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-03-02 15:10:49
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If blade ten and shun could hit Savage blade and resolution numbers, I wouldn't even trip. That ninja update gotta be coming soon✊✊
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By SimonSes 2020-03-02 16:40:02
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Pantafernando said: »
I think its more because how strong savage can be and how questionable are katana WS in terms of dmg than the sword per se
I'd say it's both honestly. Savage Blade it's a very powerful WS by itself, but it's the synergy with stuff like Naegling that makes it insane even on a job with a native low sword skill like NIN.

I dont think that TP bonus offhand is as viable for NIN as it is for DNC or BLU, which makes Aeonic and Blade: Ten a better option, than Savage Blade with Naegling.

Also, even if TP bonus is viable, it's not only a matter of WS damage, but also TP gain and whole DPS. White damage might be lower in proportion to WS damage, but the advantage of Aeonic/119Katana over Naegling/TPbonus is significant in both white damage and tp gain speed (especially that NIN has Daken).
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By Asura.Sechs 2020-03-03 01:12:49
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SimonSes said: »
I dont think that TP bonus offhand is as viable for NIN as it is for DNC or BLU
and RDM, yes, it's the very first thing I said in my previous post.
Kinda depends what we're talking about, amount of sacrifices needed to compensate for the lack of acc etc.
For instance I think it's pretty viable in W1 and W2.
Can't say for myself 'cause I don't have a TP bonus Katana but people in my LS were parsing >95% roughly in W1 and W2 and doing nice damage, so I'd say it's viable at least there. Very skeptic on the viability of that in stuff like, for instance, W3 Divergence.

I did test Naegling without OH TP bonus Katana and even without that it still outparsed my R1 Heishi Shorinken using Shun or Ten.
I don't even have a specific Savage Blade WS set, I think I was just using my Ten one lol.

Parsed 2 dynamis runs. Did half of W1 and W2 with Naegling, the other half with R1 Heishi Shorinken and Savage Blade still solidly outparsed my Aeonic Katana damage.
So sad Q_Q


Also I might misremembering things now and mixing it up with some hours of Ambuscade Parse a few months ago, but I seem to recall my Ranged attack average acc was insanely low sadly.
I guess it happens when you're not using Sushi, no Precision, No Torpor, no Hunter's Roll and the only racc you get from Buffs is from Honor March.
I could cap acc np on both hands, but good luck with Racc and Daken procs.

Not sure I got your point on the Racc topic when you compare R1 Heishi vs Naegling though, not like Heishi has Racc on it, does it?



edit:
Yeah I'm now leaning to think the Daken parse I'm talking about was from the Mamool Ambuscade month and not from Divergence.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2020-03-03 09:30:16
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Asura.Sechs said: »
I did test Naegling without OH TP bonus Katana and even without that it still outparsed my R1 Heishi Shorinken using Shun or Ten.
I don't even have a specific Savage Blade WS set, I think I was just using my Ten one lol.

Parsed 2 dynamis runs. Did half of W1 and W2 with Naegling, the other half with R1 Heishi Shorinken and Savage Blade still solidly outparsed my Aeonic Katana damage.
So sad Q_Q

See, this is the part about the whole sword vs katana discussion that REALLY bugs me. It's not just a specific unique scenario we're talking about where Naegling/sword Savage flourishes; if that were the case I wouldn't be that bothered (For example, if fighting blunt weak opponents, I obviously expect hand to hand to be better with the appropriate buffs). It's the fact that even WITHOUT using a TP BONUS offhand, it's still able to compete with or flat out beat Ninja's primary weapons and all weapon skills except for a few scenarios (blade hybrids). I would be totally ok if Naegling/hitaki barely beat katana builds if buffed to the max. But it's just beating it without making any modifications to sets or buffs. Insane.

And I get the role of katana, it's the in between part of dagger and sword, where damage is lower than sword but lower delay, but stronger than dagger but usually higher delay. So sword is supposed to do more damage. No problem. But not on ninja. when the main hand option for Ninja's best damage is an inferior weapon class, that is just silly. And though it's probably incidental side effect, it's kind of insulting when Ninja's best main and offhand options aren't even katanas. I remember when someone suggested I should go sword build on Ninja for damage and I refused just because it's preposterous lol. As right as it is, can't make sense of that.
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By SimonSes 2020-03-03 13:56:56
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Parsed 2 dynamis runs. Did half of W1 and W2 with Naegling, the other half with R1 Heishi Shorinken and Savage Blade still solidly outparsed my Aeonic Katana damage.
So sad Q_Q


Also I might misremembering things now and mixing it up with some hours of Ambuscade Parse a few months ago, but I seem to recall my Ranged attack average acc was insanely low sadly.
I guess it happens when you're not using Sushi, no Precision, No Torpor, no Hunter's Roll and the only racc you get from Buffs is from Honor March.
I could cap acc np on both hands, but good luck with Racc and Daken procs.

Not sure I got your point on the Racc topic when you compare R1 Heishi vs Naegling though, not like Heishi has Racc on it, does it?

I dont see how you Savage was higher without TP bonus. It's 30%STR/30%DEX vs 50%STR/50%MND, so it should be around the same.
Now fTP will always be higher with Heishi vs Naegling. Let's say you WS at avg 1250TP, so effective 1500 with Savage Naegling and 2000 Heishi Ten.

Not sure how much WSD you have, but lets say 50%.
Savage: (7.125 * 1.5 + 2) * 1.15 = 14.590
Ten: 11.5 * 1.5 + 1 = 18.25

It's not even close, so I think you was simply way below attack cap and Naegling's attack bonus is what made your Savage Blade stronger.

Now let's talk about Daken.
What make Katana much better for Daken is delay. Daken TP gain is not based on main weapon delay, so if you have shorter rounds, you will daken more for same TP (+ Heishi has 10stp more). Another thing is that you should offhand SU5 for Heishi, especially when you clearly lacks attack. SU5 has racc +50, which is very often overlooked.
Daken is very important part of your TP gain. It has 79% proc rate with +2 neck (which is essential gear for it too, so if you lack it, that's a huge loss). Lastly gearing for racc is VERY easy on NIN. First of all NIN has A+ in throwing. Second of all Daken has +100 native racc bonus. Third of all two superior TP sets for NIN have a lot of racc. Kendatsuba set has just slightly less racc than acc and Malignance has the same amount of +acc and +racc. Again it's overlooked by many NIN players. All those should put your racc at similar or even higher level than your acc.

So generally TP gain and white damage on NIN with Katanas should be much higher and WS damage without TP bonus should also be higher, unless you are not attack capped, then Savage might win, but I doubt it would make overall DPS higher.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2020-03-03 14:37:15
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SimonSes said: »
I dont see how you Savage was higher without TP bonus.
No clue, just reporting what Scoreboard said on 2 full runs.
I had to see it for myself after LS buddies reported similar results and I didn't trust them.

Quote:
so if you have shorter rounds, you will daken more for same TP
Oh I see your point.
Wanna check my racc in Dynamis next time I go on NIN.
I remembered that the experience I reported before was in Ambuscade after all, not Divergence.
Our acc buffs were Madrigalx2 and Honor March, I didn't use Sushi, Racc was around 50%, bit lower iir. Melee acc was capped.

Quote:
SU5 has racc +50, which is very often overlooked.
Shigi has Racc+50 too and it's my default choice when I need acc.
I OH perf Ochu otherwise (just ~29 racc)

Quote:
so if you lack it, that's a huge loss)
Have it of course ;-)

Quote:
Lastly gearing for racc is VERY easy on NIN.
Not sure if it's easy or not, without sacrifice I mean, but I normally use multiple HQ Kendatsuba pieces which also do offer Racc.
Still was far from capped in that Ambu but, as I mentioned, I'll check again Dynamis next time ^^

Quote:
unless you are not attack capped
Pretty confident nobody in my group is, except maybe on the Red Eyes NMs.
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By SimonSes 2020-03-03 14:58:19
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Pretty confident nobody in my group is, except maybe on the Red Eyes NMs.

That probably what pushed Savage higher, but still even with slightly higher Savage I doubt overall dps would be higher with Sword option.

Obviously we are also talking about so called ws spaming part of playing NIN. If we actually take into consideration how nin is usually played and how big part of dps is skillchain damage, then Sword is way behind.
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By Asura.Sechs 2020-03-03 16:19:09
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I don't have the logs saved so I might be wrong, but I seem to recall the WSD difference was at least ~20% in favour of Savage Blade.
Now... I guess white damage was lower and WS frequency might have been lower? I don't remember the overall DPS numbers but the DPS % with Naegling build was higher, probably less than 20% higher? You might be right on this, I don't remember sorry.


And about the SC I dunno. I mean I get your point, nothing to say against it, but what do you consider as "how NIN is usually played"? Because in my book it's "usually played" like every other simple DD. Engage, get TP, spam WS, that's it more or less lol.

The end-game group content I mostly do with LS is
Divergence (twice a week)
Omen OU runs
Aeonic Meleeburn

Aside from a couple of peculiar T4 fights, normally it's the same thing. Get buffed > engage > WS > rinse and repat. Lol at SCs in these scenarios.
Not sure if this rings a bell for you, but this is how I play most (all?) of my DPS jobs.
If I'm solo it's a different story of course but I'm not sure I would say that's how a job is "usually" played °-°
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2020-03-03 17:30:02
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I get Simon's point about "how NIN is usually played" in that NIN is pretty good at taking advantage of SCs with our good katana weaponskills, even if not doing solo SCs (Metsu is great for SC utility, Shun/Ten/Hi do well too depending on what other WS your party members are using).

Even in a relatively spammy situation, katana WS is more likely to get a good chunk of SC damage without even trying that hard. For instance: have a lot of other people using Savage Blade? Blade: Shun is going to get a lot of light SCs, even without having to do some super-coordinated multi-step. I often find that in situations like Dyna, that's enough to make Shun a better overall performer when including SC damage.

EDIT: Additionally, even if you aren't the one getting credit on the parse because others close the SC, it can definitely help overall alliance DPS to throw in a WS that actually chains with other people (like using Shun alongside a bunch of Savage Blade users). Extra SCs are extra alliance DPS and faster/easier wins, even if your personal DPS is slightly lower than if you had also been spamming Savage with no SC.

I think people consistently underestimate NIN white damage too, which is meaningful when you're talking about using offhands like TP Bonus katana (DMG:49 even when it doesn't whiff) or Shigi (DMG:98) versus something like Fudo Masamune (DMG:154). Especially so when you're hitting a lot of crits, which NIN is well suited to do with Innin, Kendatsuba gear, etc. (to say nothing of the huge increase in white damage if you're ever using Empy). Yes, we live in a WS DAMAGE IS THE ONLY THING age, but NIN is up there for jobs that get a decent amount of DPS from white damage - it's no MNK or THF in that regard, but not far behind them.

Personally, I've had some decent Naegling/SB performance... but I do usually find katana gives me better numbers in most situations, especially when you account for SCs.
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 Leviathan.Draugo
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By Leviathan.Draugo 2020-03-03 17:34:59
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All I'm saying is:

Katanas4Life. You ain't a NIN otherwise. ;p

Unless it's abyssea red proc season, then all the weapons are in fashion.
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