Top 5 RMEAs To Rank 15 And Why

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Top 5 RMEAs to rank 15 and why
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By Afania 2019-08-28 01:18:04
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Asura.Weinberg said: »
Afania said: »
evis is bad without tauret

no u

Ok if you say so. Feel free to spam evis without tauret and lose parse to other DDs that uses much stronger ws. I dont care about your $13 a month lol.
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By Asura.Weinberg 2019-08-28 01:30:05
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Afania said:
Weinberg said:
I don't play DNC, but giving out advice like "terp is only worth it if you build 3k tp before pull and even then it's not even better damage than other options"
I didnt say that. Stop putting words in my mouth or read my point wrong. Please.
Oh is that so?

Afania said: »
I personally don't see terp worth the price tag...
I guess this one was just an offhand statement you didn't really mean.

Afania said: »
There's one situation that I see terp will shine.

1) you can pop AM3 before engage. Maybe something like Escha.
2) You can't offhand cento at all. Aka not SV zerg.
3) You aren't using grand pas. Aka not 1 time short zerg.
4) You have many other people spamming ws so SC dmg doesn't matter.
5) You don't have any war in same pt doing warcry, nor smn doing Crystal blessing.

If you can fulfill all 5 conditions above then yes, I see terp being the strongest option. But how often does that happen.
You must've been playing devil's advocate here or something maybe I should read the context surrounding this post.

Afania said: »
People like to make an argument about "dps in hybrid" but that sounds like forcing a situation to make a weapon favorable. In real game play I am not going to default an inferior weapon and start with hybrid the whole time.
Oh...

Afania said: »
I would rank terp maybe somewhere in the middle in rema ranking, below liberator, Tiz, DP etc.

I mean, if you main the job and look very hard for it I'm pretty sure you will run into a situation that favors terp eventually. I'm not saying it's horrible tier. I only said it doesn't worth the price tag compare with other options overall.
I'm so sorry for misrepresenting you in my earlier posts.
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By Afania 2019-08-28 01:38:06
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Asura.Weinberg said: »
Afania said:
Weinberg said:
I don't play DNC, but giving out advice like "terp is only worth it if you build 3k tp before pull and even then it's not even better damage than other options"
I didnt say that. Stop putting words in my mouth or read my point wrong. Please.
Oh is that so?
Afania said: »
I personally don't see terp worth the price tag...
I guess this was just an offhand statement you didn't really mean.

Afania said: »
There's one situation that I see terp will shine.

1) you can pop AM3 before engage. Maybe something like Escha.
2) You can't offhand cento at all. Aka not SV zerg.
3) You aren't using grand pas. Aka not 1 time short zerg.
4) You have many other people spamming ws so SC dmg doesn't matter.
5) You don't have any war in same pt doing warcry, nor smn doing Crystal blessing.

If you can fulfill all 5 conditions above then yes, I see terp being the strongest option. But how often does that happen.
You must've been playing devil's advocate here or something maybe I should read the context surrounding this post.

Afania said: »
People like to make an argument about "dps in hybrid" but that sounds like forcing a situation to make a weapon favorable. In real game play I am not going to default an inferior weapon and start with hybrid the whole time.
Oh...

Afania said: »
I would rank terp maybe somewhere in the middle in rema ranking, below liberator, Tiz, DP etc.

I mean, if you main the job and look very hard for it I'm pretty sure you will run into a situation that favors terp eventually. I'm not saying it's horrible tier. I only said it doesn't worth the price tag compare with other options overall.
I'm so sorry for misrepresenting your posts.

Its alright.

I said
"I personally don't see terp worth the price tag"

That does not have equal meaning as
"it's not even better damage than other options"

I listed when a terp will be the better choice than other options, which is not solo play unless mob doesnt take sc dmg. Someone said its best for solo play, which I disagree because I believe aeneas is best for solo. All the math I have and numbers provided by baniak suggest aeneas is the strongest option if you just want to 4 step a mob down solo.

Thats the point me and baniak dont agree on. Anyways. Lets just move on.
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2019-08-28 02:08:58
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From my experience grinding Escha NM's, just spamming Rudra was superior than multi-step SC, unless it's a bonus SC damage mob, simply because of how strong Twashtar r15 makes the WS. Evis is crit-gimmick mobs, or "I don't have buffs but want to pretend to deal damage" scenarios.
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2019-08-28 02:37:16
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For dancers focusing more on linking their weaponskills with others is very vital, because they have the highest Skillchain Damage in game.

Nevertheless, spamming Rudra during Zerg is also valid, because of how it’s designed. it links with many weaponskills and benefits greatly from TP overflow.

If anything, this whole debate about Terpsichore being overly superior is not going to change the fact that:
  • Phyrric Kleos is less flexible than Rudra’s Storm in any game play scenario.


  • Terpsichore is indeed a great weapon to have, irrespective of the price tag, it’s a well rounded Dagger to have provided your Dancer is a priority in your gaming experience.



Also, when discussing overall performance, one should focus more on Rounds, TP return from executed weaponskills, subjobs used and TP capes. Not to mention Conserve TP III that Dancers have!

For solo situations it’s better to sub WAR for instance and use DA cape, some even argue that STR 30 would be better than DEX..
But when discussing R15 priority, I strongly recommend Twashtar over Terpsichore since it can be used on other jobs and makes Rudra even stronger.
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By SimonSes 2019-08-28 04:30:53
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Ups I made a little mistake not noticing some custom WSD and DEX added to Rudra in spreadsheet. My bad, havent used this for a while.

First lets see how much more TP we actually get from PK on 2nd step over Rudra.

TP return:

Saber off:
PK is 5hits with avg +1.544 from multihit, so 6.544
We have 41 stp in PK set (with /sam)
2 main hits - 51 * 2 * 1.41 = ~144
4.544 additional hits - 10 * 4.544 * 1.41 = ~64
Total: 208

Rudra is 2hit with avg +0.12 from multihit, so 2.12
We have 25 stp in PK set (with /sam)
2 main hits - 50 * 2 * 1.25 = 125
0.12 additional hits - 0.12 * 10 * 1.25 = 1.5
Total: 126.5

Pk advantage over Rudra: 208 - 126.5 = 81.5

Evisceration with Aeneas/Twashtar - 50 * 2 * 1.3 + 4.728 * 10 * 1.3 = ~191

Saber on (20%DA):
PK - 210.9
Rudra - 131.6
PK advantage - 79.3

Evis - 197.2


WS damage:

Capped attack (favors Rudra)

Saber off:
PK with Terpsi/Twashtar - 30793

2nd Rudra avg TP with Aeneas/Twashtar - 191.4 + 3 * 304 = 1103
2nd Rudra damage with Aeneas/Twashtar at 1103 TP - 28006

3rd Rudra avg TP with Aeneas/Twashtar - 126.5 + 3 * 304 = 1038
3rd Rudra damage with Aeneas/Twashtar at 1038 TP - 27096

Rudra avg TP with Terpsi/Twashtar - 208 + 3 * 365 = 1303
Rudra damage with Terpsi/Twashtar at 1303 TP - 25642

Evis with Aeneas - 20457
Evis with Terpsi - 21676

Saber on:
PK with Terpsi/Twashtar - 31781

2nd Rudra avg TP with Aeneas/Twashtar - 197.2 + 3 * 332 = 1181
2nd Rudra damage with Aeneas/Twashtar at 1103 TP - 29378

3rd Rudra avg TP with Aeneas/Twashtar - 131.6 + 3 * 332 = 1127
3rd Rudra damage with Aeneas/Twashtar at 1115 TP - 28761

Rudra avg TP with Terpsi/Twashtar - 210.9 + 3 * 385 = 1366
Rudra damage with Terpsi/Twashtar at 1303 TP - 26495

Evis with Aeneas - 21761
Evis with Terpsi - 22422

Total damage:

Saber off:
Aeneas - 20457+28006(+darkness)+27096(+double darkness)
Terpsi - 21676+30793(+darkness)+25642(+double darkness)

Saber on:
Aeneas - 21761+29378(+darkness)+28761(+double darkness)
Terpsi - 22422+31781(+darkness)+26495(+double darkness)

Conclusion:
Terpsi would probably do same damage with Saber off and slightly less with Saber on. Now keep in mind that with uncapped attack, even with Saber on, PK advantage over Rudra will rise (For example when you lower def for PK to be at 17145, Rudra with Aeneas will go down to 14300-14500, while Rudra with Terpsi will have 13129, so Rudra with Aeneas will only has 1179 lead on step 3, while PK will have 2645 lead on step 2 and it will go further in favor of Terpsi with Saber off) and Aeneas will lose even with Saber on.

I will also add that when you can simply 4 step Umbra to kill your enemy, then Aeneas is for sure superior, because you will also use Climactic x2, which strongly favors Rudra and TPing is slightly irrelevant on last step because of Reverse flourish.

So now having this discussion behind us hopefuly, I strongly disagree with you downgrading Terpsi only because SCing is strong for solo DNC. It's strong and when its as easy as 4step Umbra to kill a mob, then Terpsi is not needed indeed, but your general statement about Terpsi not being worth the price tag is simply wrong imo. I would also do Twashtar first to R15 (which I did), because it would be used more in general, but it doesnt change the fact, that Terpsi is worth it to make and R15 too. Situations where Terpsi is superior can be situations where none other weapon can do it. If you need to constantly do waltzes, while TPing in hybrid and cant even make skillchains without AM3, then 22% faster TP generation and +1FM on steps can make impossible possible. Now other way around, where situation just favors 4 step to kill, at worst Terpsi will do it with one extra WS on top of that (or 3step + 2step), but it will still be easy and possible with both weapons.
It's kinda like saying that Apocalypse is not worth the price tag, because in most scenario you dont need it's utility and other weapons are stronger for DPS, but when you really need that utility, none other weapon can make it. Other example would be Annihilator.
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By Spaitin 2019-08-28 07:37:24
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In my opinion the top 5 rmea to r15 in no particular order are Lionheart Chango Caladbolg Epeoltry Masamune. They all boost the WS that you are going to be spamming. Epeo's base dmg boost and dimidiation boost were actually pretty gigantic and made that WS very nice. The base dmg made it pretty solid for reso as well. Unless we are talking about what weapons get the most improvement from r0-r15 then i would have to think about that.

As far as terp being good? i dont think it is worth it. On dnc i have it as tauret > twash > aeneas > terp. I view the hierarchy of weapons based on what I consider challenging fights. T3 or better, i dont find centovente very good because ofthat for offhand..terp just doesnt fit in a good strat at the moment. In high buff you really dont tp any faster for 2 reasons. you usually have your TP before the last WS is over and over tping on terp does nothing. Also on those numbers if you are doing a long SC you are going to open with exen and get a higher SC bonus which would put the 3 or 4 step on aeneas far ahead of terps total dmg. If you start with AM on terp you have to assume starting the same on aeneas. If no AM to begin then aeneas gets a starting advantage since terp has to hold to 3k for the amIII, in which case aeneas wins handily again.
So the TP return argument in a spam is a pretty flawed way to view it. If you dont consider it a spam and are going to use different WS then you are doing sc in which aeneas will win handily.
In low buff I had tauret evis crushing it and aeneas multi steps also crushing it, even twash rudra > rudra beats it by a lot. So it is kinda okay in lowbuff solo play. if you think spending time to have a weapon that is solid for that, then yeah worth it. In high buff i see no practical reason to have a terp. Mine is in storage. It is like a more expensive version of rag. Good, has its weird niche use but overall you dont use it much. We used to use it for onchy. but tauret replaced that. Now I cant really even think of a semi challenging fight where I would recommend terp over other options. If you can think of a specific fight of where it might be better let me know. Has to be a decently hard fight though. Not a bad weapon, just not BIS in any situation that matters.


Granted I havnt tried terp/shield. Kind of curious since twash/shield was really good.
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By SimonSes 2019-08-28 09:47:19
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Twashtar is by far better for group play and max buffs. My initial post was more about how much you get from R15 from R0 and there Terpsi is justified in rank S, while many better weapons are in rankSS.

If I would rank R15 weapon, then Terpsi wouldnt be that high for sure. Its mostly a weapon for long hard solo fights, which is very niche activity.

Now i don't know why would you not use Cento in offhand in max buff situation. This absolutely bring Twashtar main on another level and boost total damage by miles. Its not even close. Unless maybe you mentioned you run double cor a lot and have a have a room for rogue roll, then maybe Tauret seems to be closer to Twashtar, but especially in short fights, when Climactic have big impact to overall damage, Twashtar/Cento is crushing everything.
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By Asura.Sirris 2019-08-28 10:17:29
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huttburt<3 said: »
What's the best weapon for monk now?

Vere for pure damage, Spharai is really great though for the kind of stuff that you'd use monk for. If you love monk make both and R15 both.
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By Spaitin 2019-08-28 10:25:30
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SimonSes said: »
Twashtar is by far better for group play and max buffs. My initial post was more about how much you get from R15 from R0 and there Terpsi is justified in rank S, while many better weapons are in rankSS.

If I would rank R15 weapon, then Terpsi wouldnt be that high for sure. Its mostly a weapon for long hard solo fights, which is very niche activity.

Now i don't know why would you not use Cento in offhand in max buff situation. This absolutely bring Twashtar main on another level and boost total damage by miles. Its not even close. Unless maybe you mentioned you run double cor a lot and have a have a room for rogue roll, then maybe Tauret seems to be closer to Twashtar, but especially in short fights, when Climactic have big impact to overall damage, Twashtar/Cento is crushing everything.
so my question for you would be, what type of content are you using centovente on? I am talking stuff with neak level evasion and above. I.E. we did a couple of teles runs the other day and notice acc being an issue with cento offhand. You were basically forced to choose between capped acc and capped attack. same thing on wave three. I dont think we are disagreeing, i think we are just not considering the same content. I do like to run double cor with dnc . misers roll is very good and so is rogues with tauret. but it is also pretty good for twash and aeneas. If the fight is SUPER short then sure centovente is the king offhand. but dnc isnt war. you arnt killing stuff that is super tough in 30 seconds. For it to get top billing it needs to work on top end content. On fights like onchy/schah/teles we had tauret consistently winning by a decent little chunk over twash/cento If you are in a full alliance where you get absurd levels of debuffs to a mobs acc and buffs to your acc then twash/cento wins sure. But that is oddball stuff.
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By SimonSes 2019-08-28 10:51:18
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I used Cento on THF on teles and won the parse (twice) with many greatest player I know about. I had like 1600 accuracy offhand or something like that and THF has lower accuracy than DNC. Had capped accuracy on both hands.

Not really valid for accuracy issue, because I wasnt meleeing, but I used DNC with Twashtar/Cento on Erinys and doubled DPS of 2nd player on parse (THF with Aeneas/cento) with avg Rudra at ~95k

Also DNC is not a WAR indeed, DNC is actually better for 30 sec burst :D At least in theory :P You should be able to do 6 Rudra in 20 sec for almost capped damage on each and accuracy on cento is irrelevant, because all TP doesnt come from meleeing (you actually cant melee).

Climactic > Rudra 3sec
RF > GP > Rudra 4sec
RF > Rudra 3sec
Trance > Rudra 3sec
RF > Rudra 3sec

Assuming it's 85k avg per Rudra (tho it can be more) you do 6th Rudra at ~17 sec, so thats 30k DPS. I guess WAR can maybe compete with that with shining one on piercing weak mobs, but the beauty of doing it on DNC is almost no TP you give to mob too. The problem is that after that 17 sec you are out of JA and can only do some more using revit and maybe wings, but DPS will drop drastically for sure, while WAR can go for 1min+ with mighty strikes and war cry.
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By Spaitin 2019-08-28 11:14:07
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SimonSes said: »
I used Cento on THF on teles and won the parse (twice) with many greatest player I know about. I had like 1600 accuracy offhand or something like that and THF has lower accuracy than DNC. Had capped accuracy on both hands.

Not really valid for accuracy issue, because I wasnt meleeing, but I used DNC with Twashtar/Cento on Erinys and doubled DPS of 2nd player on parse (THF with Aeneas/cento) with avg Rudra at ~95k

Also DNC is not a WAR indeed, DNC is actually better for 30 sec burst :D At least in theory :P You should be able to do 6 Rudra in 20 sec for almost capped damage on each and accuracy on cento is irrelevant, because all TP doesnt come from meleeing (you actually cant melee).
so yeah, i would agree erynys is a good fight for it. but i can kill erynys in 30 seconds on war too. You actually dont need to even worry about mew if you do it at the right spot. on teles do the 6 climactic rudra then sure that would be great. on other fights i find the cento offhand struggles a bit. I actually find war to be the same as dnc in a 30-40 second burst sadly. Dnc wins in a fight that is closer to 20 seconds (on piercing weak only), but dnc isnt finishing teles or other mobs in sub 20 seconds. Also rudra with tauret/twash does close to 99k on teles anyway. You forget that war can near cap every WS too. i.e. in a 30 second zerg with a mighty strikes set you can spam 90k+ resolutions. and keep going for another 30 seconds if everything fails. You should try schah with cento (using the long method). it falls pretty far behind tauret/twash. But i will agree in a super fast zerg using the 6 climactic trick, then sure that strat works well. I wouldnt be opposed to going Twash>Tauret. but for the majority of content i consider worthwhile i have tauret>twash.

I.E. war albumen zerg we commonly end up averaging over 90k with mightystrikes reso spam. same with kirin/kouryou and vini and a few others.

On teles war doesnt even need mighty strikes. 80k averages are pretty routine. with mighty strikes 99k averages are pretty common. that 30k dps number is huge, but war has been able to do that on a lot of mobs for awhile.
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By Asura.Korgull 2019-08-28 11:28:57
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Spaitin said: »
I.E. war albumen zerg we commonly end up averaging over 90k with mightystrikes reso spam. same with kirin/kouryou and vini and a few others.
.
Question: What set are you using for MS Reso on Albumen? and what buffs? I noticed you posted this set on the war thread sometime ago
ItemSet 366561
I'd like to try something besides smn burn for once.
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By Spaitin 2019-08-28 11:33:41
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Asura.Korgull said: »
Spaitin said: »
I.E. war albumen zerg we commonly end up averaging over 90k with mightystrikes reso spam. same with kirin/kouryou and vini and a few others.
.
Question: What set are you using for MS Reso on Albumen? and what buffs? I noticed you posted this set on the war thread sometime ago
ItemSet 366561
I'd like to try something besides smn burn for once.
ItemSet 366564
This one for the first 30 seconds. basically makes you hit 90k+ every time on most mobs.
Then i switch to the set you quoted after 30 seconds.

Then it is basic buffs. sam/fighter bard buffs boost str entrust str etc. rune is very important on albumen. set up I prefer is war war run cor geo bard whm. either have cor or bard drop or go to a different party. takes like 35 seconds. Same exact set up for schah and vini works except one of the war might want to consider using chango on it for SC cohesion. If you have access to a drop cor to add to the party, mnks and allies or tacticians is a nice bonus. Try to position yourself so only one DD can face albumen at a time.

Basically you treat war MS like smn conduit.
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By Asura.Korgull 2019-08-28 11:42:02
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Thanks for the info, very specific and helpful.
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By Spaitin 2019-08-28 11:44:45
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Asura.Korgull said: »
Thanks for the info.
one more thing, this is my raetic algol TP set for war.

ItemSet 366562

You get a 3 hit build with something like 2.6 attacks per round (not to mention retal if/when you pull hate). I think it is 841 total MP inside of escha.

You can also doing a long multistep SC. works just as well. spamming is less prone to errors though.

I made this thread to specifically talk about strats for killing mobs with war as the main dps. still a bit troll filled atm, but i think it might help a lot of people.

https://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/53955/monster-killing-strats-for-warrior/3#3448339
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By Afania 2019-08-28 11:59:47
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SimonSes said: »
Ups I made a little mistake not noticing some custom WSD and DEX added to Rudra in spreadsheet. My bad, havent used this for a while.

First lets see how much more TP we actually get from PK on 2nd step over Rudra.

TP return:

Saber off:
PK is 5hits with avg +1.544 from multihit, so 6.544
We have 41 stp in PK set (with /sam)
2 main hits - 51 * 2 * 1.41 = ~144
4.544 additional hits - 10 * 4.544 * 1.41 = ~64
Total: 208

Rudra is 2hit with avg +0.12 from multihit, so 2.12
We have 25 stp in PK set (with /sam)
2 main hits - 50 * 2 * 1.25 = 125
0.12 additional hits - 0.12 * 10 * 1.25 = 1.5
Total: 126.5

Pk advantage over Rudra: 208 - 126.5 = 81.5

Evisceration with Aeneas/Twashtar - 50 * 2 * 1.3 + 4.728 * 10 * 1.3 = ~191

Saber on (20%DA):
PK - 210.9
Rudra - 131.6
PK advantage - 79.3

Evis - 197.2


WS damage:

Capped attack (favors Rudra)

Saber off:
PK with Terpsi/Twashtar - 30793

2nd Rudra avg TP with Aeneas/Twashtar - 191.4 + 3 * 304 = 1103
2nd Rudra damage with Aeneas/Twashtar at 1103 TP - 28006

3rd Rudra avg TP with Aeneas/Twashtar - 126.5 + 3 * 304 = 1038
3rd Rudra damage with Aeneas/Twashtar at 1038 TP - 27096

Rudra avg TP with Terpsi/Twashtar - 208 + 3 * 365 = 1303
Rudra damage with Terpsi/Twashtar at 1303 TP - 25642

Evis with Aeneas - 20457
Evis with Terpsi - 21676

Saber on:
PK with Terpsi/Twashtar - 31781

2nd Rudra avg TP with Aeneas/Twashtar - 197.2 + 3 * 332 = 1181
2nd Rudra damage with Aeneas/Twashtar at 1103 TP - 29378

3rd Rudra avg TP with Aeneas/Twashtar - 131.6 + 3 * 332 = 1127
3rd Rudra damage with Aeneas/Twashtar at 1115 TP - 28761

Rudra avg TP with Terpsi/Twashtar - 210.9 + 3 * 385 = 1366
Rudra damage with Terpsi/Twashtar at 1303 TP - 26495

Evis with Aeneas - 21761
Evis with Terpsi - 22422

Total damage:

Saber off:
Aeneas - 20457+28006(+darkness)+27096(+double darkness)
Terpsi - 21676+30793(+darkness)+25642(+double darkness)

Saber on:
Aeneas - 21761+29378(+darkness)+28761(+double darkness)
Terpsi - 22422+31781(+darkness)+26495(+double darkness)

Conclusion:
Terpsi would probably do same damage with Saber off and slightly less with Saber on. Now keep in mind that with uncapped attack, even with Saber on, PK advantage over Rudra will rise (For example when you lower def for PK to be at 17145, Rudra with Aeneas will go down to 14300-14500, while Rudra with Terpsi will have 13129, so Rudra with Aeneas will only has 1179 lead on step 3, while PK will have 2645 lead on step 2 and it will go further in favor of Terpsi with Saber off) and Aeneas will lose even with Saber on.

I will also add that when you can simply 4 step Umbra to kill your enemy, then Aeneas is for sure superior, because you will also use Climactic x2, which strongly favors Rudra and TPing is slightly irrelevant on last step because of Reverse flourish.

So now having this discussion behind us hopefuly, I strongly disagree with you downgrading Terpsi only because SCing is strong for solo DNC. It's strong and when its as easy as 4step Umbra to kill a mob, then Terpsi is not needed indeed, but your general statement about Terpsi not being worth the price tag is simply wrong imo. I would also do Twashtar first to R15 (which I did), because it would be used more in general, but it doesnt change the fact, that Terpsi is worth it to make and R15 too. Situations where Terpsi is superior can be situations where none other weapon can do it. If you need to constantly do waltzes, while TPing in hybrid and cant even make skillchains without AM3, then 22% faster TP generation and +1FM on steps can make impossible possible. Now other way around, where situation just favors 4 step to kill, at worst Terpsi will do it with one extra WS on top of that (or 3step + 2step), but it will still be easy and possible with both weapons.
It's kinda like saying that Apocalypse is not worth the price tag, because in most scenario you dont need it's utility and other weapons are stronger for DPS, but when you really need that utility, none other weapon can make it. Other example would be Annihilator.

Thanks for the numbers that confirms my thought. I think with all that data available other people can make decison on whether that 300m mythic fee is worth their money or not. I have no intention to force my opinion on other people regarding to how they spend their money.

I dont agree that terp can be compared with apoc and anni. Getting HP drained on apoc is too important for solo or situation that you cant sub sam. And hate free ws is too important in UNM/HTBC fights.
Theres just no way that you can drain HP with other drk weapon when you need it, or not pull hate on rng in UNM/HTBC/Fu when you go all out. That makes apoc/anni unique.

But in most situations that slightly favors terp, you can just use a different dagger and accomplish nearly the same result. Even on mobs that you cant SC on, you can spam evis with tauret and done.

does that make 300m price tag worth it? Its incredibly subjective. If you like the weapon, just go for it. In terms of daggers all options are incredibly close to each other most of the time, except grand pas zerg/group multi step really favors r15 twash maybe.
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-08-28 12:06:13
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As a DRK that has had Apoc for many years, I can't say that I ever feel the need to use it ever since trusts came out and become usable in most battlefields. Either you have trust healers to keep you topped off, or you have actual healers to keep you topped off.

If you have neither, then you're in big enough trouble that linking your healing to needing good haste and sometimes acc buffs (which is unlikely if the situation is bad enough that your healer is completely unavailable) is generally a failing proposition, and when relying on Apoc in an emergency situation a single whiff can spell the end, making it just unreliable enough to bite you in the *** at the worst time.

It's not completely useless, like Redemption is, but I don't think it's very valuable in today's game of ubiquitous trusts.
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By Spaitin 2019-08-28 12:13:02
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Asura.Geriond said: »
As a DRK that has had Apoc for many years, I can't say that I ever feel the need to use it ever since trusts came out and become usable in most battlefields. Either you have trust healers to keep you topped off, or you have actual healers to keep you topped off.

If you have neither, then you're in big enough trouble that linking your healing to needing good haste and sometimes acc buffs (which is unlikely if the situation is bad enough that your healer is completely unavailable) is generally a failing proposition, and when relying on Apoc in an emergency situation a single whiff can spell the end, making it just unreliable enough to bite you in the *** at the worst time.

It's not completely useless, like Redemption is, but I don't think it's very valuable in today's game of ubiquitous trusts.
I have always found it weird how much value people put on the WS health siphon. It really is kinda nothing. In 75 days sure, it was maybe even OP but now it is nothing. Why wouldnt you have a healer and what are you fighting solo without a trust healer? I mean there are a lot of drk bots using easy farm with it. i guess that is something. I will admit that it can make you come up clutch it that SUPER rare circumstance. You can be a tank for a bad DPS i guess, because a good dps would pretty easily rip hate off the drk with apoc. Todays meta has whm spamming cures at all times without issue.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-08-28 12:15:59
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With all the shitty whms and whm bots Apoc is more useful than ever to be honest. And trusts will literally watch you die while they run back and forth.

Obviously playing in a coordinated group with someone who actually doesn't mind being on whm will skew your view.
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-08-28 12:17:22
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As someone that solos on DRK a lot, trust healers don't have that problem anymore (at least the good ones).
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By Spaitin 2019-08-28 12:17:36
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
With all the shitty whms and whm bots Apoc is more useful than ever to be honest. And trusts will literally watch you die while they run back and forth.
Granted i dont play drk, but i never really ran into an issue with that on war with beserk and aggressor up tanking the mobs in generic TP sets as i force feed it TP with the high MA war has. is it really THAT squishy? I mean yoran or ygnas wont let you die unless you are just getting smashed. in which case apoc wont save you either. it is probably good for weird stuff like soloing neak.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-08-28 12:20:54
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They haven't touched the AI, nothing has changed.

it's not about squishy, or hp, or enmity it's about lazy/inept/incapable/uninterested whm. (bad tanks too!)
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By Asura.Geriond 2019-08-28 12:21:46
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Either something has changed, or the newer WHM trusts (Yoran/Ygnas) never had the problem in the first place, because I've solod threatening stuff for years and never had them fail to heal unless they were silenced, out of mp, or I get oneshotted.

Also, while slow-to-respond WHMs are always a risk, it's very rare to find one that is so inept that they can't heal someone with 50% DT and 4000-6000 HP. Maybe if you're using pickup WHMs on Dyna-D Wave 2/3 bosses or Master Trials, but stuff like Omen or HTBF it's never a problem unless the entire group is so dysfunctional a self-heal won't save it (like on a Fu engorged with 20 buffs).
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By Spaitin 2019-08-28 12:23:03
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
They haven't touched the AI, nothing has changed.

it's not about squishy, or hp, or enmity it's about lazy whm.
Yeah, never ran into an issue with it unless the mob one shots me. Maybe you are in a very squishy set or very low HP or something. I mean geez you can use yoran to solo T3 mobs. If you are doing something halfway hard the only thing the siphon does is make you die last as you beg the lazy whitemage to cure the rest of the party.

The only other thing I can think of is this; you might need to find new people to play with lol. What mobs are you fighting where this happens?
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By Bismarck.Firedemon 2019-08-28 13:32:44
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Man, I love my Apoc so damn much. Maybe it's an Apururu thing, but Apoc has saved my *** so many times while soloing. Even when things start to so sour in Dyna or Omen, after a DSNV/Drain III you can be pretty self-sufficient with staying alive while your WHMs can focus on raising people.
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By Asura.Meliorah 2019-08-28 13:33:34
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
With all the shitty whms and whm bots Apoc is more useful than ever to be honest. And trusts will literally watch you die while they run back and forth.

Obviously playing in a coordinated group with someone who actually doesn't mind being on whm will skew your view.

I think a bot whm comes down to a lot of factors. How its setup, the gear of the whm, and what bot you're using. Cure Please can carry you through all the content of this game just fine but if it gets hit with a debuff itself if you don't have something setup on your side to handle the response to use an item faster than the bot would take to process that it cannot use an action then you're going to encounter a wipe probably.

Setting up whm lua's to identify if they have silence, paralyze or something deadly on them and not acting accordingly (echo or remedy) then you will probably see an issue.

My only problem when running bots and custom scripts on my whm has only been I forgot to restock remedies and echo drops in my satchel.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-08-28 13:47:01
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Not everyone who turns on a lua they found knows how to use it properly. Nor does everyone who makes lua know how to do it optimally.

(and obviously, lack of meds/ability to self maintain is quite often an issue)
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-08-28 14:19:45
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Haven't used my Apoc recently, or much since I got it for that matter. But the recent gigas ambuscade where he would mud stomp the party it was useful when I needed it a couple of times. Was able to stay alive with the tank while chipping away at adds. Crappy pug WHMs wouldn't heal fast enough or died to AOEs. At least it allows you to maintain DPS while staying alive in precarious situations. Not a huge improvement but it's a situational tool for your oshit set.
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By Asura.Botosi 2019-08-28 14:25:31
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I love the utility of Apoc. It's super fun and useful in situations where the WHM will be strained. While its damage isn't on par with Calad, I will say that I can stay pretty high up in the parse with Apoc and know that I'll be safe.
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