Top 5 RMEAs To Rank 15 And Why

So you are using Tauret and outside of climactic window you do what SC? Rudra > Evisceration > Rudra? Evisceration > Pyrrhic > Rudra with Terpsi would be stronger then. Rudra is stronger with Terpsi, than with Tauret.

You have something broken in that sheet if you are getting faster round to WS with Aeneas than Terpsi with AM3. Also probably not optimized set for AM3 (sTP on cape? sTP body?)

Huh? You are missing my point. My argument has nothing to do with Tauret being optimal for rudra...in fact tauret is very BAD for rudra lol. Tauret was just there to demonstrate mythic AM 3 isnt required to link SCs since people keep making "mythic AM3 tp faster unbuffed" kind of argument. My point was rudra being more optimal in solo play because of darkness SC property, thus aeneas/twash are more optimal usually.

And you havent make any argument against point above yet. You just keep making new points thats completely irrelevant to what I said lol.

Highly doubt evis > pk > rudra with terp would beat aeneas or twash using evis > rudra > rudra. Or something that comes with longer chains but ends with rudra.

Slightly irrelevant to my main point, but ideal tauret SC seems to be shark bite > PK > building evis if CF isnt up. Its noticably stronger than rudra > evis > rudra. So Im not using rudra > evis > Rudra with tauret either.

If you suspect my sheet is broken, feel free to post your numbers. DNC sheet is pretty broken due to the lack of maintaince anyways.

But even IF AM3 TP much faster, I dont think my point is wrong. Rudra has darkness SC, you cant argue against that. Mythic AM3 isnt required to link SC in solo play, which is proven with countless solos that I have. Ive solo countless ambu/eschs NM/unm and I almost always link multistep without AM3 no issue. So Im not convinced that terp being a better solo play weapon is a statement thats universally true.

As long as you can TP fast enough to link SC and closing rudra hits as high as possible, then they will all benefit from weapons that has extra rudra dmg.

I can't really make a point against being able to make 3 step without AM3 being easy or not, because it's hard for me to actually test this, not to mention having time for that.

I can only speculate that being able to 3step without AM, doesnt mean that AM3 is irrelevant in that scenario, because:
a) you will do same 3 step faster with Terpsi and start another 3 step faster, so it doesnt matter if its 3step or one WS, WS frequency would still matter.
b) you could store more TP for final Rudra and make it hits harder and assuming that Terpsi is not a bad weapon for Rudra, because it has very high base damage and you can offhand Twashtar. AM3 proc on Rudra can also add several % increase in damage.
c) PK instead of 2nd Rudra in 3 step Evis > PK > Rudra will hit much stronger than Rudra from Aeneas or Twashtar (unless acc requirements are low enough to use Cento, but that would need trash mobs if we are talking about trusts only buffs)
d) you could do 3 step with Terpsi whiel TPing is safer gear and being catch with debuffs or high damage while doing 3 step is annoying. So if you need max TP sets and/or Saber Dance to build TP fast enough to make 3 step without mythic AM3, then it might be problem when you fight a mob that can catch you off guard.

And here is why I dont post much on ffxi forum anymore. Very frenquently I proceed to make a point, then someone else will reply with "no but....."(without data to back it up) then proceed to make their irrelevant point or read my point wrong.

So Id have to reply with another "no but....." by repeating my point, or provide data myself. Then someone else will repeat with even more "no but......" then the we just keep talking in circles for next 10 pages.

In this case, I made a point about sc dmg from rudra in solo play and next couple pages Im either replying people who try to make a point about meva set, or wrongly accuse me for having a "group play pov", or use spreadsheets for numbers because whoever made a "no but....." argument didnt bother do it themselves. Waste of time.


Anyways, about your points:
a) Already addressed this. I posted numbers so people can see exaxtly which weapon is faster for TP, and how much faster.


Also addressed your concern about my number being wrong.




Until someone else post different numbers this discussion about weapon TP speed should be over already.

b) proof? The number Im getting currently is terp offhand twash doing PK being 1k to 2k ahead of twash offhand taming doing rudra. But terp offhand twash being 4k below twash offhand taming for rudra.

In other words, terp doing evis > PK > rudra will be weaker than twash doing evis > rudra > rudra since 4k more dmg on last step will outweight the higher PK avg with terp.

If you want to question others number, then provide your own. Im tired of endlessly reply all the "no but....." on the forum from people who feel Im wrong without one single proof.

c) see b). numbers?

d) its like the 10th time that you are trying to make a point about meva set and also like the 10th time that Im trying to say Im not discussing the importance of meva set.

This was my point:

I only said sc dmg is relevant in solo and that favors rudra. I never say people should never use meva set/fan dance solo. I never say people should never multistep with terp. I never say people should bring dnc to group play only.

So I wonder whats the point to talk about all these if that wasnt my point.

My point about sc dmg being relevant and rudra being more important when SC matters is really just a yes/no discussion. You either agree, or if you dont then present math to disprove it.

my flamma +1 dark with su2 scythe can three step solo with trust buffs, no way dancer can’t with real gear

Ok if you really want it, I will take this serious.

a)
DNC/sam

Terpsi AM set:
ItemSet 368280
Normal set:
ItemSet 364167

Saber Dance off:
365TP per round,381 Delay,~57.5 TP per sec for AM3 Terpsi/Twashtar
304TP per round,387 Delay,~47.13 TP per sec for Twahstar/Taming
304TP per round,376 Delay,~48.5 TP per sec for Aeneas/Twashtar
22% faster TP with Terpsi vs Twashtar/Taming
18.5% faster TP with Terpsi vs Aeneas/Twashtar

Saber dance on (20%DA):
385TP per round,381 Delay,~60.63 TP per sec for AM3 Terpsi/Twashtar
329TP per round,387 Delay,~51 TP per sec for Twahstar/Taming
332TP per round,376 Delay,~52.98 TP per sec for Aeneas/Twashtar
~18.9% faster TP with Terpsi vs Twashtar/Taming
~14.4% faster TP with Terpsi vs Aeneas/Twashtar

This is significant advantage for Terpsi. Now keep in mind because of AM3 Terpsi will also have higher TP return from Evisceration than Twashtar/Taming and similar to Aeneas/Twashtar (because of stp on Aeneas). Now in 3 step Evis > PK > Rudra, PK will have very significantly higher TP return than Rudra in Evis > Rudra > Rudra.
Assuming 3 rounds after WS to make that last Rudra, you will have like 200TP (3*60TP per round and some more from PK return) more with Terpsi.

b)c)
Going further 200TP more on that final Rudra actually make that Terpsi/Twashtar Rudra stronger than Twashtar/Taming, even without AM3 proc. Aenas/Twashtar Rudra is still stronger, but only by like 2k.



Considering:
a) higher TP return, higher damage (because of AM3) from Evis and faster to reach 1000TP to Evis
b) way higher TP return, higher damage and faster to reach 1000TP to PK instead of Rudra as 2nd step in 3 step skillchain
c) higher damage than Twashtar main and slightly lower than Aeneas main on last Rudra (because of overtping with Terpsi)

3 step with Terpsi will be either same damage but done faster or will take same time and do overall more damage when you let overtp before last Rudra.

Now you have it. Feel free to now break my arguments, but first double check your numbers and do math yourself on top of that like I did losing 3 hours of my free time.

So, a tip for the mainhand/offhand

you can just keep adding twashtars to the set until one finally shows up in the list below the terpsi. Then delete all the twashes above the terpsi to force the proper main/offhand.

ItemSet 368284

(always drives me bananas when the main/offs are wrong)

I can literally hear Afania typing out their responds..

For what it's worth, since DNC already has super solid Acc in that set and no Centovente you could use Dedition Earring over Telos for even more STP during AM3.

Thx, I edited placement of daggers and added Dedition earring.

I wish my respond can reach him through sound so he doesnt spend 3hr typing the same thing I just did too >.>



You didnt add anything new to what we discuss in last 3 pages, lol. Except 2 things:

1) you used stp set and sub SAM, which pushed terp slightly ahead of aeneas(since you also use twash OH not taming) unlike before.

Gonna say /SAM isnt ideal for solo play though. Weaker attack without berserk = less ws avg = less SC dmg. But whatever.

2) I actually didnt notice aeneas has higher rudra avg than twash without cento. I guess that makes aeneas more ideal for solo play SCs.

Everything else we still argue in circles, lol. You even type things that proves my point.

Your point:


My point:


So appearantly you are just arguing semantic.

I never say terp doesnt have tp speed advantage. I only said the difference is small. I would use "small" to describe 14.4% difference. If Im going to use "big" to describe something it would be 50% or 100% difference.

I think its a waste of time to argue 3 pages because you dont agree with how I use adjectives.



Thanks for proving my main point.


"Done faster" by 14.4% after you spend a min for 3k TP PK before pop. May as well just use aeneas, engage, do 3 step and finish a mob faster. Saved 250m(?) on mythic too.

So you proved my point with math, can we just all agree that an aeneas can do dnc solo play just fine? Not much slower than terp, has much stronger closing darkness on final step. After 3 pages this hasnt change.

Afania, I don't mean to be petty but your argument is literally semantical (whether 14% is "small" or "big"), so you saying 'it's a waste of time to argue semantics' is funny.

A non-semantical version of what I assume you are trying to say is: 'Does x% faster avg TP gain outweigh y% higher avg WS dmg?'

Also you can use the 3ktp PK to 3step: 3k PK -> Evis -> Rudra dbl darkness. There's not a huge need to build 3ktp before engaging (no more than building 3ktp for Rudra with Twash beforehand)

Tell me something I dont know.

You know, they dont have to react to an opinion like "this is big, this is small". I dont even care if people insist 14.4% is a huge difference. But they choose to. Not my 3hr though.

If someone feel like making a r15 mythic because 14.4% faster with AM3 up is huge difference to them, they can do that. Their $13 a month.

Edit since you keep adding more words in your post:


I was the first person who posted math when people were arguing semantics.


Then you are missing the key point of this discussion, I dont think you read posts 3 page back. The entire argument from Baniak was terp with AM3 >= aeneas for 3 step, thus terp is (in his opinion I think) more ideal for solo DD play. Without AM3 this likely wont be true since terp is already sidegrade/slightly below aeneas with AM3, it will be further behind without.

Whats the point to build a R15 mythic but not using AM3 to do the same thing a free aeneas does....but do it worse.

Twash AM3 isnt relevant in this discussion.

3k TP PK -> Evis -> Rudra with terp seems horrible. Wasted 2 ws worth of ws for PK and evis is bad without tauret too. PK avg highest in this entire chain and yet its 1st ws, not 2nd nor 3rd, no good.

Still dont see how making a r15 terp for multistep being a strong argument. 2k higher rudra from aeneas is huge on a 3 or 4th step since it turn into 6k more darkness dmg. Aeneas for solo multistep, twash for group multistep IMO. Thats based on Baniaks math too.

In a universe where people will pay 100m for 1dps, 14% can only be quantified as "gi-mother-***-gantic"

14% is "Yuge"

Sometimes... the obvious still needs to be stated.

Your TP per second values are way off. Considering you have no DW in your example sets, I assume you're capping delay. Going by your TP/Round values, you would get:

365 / ((381 * 0.2) / 60) = 287.4
304 / ((387 * 0.2) / 60) = 235.7
304 / ((376 * 0.2) / 60) = 242.6

380 / ((381 * 0.2) / 60) = 299.2
325 / ((387 * 0.2) / 60) = 251.9
328 / ((376 * 0.2) / 60) = 261.7

The TP/s difference doesn't change much at all, though. But looking at it on a per second basis doesn't really amount to anything, per round is a more useful stat.

Yup, Prefer to pay 0 gil for 2k more rudra (+4-6k double darkness) dmg :D. Aeneas is free. :D

Last page but this is not true. Literally just tested.

I'm not a DNC so I don't fully know what the job is capable of without buffs, but since Terps allows for faster TP speed, wouldn't it make some sense to take possible solo 4-steps into consideration to really push it?

Shark Bite is no Rudra's, but perhaps the SC damage from SB > Pyrrhic > Evisceration > Rudra's could make up the difference?

This debate has taken up more time than the kill speed difference between the two weapon options.

There's very little content in this game that has hard DPS checks. Some of Dyna wave 3, some Ambu strats, and Aeonic NM zergs only real stuff that requires super precise DPS checks to exist, and even that is iffy since it's been a year or two with upgrades in that time frame to make the window much bigger to get through. Biggest issue is proper buffing and survival, these discussions can be fun, but it's not that big of a deal. Even just pressing your buttons at the proper time is likely going to result in a bigger damage difference than one dagger choice than the other.

Also didn't the original topic come because of solo play? Play with the daggers you like. Personally I just like Twashtar AM3, and am too lazy to switch to Aeneas for multi-steps, even on content where it's arguably better. It generally isn't a noticeable difference for me.

It's like: huh?

I went back and re-read the original poster's question.

"what are the most useful R15"

to which I have to raise the question...does any AG'ed RMEA that isn't already useful suddenly become useful once R15'ed? In my sphere of understanding, the only one I can come up with would be Gandiva. Of course there are others, merely speaking based on my experience. I'm sure there are others, and I'd love to hear that discussion.

Which weapons weren't useful at AG level but become useful once R15'ed?

*ninja edit*
Let's say about half the relics. and any of the mythics/emps with multi-hit ws. But obviously they weren't "useless" pre R15

Even that's a little bit over generalized. The hierarchy absolutely changed with specific weaponskill damage increases. (applying to all hits*)

What's the best weapon for monk now?

At first I was gonna say the same thing, but again falling back on personal experience, Annihilator was still being used pre-R15 in old zones with old hate rules (think Tumult Curator or Master Trials that afforded a ranged strat) and was without doubt the safest option for a RNG strat on something like Fu, and I often saw DRKs using Apocalypse in specific situations...so clumping the entire family isn't quite appropriate.

I'd definitely agree that as a whole they gained more than Empys/Mythics/Aeonics, often in part to SE actually giving a damn and giving them unique augments rather than just one style for the entire family.

I don't agree with your assumption that you need to build up mythic AM3 pre-engage for terp to compete with other options; you could just as well build 3ktp prepull with aeneas/twashtar; building tp prepull is not something that only mythic weapons benefit from. I even moreso disagree when you have a decent 3-step double darkness available to open with when you put up AM3 (see below).


Heuristically speaking, PK and Evis are incredible weapon skills due to fTP transfer and therefore benefit more from the mythic AM: using the Last Dance guide's PK and Evis sets (with no JAs) gives an effective fTP of 14.61 for PK (with r15 terp) and 9.12 for Evis (assuming capped pDIF, and 0 dDEX). Without the mythic aftermath these become 13.6 and 8.53, meaning the mythic aftermath alone is ~7.4% increase for PK and ~6.9% for Evis, purely from extra hits.


I don't play DNC, but giving out advice like "terp is only worth it if you build 3k tp before pull and even then it's not even better damage than other options" really undersells the niche of mythic weapons: namely that you can lean on the mythic OA2 and OA3 and sacrifice multihit gear in favor of survival stats. You don't value that playstyle...other people do though.
Edit: I'll also add that when you aren't using saber dance, terp becomes an even more attractive option.

_______
(Technically I am calculating the expectation value here)
PK effective fTP:

PK is 4 hits baseline, fTP=1.75+.2(fotia)

effective fTP = fTP*(number of hits)*(damage multipliers)
number of hits = base hits + 1*OA2(1-OA3)(1-DA)(1-TA)(1-QA)+2*OA3(1-DA)(1-TA)(1-QA)+1*DA(1-TA)(1-QA) + 2*TA(1-QA) + 3*QA
damage multiplier = 1.49 from r15 terp

Evis effective fTP:

Evis is 5 hits baseline, fTP=1.25+.2

I estimated the damage multiplier at capped pDIF as 1+critchance*(1+critdmg)*(4.45-3.45)/3.45 and assumed dDEX=0 (i.e. no crit chance from DEX) and that you WS right at 1k (no increased crit chance)

And this is a good example of this:


Its utterly obvious that when you randomly join the converwation between me and baniak you didnt even know what we were arguing about since you didnt read last 3 pages. Then when you go back to read previous pages you still dont get what we were arguing about because you dont play the job.

So your 1st point about evis and pk ftp was irrelevant in the multistep SC discussion and 2nd point about defensive stats was the same point Baniak made 2 pages ago. And I already addressed that if you read my previous posts too. And yet I have to reply your post by repeating the same thing I said to baniak because you werent reading my points.

At least Baniak actually know what he was talking about since he plays the job, he just plays the job differently from I do.

He is just very biased toward terp and being super stubborn about it. Which I dont care if people prefer to spend 250m+ worth of gil because people want to marry terpsichore or something, lol.



This. People argue endlessly about 14% TP speed difference when AM3 is active that doesnt even reduce one whole TP round in real solo SC gameplay. Fat chance is that whatever you can kill with a R15 terp 3 step you can kill with aeneas 3 steps just as fast too. The only difference is whether you are willing to make a r15 mythic to do the same thing or not.

Post is "top 5 remas to r15 and why". I provide actual numbers as a point of discussion relevant to Terp vs other remas, but somehow you are stuck on a conversation you had with someone else 2 pages back.

Whether or not I play the job is irrelevant to what I posted. That you suggest otherwise indicates you didn't read or understand what I posted, which is fine--I'm not posting for your benefit, but merely to add to the conversation.

Anddddddd 4th person who randomly join the conversation and also missed my point lol. If I make 1 gil everytime someone post a reply of my point because they read my post incorrectly Id have enough gil to make 5 terps already.

But its ok, I like you, so Ill explain things....AGAIN!

1) 4 steps with trust buffs is VERY doable without mythic AM3. I Said that 2 pages ago. You can use ANY weapon and still form 4 steps solo.

2) The thing multi step is that your 3 and 4th step ws avg will mirror itself and multiplies. So rudra that closes final 4 step will matter a ton more than any WS in 1st and 2nd. Ideally you want whatever ws thats the strongest for that weapon be 3rd or 4th step.

So putting PK in 2nd step is lose compare with using stronger rudras in 3rd or 4th.

PK with terp is about 1k ahead of aeneas rudra last time I checked but aeneas is 2k ahead of terp according to baniaks math.

So terp doing SB > PK > Evis > rudra probably wont result stronger SC than aeneas doing something like evis > SB > rudra > rudra. More so if CF is up. I just dont see it. I was playing with spreadsheet and ws avg I got with terp doing evis and rudra was several thousands below aeneas doing rudra. So you are putting a ws thats several thousands weaker on 3rd and 4th step.

Even baniak confirm himself that terp with 200 tp overflow is still 2k below aeneas. When you do a 4 step, that 2k ws dmg difference quicky turn into 8k difference or more. Thats a lot.

So why do people keep randomly joining the conversation by making points about evis and pk (1st and 2nd step ws) ftp, or defensive set is something I dont get. My point this entire time was 4 step darkness really benefit from rudra dmg. That was my only point. Everything else wasnt my point.

That discussion was over even before my conversation with baniak too. Even Katriina agree that terp isnt top priority. So why are you going all the way back on points that we have consensus on?

Your "actual number" wasnt relevant in the discussion because we are all very aware of PK avg on paper and none of us are saying terp PK is weak. We werent arguing about PK ws avg, and both me and baniak agree that r15 terp PK is the strongest dnc ws without tp bonus nor sc dmg. So you are just posting something we already know and agree with......3 pages ago.


I didnt say that. Stop putting words in my mouth or read my point wrong. Please.

no u