Merc Culture Discussion

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Merc Culture Discussion
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By soralin 2019-04-02 16:59:23
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So, to preface, Im interested in a serious discussion regarding the general culture around Mercing and its prevalence now on some servers, especially Asura of course.

To begin, I don't dislike it, I don't think its inherently 'bad' or 'wrong' for the culture to exist.

I'm just interested in discussing the 'why' from a purely objective standpoint. Mostly I just think its a neat phenomena that has occurred and it's just a cool thing that has happened. Culture shifting that is, and I'd like to hear peoples thoughts on it.

To begin, the main facts as I see it.

1. Mercing never used to be this prevalent during the 75 era. You got occasional shouts, but for the most part the only items that ever really got merc'd were Dynamis drops (I recall Rdm hat and Thf gloves being popular merc items from large shells) and stuff like D Ring of course.

2. At some point, through a contextual shift, merc'ing has surged over the years to become the majority of shouts, especially on Asura. Some kind of factors probably combined together to breed this cultural phenomena, and I'm curious about peoples thoughts on it.

So, to begin, here are what I consider the primary influences that created the right mix to breed such a culture.

First off, Teleporting is a million times easier. Warp ring, HP/Book/Etc warps make it incredibly easy to get from Point A to Point B. Before in the 75 era, this was substantially more difficult, and it was unlikely you could run to a specific zone in time to lot a drop before the timer was up.

Second, community upkeep of Wiki info, particularly the strats on Discussion pages, have become almost entirely empty. This is pretty critical, as newer players heavily rely on this info to quickly and easily figure out party comps to put together to take down fights. Remember, not everyone has R15 REMA jobs!

Before I recall days where end game NMs would have entire pages of groups all posting their various party/alliance comps to take down NMs. This just isn't really a thing now for most fights.

Furthermore, many wiki pages for new NMs meta-refer to mechanics in a way that seasoned players may instantly understand, but new players will have to go look up elsewhere. IE "Uses the usual NM Moves of <species>" might be a common thing to see, without any further clarification on what that actually entails. Its expected of the reader to then go to the species page and look up each move on the list.

Whereas for seasoned vets, they will remember which of those moves is the crippling one that needs to be managed. So both these points combined adds a barrier of entry to newer/returning players that didn't exist in the past.

I think this is interesting too, because I'd say now more than ever the gearing barrier of entry is smaller than ever before. Gear has become so incredibly easy to obtain and the gap between "Best in slot" and "Second best in slot" has never been smaller either, especially with the introduction of Ambu weapons.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this topic! I think it's really neat how much culture can exist in something as abstract as an MMO, and its a topic I love to hear people's take on!
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By Asura.Sirris 2019-04-02 17:30:10
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You make some good points, particularly about the ease of travel. Also, between the game throwing gil at you, and RMT still being huge, players don't mind merc'ing today, even when it's overpriced.

I will say, personally I don't care for mercing, at least not lower-tier stuff. That stuff is in there to provide a sense of progression and teach the player how to handle mechanics. And ultimately is the point of playing FFXI just *new shiny that you didn't earn* or is it playing? I try to do my part- running with a mid-tier ls that progressed through content together, I've farmed a ton of gear for people returning or starting out. No reason they should feel like there aren't players who are willing to help them out still. Everything isn't a transaction, you know?

On the other hand, I freely admit to being a hypocrite- I do sometimes buy stuff from mercs, either to save time farming or for convenience.
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2019-04-02 17:45:25
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Mercing allows players to get gear they would not otherwise be able to because they don't have enough to offer groups that would allow them to get the gear they're after in a more conventional way.

Take Aeonics, for example. I know it's theoretically possible for any combination of jobs to make it through to the end, but as a practical matter the strategy for T4s is beefy supports and enough Nirvanas to Conduit them into orbit. It's not even a bad thing, really: XI's built around developing several jobs to respond to different situations, so if you can get 3 or 4 Nirvanas for your T4 clear just by shouting on Asura, why wouldn't you?

Of course, not everyone is tall enough for the ride, which is why the market for mercs is so robust: the mercs get paid for their heavy investment in clearing specific endgame events (and actually keep having something to do with their friends, which is an underrated factor here), the buyer gets their loot without having to make that investment, and everybody leaves happy.

The only way you'd be able to curb this dynamic (assuming you'd even want to, which, why? Again, everyone's happy) is to make blind grouping compulsory via a Duty Finder mechanism, but that wouldn't work because again, not every job being equally suited to every task is baked into XI's core at this point.
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-04-02 17:46:50
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It's never been easier to make gil... so of course mercing is going to explode in popularity.

It's also never been worse to get things to actually drop! so again... of course mercs are going to explode in popularity.

There is nothing wrong with paying someone to waste their time for you. The entire world is built on that premise.

Just stop overpaying. That's my huge *** gripe. CUT IT THE *** OUT. And if someone shouts and doesn't put a price, they are fishing for idiots to overpay. They don't put the price in the shout because you morons pay more than the going rates.

...and stop giving mercs YOUR pops AND paying them for the drop. They're double dipping and you're HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE.
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 Asura.Byrne
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By Asura.Byrne 2019-04-02 17:54:19
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Right, there's really nothing wrong with mercing, if you don't want to pay for one, just ask your LS for advice on an NM and make a group either with your friends, or shout for a group. Just because people don't do it doesn't mean you can't do it.

As for why people rely so heavily on it, I'd say laziness is a pretty big factor. As was pointed out above this post, if you have the money to get something, but not the gear to do the content, it is often a wiser investment to just pay someone who can do it to get that crap done, instead of wasting 40+ hours on something you could have paid someone a few mil to do.
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 Phoenix.Dabackpack
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By Phoenix.Dabackpack 2019-04-02 18:16:09
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A major difference between now and the 75 era is that so many NMs are force-popped now. No waiting on ToD or Dynamis timers... if somebody wants to pay for a Teles clear, all you need is a few items and there you go.
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By soralin 2019-04-02 18:17:08
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I think the problem is many players have been convinced they need BiS gear to do anything.

Ive seen enough V1E ambu shouts demanding idris geos and REMAs to know the playerbase seems to have a hyper inflated concept of difficulty.

I think this is where a lack of info plays in. Many of the hard fights in the game become stupid easy with the right team, and no you generally dont need REMAs even.

But without access to those plans, a schism between the 'just throw nirvana smns at it' playerbase and the 'what does CFH mean' playerbase forms.

And mercing bridges that gap.
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By soralin 2019-04-02 18:18:28
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Phoenix.Dabackpack said: »
A major difference between now and the 75 era is that so many NMs are force-popped now. No waiting on ToD or Dynamis timers... if somebody wants to pay for a Teles clear, all you need is a few items and there you go.

Thats a really good point! Its hard to merc a drop when you werent even online when the HNM popped and was killed!
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-04-02 18:21:48
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Mercing is just a service that exchanges someone else's skill and time for your money/lack of time/inexperience etc. It's no different than paying a dealership to change your oil vs figuring out that messy headache for yourself. It's a service and players got smart to a degree when they decided that they'd just pay/sell for the help/time. Don't forget time is a measurable to a lot of people (time=money). And a huge part of this game is spent on chunks of time gates (forming groups, win/loss, tier progression, etc). Any chance that the player can cut down on that time increases the amount of time they are actually playing the game, vs mindlessly grinding through content that will be replaced with others options soon.

It has general pros and cons, but mercing is just an attractive option for both the buyer and seller. To date, it is the fastest way make money and it's the fastest way to get a shiny.

In practice I agree with mercing if the end goal is to save time, money, headache etc. I don't really agree with buying items from content you don't qualify for, or even gear that would improve your character to play in content you didn't even progress to to get the gear on your own That's backwards thinking to buy items from content you aren't ready to tackle imo, but to each their own.
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By fonewear 2019-04-02 18:24:38
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The best part is when mercs argue with other mercs on how much of a price gouge they can get away with on easy content...
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By Rixit 2019-04-02 18:46:33
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Content is extraordinarily easier, making mercing more viable than it was prior.

Would love to see all jobs nerfed.
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By ScaevolaBahamut 2019-04-02 19:03:46
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soralin said: »
I think the problem is many players have been convinced they need BiS gear to do anything.

Ive seen enough V1E ambu shouts demanding idris geos and REMAs to know the playerbase seems to have a hyper inflated concept of difficulty.

This is kind of what I was saying: without some compulsory grouping mechanism like Duty Finder, BiS or wipe becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's easy to say "start your own group", but your group needs a tank and a healer, and surprise surprise all the tanks and healers want BiS DDs.
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By Lakshmi.Avereith 2019-04-02 19:05:40
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Asura sure seems like an interesting place...
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-04-02 19:05:42
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ScaevolaBahamut said: »
soralin said: »
I think the problem is many players have been convinced they need BiS gear to do anything.

Ive seen enough V1E ambu shouts demanding idris geos and REMAs to know the playerbase seems to have a hyper inflated concept of difficulty.

This is kind of what I was saying: without some compulsory grouping mechanism like Duty Finder, BiS or wipe becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's easy to say "start your own group", but your group needs a tank and a healer, and surprise surprise all the tanks and healers want BiS DDs.

This is the root of the problem. Tank. Healer.

Princess mentality. Too few. Too important. Not enough to go round.
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By fonewear 2019-04-02 19:06:30
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Lakshmi.Avereith said: »
Asura sure seems like an interesting place...

It's like a kindergarten class and when people don't get their juice boxes...they cry and yell !
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By Nubyaan 2019-04-02 19:34:55
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Interesting topic.

But wouldn’t this mean that RMT services are also “mercing” so by extension and for the sake of consistency - the community should also be 100% okay with this no? There’s no difference between paying ingame gil for an Aeonic clear and paying dollars for it if at the end of the day, you are paying someone to spend time on something you can’t do or don’t have the time for.

Yet people seem to navel gaze down on RMTers or how RMT is killing the game. Is it even possible to truly be okay with mercing but then not be okay with real money mercing?

Just curious.
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By Phoenix.Uzugami 2019-04-02 20:20:12
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soralin said: »
I think this is where a lack of info plays in.

But without access to those plans, a schism between the 'just throw nirvana smns at it'

When I came back a couple months ago (And, sometimes even now, without trial and error) nearly almost every NM discussion on BG was either: It's 3easy5me on a well-geared BLU with or without trusts, or toss Nirvana smns/use SCH on it lol.
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By Asura.Byrne 2019-04-02 20:28:30
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ScaevolaBahamut said: »
soralin said: »
I think the problem is many players have been convinced they need BiS gear to do anything.

Ive seen enough V1E ambu shouts demanding idris geos and REMAs to know the playerbase seems to have a hyper inflated concept of difficulty.

This is kind of what I was saying: without some compulsory grouping mechanism like Duty Finder, BiS or wipe becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's easy to say "start your own group", but your group needs a tank and a healer, and surprise surprise all the tanks and healers want BiS DDs.

Which in turn is probably because many players that have really good tanks also have really good DDs, and are tired of being forced to go tank because they are the only person that put the effort in to be able to do either. I've been there myself when I was getting the middle section of my Aeonics... I had to go on RUN because I had epeo and I knew how to play the job, and other people could only offer mediocre DD's that I could have outdamaged on BLU even if I didn't use my REMA weapons, which was to say nothing about how strong Lionheart RUN was in comparison to everything else back then, but I never really got to do that very often.

So I guess another way of looking at it is, people are tired of carrying people for free, they'd rather at least get paid to do it.
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By Asura.Byrne 2019-04-02 20:35:00
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Nubyaan said: »
Interesting topic.

But wouldn’t this mean that RMT services are also “mercing” so by extension and for the sake of consistency - the community should also be 100% okay with this no? There’s no difference between paying ingame gil for an Aeonic clear and paying dollars for it if at the end of the day, you are paying someone to spend time on something you can’t do or don’t have the time for.

Yet people seem to navel gaze down on RMTers or how RMT is killing the game. Is it even possible to truly be okay with mercing but then not be okay with real money mercing?

Just curious.

I think people might draw a distinction between real money mercing, and buying gil... as one of them disrupts the market and causes inflation... as for the other, you do you, it's none of my business.
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-04-02 21:04:20
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To be perfectly honest, there is no difference. Get it how you get it and you got it, that's all there is to it. he who hath the largest wallet winnith.

be that wallet fictional monies or "real" monies.
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 Sylph.Brahmsz
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By Sylph.Brahmsz 2019-04-02 21:27:57
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*Disclaimer: I'm not a fan of merc'ing, but it exists and so do players that are willing to pay for it so what are you going to do.*

That said, OP makes some really significant points about the easing of the game through QoL adjustments. Secondly, there are typically a couple of types of people who will pay for mercenary services/groups I've observed:

-Those that are genuinely better at making gil than actually playing through battle-content. (but if you're not a good battle-content player, will it help all that much?)

-Those who rationalize spending their gil/dollars-to-gil-to-mercenary-services to close the gap on gear. (which breaks down into the subject of time/efficiency/laziness)

On a side note: Something I haven't noticed anyone speak on as a side effect of sorts is the proliferation of gil-based upgrades such as Dynamis shard drops and the Crafted-only items for Artifact and Relic armor. Thoughts?
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By Asura.Byrne 2019-04-02 21:28:17
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Asura.Eiryl said: »
To be perfectly honest, there is no difference. Get it how you get it and you got it, that's all there is to it. he who hath the largest wallet winnith.

be that wallet fictional monies or "real" monies.

Well that last sentence is true... but what I mean is that when people buy gil, it tends to flood the server with gil, and over time the prices of everything inflates as a consequence. Basic economics really... while receiving real money for mercing doesn't really have any affect in game aside from the person who received their new shiny.
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2019-04-02 21:30:50
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People openly shame RMT practices and claim "it hurts the game", like they care one bit. These same people run eleventeen different accounts at once while earning inordinate amounts of gil (some sell it back to people), and then claim you just can't keep up cuz you suck, or something. It's all the same, in the end to be truthful.

If you're running multiple characters and able to manipulate your net gain, you're essentially buying gil, in a very roundabout way. It's the same logic behind people who are getting extra "lucky" on AMAN trove because their fifth character won an ashera. There is no difference between buying 100m and paying (merc) that omen body vs running 5 characters and soloing your omen omens/amans for that omen body. You just cut out the middle man directly, but paid more in sub fees.

Mercing/multiboxing is just a more intelligent approach to an already time-intensive MMO, if you're willing to pay for it. I can see both sides of it, and I'm against neither at this point, because i understand the end game. Saving time/earning more money.
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By Odin.Senaki 2019-04-02 21:32:42
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I don't Merc myself really, and I have never been a huge fan of Mercing because it tends to promote elitism. But then again, for some content that not all folks have time for (Aby for an example), idc if people Merc it.

What bothers me is when people /yell for overinflated prices on stuff almost anyone can do. I saw this the other day: "Escha/Zi'tah T1s <Do you need it?> 500k/kill".

Now this guy is blatantly screwing returning players, as even Ambuscade gear is better then that stuff.

So my biggest issue with Mercing is that players intentionally try to rip off people that don't know better.


That being said, Mercing is a thing in every mmorpg: FFXIV, WoW, RuneScape, MapleStory, etc.

But! I have noticed that if a game has a smaller population, it seems to be incredibly taboo for people to Merc instead of helping one another. Smaller Ffxi servers show this best whereas sometimes Mercers will be socially exiled if they sell overly priced goods.

So yup, just my thoughts.
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2019-04-02 21:38:03
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
People openly shame RMT practices and claim "it hurts the game", like they care one bit. These same people run eleventeen different accounts at once while earning inordinate amounts of gil (some sell it back to people), and then claim you just can't keep up cuz you suck, or something. It's all the same, in the end to be truthful.

If you're running multiple characters and able to manipulate your net gain, you're essentially buying gil, in a very roundabout way. It's the same logic behind people who are getting extra "lucky" on AMAN trove because their fifth character won an ashera. There is no difference between buying 100m and paying (merc) that omen body vs running 5 characters and soloing your omen omens/amans for that omen body. You just cut out the middle man directly, but paid more in sub fees.

Mercing/multiboxing is just a more intelligent approach to an already time-intensive MMO, if you're willing to pay for it. I can see both sides of it, and I'm against neither at this point, because i understand the end game. Saving time/earning more money.

There is a fantastic quote on BG about this. I'm gonna go find it. Reserved. So damn difficult to find....I can't find it and I'm tired of looking QQ

Q: "what's the difference between paying $300 for someone to merc and paying $300 for 3 years of subscription?"

A: "If you pay the merc you'll actually get the drop"

(paraphrased)
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By Autocast 2019-04-02 22:40:51
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Content is easier to do with fewer characters.

Multi box tools makes it easier to control said characters with fewer people.

Game throws gil at you at all levels, average players income is way beyond anything you could imagine at the 75 cap. Makes people more willing to use said gil to bypass content instead of building up to it themselves.

I don't mind merc culture, same as buying your rema currency has always been, paying someone else to put the time in when you don't want to/doesn't make sense for you to do. gives everyone involved something to do.

As for the RMT aspect I tend to not be bothered by it, it is what it is and always has/will be.
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By trinironnie 2019-04-02 22:49:25
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BLM burn KSNM burn? That was my main source of gil back in the day.
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By Asura.Byrne 2019-04-02 22:49:48
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Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
People openly shame RMT practices and claim "it hurts the game", like they care one bit. These same people run eleventeen different accounts at once while earning inordinate amounts of gil (some sell it back to people), and then claim you just can't keep up cuz you suck, or something. It's all the same, in the end to be truthful.

If you're running multiple characters and able to manipulate your net gain, you're essentially buying gil, in a very roundabout way. It's the same logic behind people who are getting extra "lucky" on AMAN trove because their fifth character won an ashera. There is no difference between buying 100m and paying (merc) that omen body vs running 5 characters and soloing your omen omens/amans for that omen body. You just cut out the middle man directly, but paid more in sub fees.

Mercing/multiboxing is just a more intelligent approach to an already time-intensive MMO, if you're willing to pay for it. I can see both sides of it, and I'm against neither at this point, because i understand the end game. Saving time/earning more money.

That still does not address the issue with inflation. SE back in the day removed millions, sometimes hundreds of millions (back when that was actually alot of gil) from the server to combat inflation. Said inflation was largely a result of RMT activity.

Say what you want about the ethics of receiving merc and multiboxing being the same, I still disagree because one requires actual knowledge of the game while the other does not, but even when granted that, it does nothing about the fact that gil now is worth maybe 10% of what it once was. Back in 2007, 10M was a hell of a lot of gil, now it's chump change.

I still don't really care, because the game is healthy enough despite all of that since most players don't mind buying gil it seems, but it's still not right to act like the point has been refuted when it hasn't.
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