Apoc Vs Rag

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Apoc Vs Rag
 Cerberus.Avalon
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By Cerberus.Avalon 2014-05-14 13:57:13
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Cerberus.Conagh said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
I made this exact same thread when I wanted to build a relic for DRK.

In the end I chose Ragnarok, and I'm glad I did! You don't see many good DRKs nowadays in terms of raw DPS, and Ragnarok is a GS that will give you that. Apocalypse is more for those moments that you really need to survive, or you enjoy soloing higher levelled mobs, and the reason why I ended up choosing Ragnarok (despite spending years loving Scythe) was because I am a damage dealer, I ain't here to solo mobs, I am here to kill ASAP and let the mages keep me alive.

Build Ragnarok, I have thought about making Apocalypse for a while, but the thing is, if I want to solo, I have THF or BST to fall back on. I just can't think of anything useful you can do that would have you using Apocalypse over Ragnarok. Entropy isn't strong enough. It's great being able to get HP and MP back using a weapon, but if you're in a position where you seriously need that utility, then you might be on the wrong job for the content, or have a bad healer.

Apoc is fun, Ragnarok is business. Build a Rag, get it to 119, then show the average MNKs how to kill.

I play with Kylos and I agree I have yet to see a good DRK (Sorry Kylos :P)

Dang, Conagh, that's messed up lol. I have to "thumbs up" Kylos for selling me cheap Bynes all the time.
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2014-05-14 13:57:36
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Oi! Conagh you can't say anything about DRK, you don't even play it :p

I know I suck. I suck so hard. I suck so much that I take all the hate and die :( Unless we got some 119 MNKs, then yeah, im freakin awesome.
 Cerberus.Conagh
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2014-05-14 13:58:51
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I grabbed some popcorn and this sprang to mind . . .

 Cerberus.Conagh
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2014-05-14 13:59:18
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Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Oi! Conagh you can't say anything about DRK, you don't even play it :p

I know I suck. I suck so hard. I suck so much that I take all the hate and die :( Unless we got some 119 MNKs, then yeah, im freakin awesome.

Didn't I beat you on BLU?

>_>
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2014-05-14 14:02:07
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Honestly stuck on ways to improve my DRK. In delve I either end up 1) Parsing ahead of the other DD by a long margin and getting killed or 2) Parse last because the zones are more suited to the awesome 119 MNKs. I prefer 2), if i'm the worst dd, then everything will be fine :D

I only know one DRK who beats me, and i'm not sure how, he probably uses spellcast or something. Either that or my support sucked and his didn't.

Edit: You have never parsed alongside me on BLU for anything.
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 Cerberus.Conagh
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2014-05-14 14:03:14
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Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Honestly stuck on ways to improve my DRK. In delve I either end up 1) Parsing ahead of the other DD by a long margin and getting killed or 2) Parse last because the zones are more suited to the awesome 119 MNKs. I prefer 2), if i'm the worst dd, then everything will be fine :D

I only know one DRK who beats me, and i'm not sure how, he probably uses spellcast or something.

Now I will go level DRK just to show you how it's done.

And I'll crush you using . . . . . . 119 Caladbolg? For the LOLZ!

In all Seriousness though, I always loved the special features of Apoc over Ragnarok.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2014-05-14 14:07:51
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Creaucent Alazrin said: »
Right ok so tanking delve nms without a single cure because the whm sucks isnt worth mentioning. Id like to see you do it abd thats without /dnc and I see you also missed that part out. I see what my friends on levi said about you is true.
tanking delve nms without a single cure lowers your whms af3 legs return, since any whm worth their salt is using curagas primarily

unless you're using a setup with all apocs and no whms, in which case i question how you're managing debuffs and highly doubt your efficiency anyway

i don't really care what anyone on levi says about me, since i solo content better than any full linkshell on the server can do it
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2014-05-14 14:08:33
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I would love to have Apoc just to mess around with, but I know for a fact if I went to any delve and used Apoc, I would be told to stop sucking and use my Rag. And yeah, you would outparse me on WHM, you're not even human Conagh.
 Cerberus.Avalon
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By Cerberus.Avalon 2014-05-14 14:11:53
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Cerberus.Kylos said: »
I would love to have Apoc just to mess around with, but I know for a fact if I went to any delve and used Apoc, I would be told to stop sucking and use my Rag. And yeah, you would outparse me on WHM, you're not even human Conagh.

Conagh reminds me of Sherlock Holmes in that his mind is full of algorithms and mathematical equations on how the game works. One of these days he'll figure out how to out parse Mythic SAM's on his WHM.
 Cerberus.Conagh
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2014-05-14 14:16:51
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Cerberus.Avalon said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
I would love to have Apoc just to mess around with, but I know for a fact if I went to any delve and used Apoc, I would be told to stop sucking and use my Rag. And yeah, you would outparse me on WHM, you're not even human Conagh.

Conagh reminds me of Sherlock Holmes in that his mind is full of algorithms and mathematical equations on how the game works. One of these days he'll figure out how to out parse Mythic SAM's on his WHM.

I all ready did, you chance your macros to this


/cure 4 conagh.

And let the Mythic SAM die.

WIN!
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2014-05-14 14:17:35
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I know.. he literally dual boxed SCH and WHM during tojil the other day, and yawned over and over again as he kept Tojil stunned, kept us all alive, hasted us, debuffed us, all the while being drunk and tired. He's not human, he's some kind of alien machine pretending to be a scotsmen.
 Bismarck.Hsieh
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By Bismarck.Hsieh 2014-05-14 14:18:06
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Cerberus.Kylos said: »
I would love to have Apoc just to mess around with, but I know for a fact if I went to any delve and used Apoc, I would be told to stop sucking and use my Rag. And yeah, you would outparse me on WHM, you're not even human Conagh.
Not true if your WHM or healer sucks. It is also good for holding mobs.
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2014-05-14 14:19:09
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Bismarck.Hsieh said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
I would love to have Apoc just to mess around with, but I know for a fact if I went to any delve and used Apoc, I would be told to stop sucking and use my Rag. And yeah, you would outparse me on WHM, you're not even human Conagh.
Not true if your WHM or healer sucks. It is also good for holding mobs.

Sure I already said that, as did a million others in this thread.
 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-05-14 14:21:28
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Creaucent Alazrin said: »
Right ok so tanking delve nms without a single cure because the whm sucks isnt worth mentioning. Id like to see you do it abd thats without /dnc and I see you also missed that part out. I see what my friends on levi said about you is true.

if you are tanking without cures, there are bigger issues than what weapon you're using.
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 Cerberus.Conagh
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By Cerberus.Conagh 2014-05-14 14:22:18
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Cerberus.Kylos said: »
I know.. he literally dual boxed SCH and WHM during tojil the other day, and yawned over and over again as he kept Tojil stunned, kept us all alive, hasted us, debuffed us, all the while being drunk and tired. He's not human, he's some kind of alien machine pretending to be a scotsmen.

I wasn't aware SCH or WHM were hard to play . . . . hardly something to brag about :3

These sorts of weapons will always be contested due to the various players and their ability, perfect situation a Ragnarok should always win, its always nice to have apoc for oh ***moments.
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 Bismarck.Hsieh
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By Bismarck.Hsieh 2014-05-14 14:42:12
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Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Bismarck.Hsieh said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
I would love to have Apoc just to mess around with, but I know for a fact if I went to any delve and used Apoc, I would be told to stop sucking and use my Rag. And yeah, you would outparse me on WHM, you're not even human Conagh.
Not true if your WHM or healer sucks. It is also good for holding mobs.

Sure I already said that, as did a million others in this thread.
Well if you put it like that then everything in the game is situational....as did a million others have said in every thread.

Point is if you have two relics for one job people are not going to tell you how to play your job. There are no drawbacks on having more options. You have to look at it in terms of efficiency. If you have another DD taking massive amounts of dmg, they will be the mp sponge.

Sorry but no one will tell you "to stop sucking" and switch to ragnarok if you are aware of the situation and know how to play the job.
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By Sylph.Limlight 2014-05-14 14:42:51
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I can't believe i'm in a thread like this but oh well.

Both have a use. Apoc's use is more niche but it has a use. Rag for huge damage when massive aoe damage isn't really an issue. Apoc for when you know your healer is going to be really busy. Plus I just feel safer to SE freely with apoc even with a good whm.

I have both and use both. You can't go wrong with either. (granted rag is easier to replace with the newer Gswords but for high tier content you'll want that acc it provides and the white damage it brings to the table is hard to beat)
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 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-05-15 09:01:41
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Ok here is the thing about Apoc, if you have a competent WHM then it's probably not helping you and likely hurting your WHM. This is because your not the only melee present and damn near everything in the game is aoe now. Good WHM's rely on curaga's to keep melee's alive because it's faster casting one curaga then two to three single target cures, cheaper too. Now if your CATABroing it, your just costing your WHM more MP and getting curaga'd for 0 half the time.

EX: 6 man Delve

NM use's attack, which are now aoe btw. Hits all three DD's for 700 damage. WHM casts Curaga III for 600HP each, 1800HP total with a 90MP return and a total cost of 72MP (/SCH). If the NM does an attack for 1K or more, you'd use Curaga IV for 1000HP each, 3000HP total with a 150MP return and a total cost of 84MP (/SCH).

Now insert CATABRO and what we get is the same aoe attacks for the same damage but instead of healing for 1800HP with Curaga III we instead get 1200HP with a 60MP return, total cost is now 102MP. It gets much worse with Curaga IV. Again same 1K attack but instead of 3000HP cured we get 2000HP cured and a 100MP return, total cost is now 134MP. For "topping off" WHM's should be using Curaga II's.

The only situation CATA will help you is when the WHM just finished casting a spell and the NM use's a severe damage attack and you have 100TP. Any attack that would just hit you, the WHM's already casting a ST cure as your reaching for your CATA macro and chances are you'll WS, then cause the WHM to hit you with Cure IV/V for 0HP that cost full price.

Now if your soloing stuff, dual boxing stuff, or doing stuff without a WHM, then CATA is your best friend. Of course if your WHM sucks and has a 6s+ response time then you might want to hold that Apoc with a death grip.
 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2014-05-15 17:17:23
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Apoc's usefulness has decayed over the years due to a decrease in the efficacy of both its aftermath and WS hidden effect:
1) When the total Haste cap was added and Cata aftermath became equipment-based.
2) When the equipment Haste cap became easily reachable by DRK.
3) When it became easy to cap magic Haste without 2-hours using Marches + Haste (plus Desperate Blows meaning you only need 11.25% Haste in gear when Last Resort is up.)
4) When WHMs got infinite MP thanks to AF3+2 pants, the single strongest piece of AF3 in the game.
5) When Last Resort was adjusted to have a longer duration, making situation #3 much more common
6) When almost all iLevel gear included some degree of Haste, making capping equipment Haste on DRK almost unavoidable.

So now Cata is a mediocre solo tool for a job that shouldn't really be used for soloing.
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 Shiva.Siral
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By Shiva.Siral 2014-05-15 17:51:13
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Pretty sure Crobaci +2 with good augments beats Rag in most situations.

Get Crobaci for GS.
Get Apoc for Scythe. You're not going to match the utility with any other weapon.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-05-15 17:54:14
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Shiva.Siral said: »
Pretty sure Crobaci +2 with good augments beats Rag in most situations.

Get Crobaci for GS.
Get Apoc for Scythe. You're not going to match the utility with any other weapon.

it's pretty marginal when you take od2.5 into account and build around the accuracy on Ragnarok. it's definitely easier to obtain and x-hit, though.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-05-15 17:54:40
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Shiva.Siral said: »
Pretty sure Crobaci +2 with good augments beats Rag in most situations.

Nope, I have a well augmented Crobaci +2 and Rag still beats it. Crit +14%, 2.5x damage proc, 242 skill with +40 acc is beyond amazing.
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 Shiva.Siral
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By Shiva.Siral 2014-05-15 18:13:48
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Well maybe you can show some parses?

I thought the same for a while too but plugging it into spreadsheets shows Crobaci ahead unless you need the acc. Unless I'm doing something wrong.

That being said, it's very close either way. Not enough to justify the price of Rag(in my opinion) and would personally go for Apoc.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-05-15 18:34:23
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Shiva.Siral said: »
Well maybe you can show some parses?

I thought the same for a while too but plugging it into spreadsheets shows Crobaci ahead unless you need the acc. Unless I'm doing something wrong.

That being said, it's very close either way. Not enough to justify the price of Rag(in my opinion) and would personally go for Apoc.

Spreedsheets and parses both have Rag leading, providing you build around it rather then trying to use the same set for both, even if you don't need the accuracy. It's the +14% crit and 2.5x proc that put it ahead in melee damage. Chances are your putting in the wrong ODD values for each.
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By Asura.Ccl 2014-05-15 19:36:51
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You shouldn't put any ODD value for rag on spreadsheet, and last time I checked crobaci+2 was ahead unless you needed the acc.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-05-15 20:10:23
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Asura.Ccl said: »
You shouldn't put any ODD value for rag on spreadsheet, and last time I checked crobaci+2 was ahead unless you needed the acc.

I just checked the spreedsheet, it's not adding ODD for Rag.

Here is the value for Relic
Code
=IF(LEFT($Gear.$B3;10)="Apocalypse"; IF(ISERROR(VALUE(RIGHT($Gear.$B3;3))); 0; VALUE(RIGHT($Gear.$B3;3))); 0)


When corrected it has Rag ahead of Crobaci +2.

I have a Crobaci +2 with DMG +24 Acc +8 WS DMG+10% (first hit only). Played around with both it and 119 Rag and Rag won every time. Typed it all into the DPS spreedsheets and again Rag won. Later tonight I can retype it all in again and check.
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By Asura.Ccl 2014-05-15 20:30:24
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oh I guess if the drk one isn't "working properly" and doesn't have built in odd on rag, you might be right then I'm pretty sure I wasn't inputing odd back then.
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-05-15 20:35:13
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Asura.Ccl said: »
oh I guess if the drk one isn't "working properly" and doesn't have built in odd on rag, you might be right then I'm pretty sure I wasn't inputing odd back then.

I get Rag and skirmish GS very close, depends on buffs and target, but when I adjust gearsets to offset the 40 accuracy on Rag I get Rag ahead by ~10 DPS overall. Either way, the main advantage to skirmish +2 weapons is that the are reasonably powerful for the effort and cost and easier to X-hit.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Kenrusai 2014-05-15 22:48:24
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lolpoc

Is kinda sad though, remember playing with a few apoc DRKs back at 75 cap, so stronk.

Byrth's list of how Apoc got progessively weaker, from being quite an amazing weapon, is abit depressing!
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-05-16 03:58:16
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Odin.Jassik said: »
Asura.Ccl said: »
oh I guess if the drk one isn't "working properly" dealnd doesn't have built in odd on rag, you might be right then I'm pretty sure I wasn't inputing odd back then.

I get Rag and skirmish GS very close, depends on buffs and target, but when I adjust gearsets to offset the 40 accuracy on Rag I get Rag ahead by ~10 DPS overall. Either way, the main advantage to skirmish +2 weapons is that the are reasonably powerful for the effort and cost and easier to X-hit.

The difference is definitely not very large and really depends on gear and target. I favor Rag largely because anything worth doing tends to be ridiculously evasive. That 52 acc is a huge boost along with crits meaning more when you are not attack capped. In that respect Rag is the "deal lots of damage to really tough ***" weapon along with Liberator.
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