SQUARE ENIX - Financial Speculation

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SQUARE ENIX - Financial speculation
 Valefor.Applebottoms
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By Valefor.Applebottoms 2013-06-29 15:09:15
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fonewear said: »
Ragnarok.Kongming said: »
I really want them to go under. I think once their IPs are sold off to a company (or companies) that actually know the games and the fanbases enough to actually respect them, we can see the types of games we deserve to see again. Companies like Level 5, Matrix Software, and Silicon Studios are all far more capable of carrying on the FF/DQ product lines than SE themselves.

SE has become essentially the EA of Japan, a publishing house too big for its own good, and far too removed from the end product to care about anything more than the bottom line.

I'll take Level 5 over SE any day of the week.
I paid 8 bucks for Crimson Shroud from Level 5 for my 3DS.. was one of the best RPGs that I've played in a long time. Plus rolling dice was fun!

I paid 600 bucks for an Xbox system with FF13... never beat the game and traded both of them in.

Seriously, they need to get back to GOOD story telling. Every person that defends 13 always says "but the battle system..", but what about the STORY!? A good story usually wins over game play, and I think SE has lost that somewhere.
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 Shiva.Viciousss
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2013-06-29 15:35:36
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A superior battle system (which 13 did not have, more like "good") can save a game with a subpar story, just look at Star Ocean: TTEOT. SE still makes good battle systems, they have just completely lost their way in character design and storytelling. I mean, FFXV looks like a boy band cast.
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By Bismarck.Patrik 2013-06-29 15:36:05
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I loved the story in XIII >.>; but it would seem I'm in the minority.

I can understand many of the other complaints about the game but the story was one I never shared.
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 Leviathan.Andret
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By Leviathan.Andret 2013-06-29 15:36:38
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It seems the situation is clear for SE. They don't make many bad games but their investments into their actual games (not spin-off or remakes) are too high. A single failure hurts SE badly. Even a moderate success still hurt SE financially. They have been overreaching since Squaresoft days. Their solution is instead of consolidating their assets and re-focus their goals, they just expand more to find a profitable and sustainable income to fund their failing projects.

If FFXIV 2.0 fails to be a sustainable success or at least to be something SE can sell to investors then SE will have to face some really tough decisions. The best case would a restructuring of their company and projects. SE would begin to close off projects that have high costs and focus on a few projects that can bring them out of the red 1st. This would mean no more new and fresh FF games but more of the spin-offs and off-shoot and remakes and smaller games. Worst case would be like THQ, failed and get torn to tiny pieces. I hope EA is not expanding into Japan market and buy a piece of SE if this happen... *sob* Bioware....

It's obviously now that SE have been looking at the gate of doom for quite a while and they have been trying to turn around or at least find a way to soften the blow when stuff hits the fan. They began buying off moderately successful IPs and hope to make money from them to fund their main projects as well as help them expand their market into NA and EU. These IPs turned out to be cult status IPs and only got their fans instead of selling strong to new gamers. They also raise a lot of remakes and spin-offs - which have low costs to make - to bring in quick cash and increase the general value of their IP. However, these seem to lower their main game values instead of strengthening them.

SE is realizing that most if not all of their games and their IPs are either obscure or only managed to achieved cult status instead of going mainstream. FF series is famous not because of the games themselves but rather because of the fans. They have a lot of hardcore loyal fans and most of their games tend to get these fans to play. What they don't have is the ability to reach out to new customers (like FF8 which got them new fans) with their games lately.

I think SE will consider all their other options before they jump into the F2P market. It's not a pretty market because you will quickly lose your brand and devolves your quality games into some quick cash grab scheme (not that they are doing any better with remakes anyways). Ideally, SE would create a new game for F2P purposes (I think they have Waka? or something F2P) and hopefully manage to create a stronger income base from it.
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By Bismarck.Patrik 2013-06-29 15:55:42
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Regarding your last sentence, Andret. It's Wakfu and its... as much of a f2p as lotro is. You can play for free with severe limits up to a certain point then its a monthly fee for full access. Also this is a game owned by a French company that SE is only the publisher for in NA... so they probably haven't learned anything from it.
 Cerberus.Senkyuutai
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2013-06-29 16:00:22
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Bismarck.Patrik said: »
I loved the story in XIII >.>; but it would seem I'm in the minority.

I can understand many of the other complaints about the game but the story was one I never shared.
There is a story in FFXIII?

FFXII had an absolutely terrible story but FFXIII brought it to a whole new level of terrible. I can't even see what was objectively good about FFXIII.

Shiva.Viciousss said: »
SE still makes good battle systems, they have just completely lost their way in character design and storytelling. I mean, FFXV looks like a boy band cast.
Pretty much.

But it seems like it's a Japanese thing nowadays, as Capcom has the same issue. They need to drop this whole feminine boy harem stereotype.

Bismarck.Patrik said: »
Regarding your last sentence, Andret. It's Wakfu and its... as much of a f2p as lotro is. You can play for free with severe limits up to a certain point then its a monthly fee for full access. Also this is a game owned by a French company that SE is only the publisher for in NA... so they probably haven't learned anything from it.
^

Ankama is the company behind Wakfu, SE literally has 0 impact.
 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-06-29 16:04:18
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Excuse me but do you remember Squall? He was entirely pulled out of a fashion magazine with Gackt's face. Tidus has the typical girly face too. The fact that their male characters are like this is nothing new at all.
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 Shiva.Viciousss
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By Shiva.Viciousss 2013-06-29 16:07:54
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Name that boy band.
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 Bismarck.Patrik
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By Bismarck.Patrik 2013-06-29 16:09:38
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Eh well the quality of XIII's story is entirely of one's own opinion. I'm sure you realize as well as I do that it did in fact HAVE a story, regardless of how little one likes it, all that dialogue wasn't just random words shoved together from the dictionary. All I'm saying is it's unfair to say a story IS bad or that it IS good, because there's no facts to be made there it's completely subjective. XIII was certainly a disappointment but it still was rated by most as a decent game, just not the masterpiece it was hyped to be. Of course you could argue the hype was the only reason it created a profit.

Anyway that talk of story is the matter of opinion. I didn't find XIII, or any SE FFs, to match up to Sakaguchi's narrative skill, but I still enjoy them enough to buy them, but I'm not as picky as others. So I agree that from a financial standpoint, SE needs to reevaluate these ideas... although I do really enjoy Nomura's story-telling, so I have high hopes for XV's story quality and hope he will run more projects outside of Kingdom Hearts.
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 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-06-29 16:10:21
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I'm quite bothered by his pants. You can't wear short pants with boots.
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 Cerberus.Senkyuutai
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2013-06-29 16:12:19
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They solved this with FFIX (here and there) and FFX, for example. Then they went back to it and pushed it to the max.

Sadness.

Valefor.Sehachan said: »
I'm quite bothered by his pants. You can't wear short pants with boots.
It's bad but they didn't go full Yoshida on them, thankfully.
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By omnys 2013-06-29 16:24:49
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Blazed1979 said: »
I'm not an expert in finance either, but I am in Marketing. The fact that their strategy with FFXIV has moved from Marketing to PR to me demonstrates how tight their budget is.

PR is great for building loyalty and customer retention. But it isn't nearly as effective as marketing in gaining new customers or penetrating new markets and growing or increasing the size of your target market.

Eh, FF14 is already known. It's as big a name as RIFT, probably. It's just a bad name. Customer relations is probably what's best for the game. They have to convince people that the game is more than just pretty.

Problem is, they've *already* used the "PS3 limitations" excuse once. Some question about more objects in the game environment.

They're doing a lot more listening, and responding, to players than they ever have in regard to XI, but they're already copping out on issues--

You can't recieve tells while in a dungeon. Se says this is because tells are a "distraction". Nonsense, if tells are a distraction, players have /away. They could go the route of WoW's addon "Deadly Boss Mods" that tells the sender of a tell when the recipient is in a boss-encounter, so the recipient can expect a delayed reply.

* * *

I won't say XIV is a WoW clone. It isn't, but it has borrowed heavily from WoW. Something the developers proudly admitted before or during Alpha testing.

The precedent has shown that games following WoW just... don't succeed. RIFT is probably the most successful, and it wasn't anything spectacular.

There's not much of a precedent for post-WoW games that didn't follow WoW. There's uh.. TSW, which had the most amazing questing ever but they completely phoned-it-in on the combat and people gradually drifted away. TERA, almost the opposite, had amazing combat but they unabashedly had the worst questing system ever, while simultaneously being a quest-grinder, and people couldn't stick with it.

Had an MMO come out with TSW's questing and TERA's combat, it would probably be making waves.

Companies keep trying to go for the ELEVENTY MILLION PLAYERS that WoW used to advertise, but they don't realize that the players aren't even there anymore. I'd much prefer a game have more realistic expectations.

One thing MMO companies apparently need psychologists to explain to them: We develop attachment to our pixels and our friend's pixels. When people do leave an MMO that they've been satisfied with, they want something different. Playing RIFT, truthfully, didn't feel a whole lot different than rerolling in Warcraft.

Aiming for 500k instead of 4 million and not going to incorporate voice-acting for that reason? Fine by me!
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 Bismarck.Dracondria
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By Bismarck.Dracondria 2013-06-29 16:45:53
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
I'm quite bothered by his pants. You can't wear short pants with boots.

I liked his outfit in the first trailer more (the one from way back)
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By Blazed1979 2013-06-30 10:23:45
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omnys said: »
Blazed1979 said: »
I'm not an expert in finance either, but I am in Marketing. The fact that their strategy with FFXIV has moved from Marketing to PR to me demonstrates how tight their budget is.

PR is great for building loyalty and customer retention. But it isn't nearly as effective as marketing in gaining new customers or penetrating new markets and growing or increasing the size of your target market.

Eh, FF14 is already known. It's as big a name as RIFT, probably. It's just a bad name. Customer relations is probably what's best for the game. They have to convince people that the game is more than just pretty.

Problem is, they've *already* used the "PS3 limitations" excuse once. Some question about more objects in the game environment.

They're doing a lot more listening, and responding, to players than they ever have in regard to XI, but they're already copping out on issues--

You can't recieve tells while in a dungeon. Se says this is because tells are a "distraction". Nonsense, if tells are a distraction, players have /away. They could go the route of WoW's addon "Deadly Boss Mods" that tells the sender of a tell when the recipient is in a boss-encounter, so the recipient can expect a delayed reply.

* * *

I won't say XIV is a WoW clone. It isn't, but it has borrowed heavily from WoW. Something the developers proudly admitted before or during Alpha testing.

The precedent has shown that games following WoW just... don't succeed. RIFT is probably the most successful, and it wasn't anything spectacular.

There's not much of a precedent for post-WoW games that didn't follow WoW. There's uh.. TSW, which had the most amazing questing ever but they completely phoned-it-in on the combat and people gradually drifted away. TERA, almost the opposite, had amazing combat but they unabashedly had the worst questing system ever, while simultaneously being a quest-grinder, and people couldn't stick with it.

Had an MMO come out with TSW's questing and TERA's combat, it would probably be making waves.

Companies keep trying to go for the ELEVENTY MILLION PLAYERS that WoW used to advertise, but they don't realize that the players aren't even there anymore. I'd much prefer a game have more realistic expectations.

One thing MMO companies apparently need psychologists to explain to them: We develop attachment to our pixels and our friend's pixels. When people do leave an MMO that they've been satisfied with, they want something different. Playing RIFT, truthfully, didn't feel a whole lot different than rerolling in Warcraft.

Aiming for 500k instead of 4 million and not going to incorporate voice-acting for that reason? Fine by me!

Agree with 95% of this. Only thing I would add, I do think positioning XIV in the right light, to the right audience would drastically help.
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By Ragnarok.Alahra 2013-06-30 10:47:30
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Bismarck.Patrik said: »
I loved the story in XIII >.>; but it would seem I'm in the minority.

I can understand many of the other complaints about the game but the story was one I never shared.

I enjoyed XIII's story as well.
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By Blazed1979 2013-06-30 10:55:05
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Ragnarok.Alahra said: »
Bismarck.Patrik said: »
I loved the story in XIII >.>; but it would seem I'm in the minority.

I can understand many of the other complaints about the game but the story was one I never shared.

I enjoyed XIII's story as well.

Please don't share that with anyone less SE hear you and give us another spin-off of XIII
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2013-06-30 10:56:26
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Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
400 million dollars to develop FFXIV 1.0?! Are the servers on Mars?

It cost 200m to develop SWTOR.
60-100m to develop WoW.
FFXI cost 24m to develop. That's the number being thrown around but it seems awfully low.

Yikes, the costs for XIV must run over half a billion USD. They best get working on that cash shop ASAP.


If the number is real, maybe they waste too much money on expensive, and yet not so exciting CGs? lol

Or maybe it's because of PS3 version.

Or they just aren't using money efficiently.
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By Quiznor 2013-06-30 11:00:29
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Ragnarok.Afania said: »
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
400 million dollars to develop FFXIV 1.0?! Are the servers on Mars?

It cost 200m to develop SWTOR.
60-100m to develop WoW.
FFXI cost 24m to develop. That's the number being thrown around but it seems awfully low.

Yikes, the costs for XIV must run over half a billion USD. They best get working on that cash shop ASAP.


If the number is real, maybe they waste too much money on expensive, and yet not so exciting CGs? lol

Or maybe it's because of PS3 version.

Or they just aren't using money efficiently.

If it was 400m development costs to date (rapture>1.0>2.0) I'd well believe it. 400m seems alot for 1.0 though.
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2013-06-30 11:04:05
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omnys said: »
There's not much of a precedent for post-WoW games that didn't follow WoW. There's uh.. TSW, which had the most amazing questing ever but they completely phoned-it-in on the combat and people gradually drifted away. TERA, almost the opposite, had amazing combat but they unabashedly had the worst questing system ever, while simultaneously being a quest-grinder, and people couldn't stick with it.

Had an MMO come out with TSW's questing and TERA's combat, it would probably be making waves.


Idk why everyone praise TERA's combat, it's not that amazing....I mean if I want to play a more action oriented game, I'd just go play action game.

I mean, combat isn't bad, but it's not something that'd save this game. I wouldn't play a MMO just for TERA's battle system. I pretty much just played it for the look and art, then quit :x
 Cerberus.Senkyuutai
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By Cerberus.Senkyuutai 2013-06-30 11:08:44
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They made their own tools for 1.0, that's why it's so expensive, it was a project built from the very root that was far above the standards (still is, somehow).
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By Quiznor 2013-06-30 11:13:11
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Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »
They made their own tools for 1.0, that's why it's so expensive, it was a project built from the very root that was far above the standards (still is, somehow).

They built XIII (engine included) from the ground up as well. And their new Luminous engine too. Although XV/v13 is a bad example. *** blackhole of a money pit
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By Ragnarok.Alahra 2013-06-30 11:15:35
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Blazed1979 said: »
Ragnarok.Alahra said: »
Bismarck.Patrik said: »
I loved the story in XIII >.>; but it would seem I'm in the minority.

I can understand many of the other complaints about the game but the story was one I never shared.

I enjoyed XIII's story as well.

Please don't share that with anyone less SE hear you and give us another spin-off of XIII

lol, I thought XIII-2 was largely pretty bad though. There were a few things I liked about it but the story was muddled (because they were too concerned about offering "choice" when it's not something they're good at) and they gutted the fun of the battle system.

Lightning Returns is the only game I'm really looking forward to at the moment (other than next gen stuff). >.>
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By Quetzalcoatl.Marael 2013-06-30 11:20:16
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Ragnarok.Alahra said: »
Bismarck.Patrik said: »
I loved the story in XIII >.>; but it would seem I'm in the minority.

I can understand many of the other complaints about the game but the story was one I never shared.

I enjoyed XIII's story as well.

I will say this for XIII's story. I liked it more than XII's. However, that is like saying "of two hot pokers in the eye, one of them burnt a little less." Both games had abysmal storylines, I enjoyed XIII more than XII for the simple reason that I enjoyed ONE character in XIII, where I wanted to drag every single XII character out back behind the barn and give them both barrels. That is not to say that I enjoyed XIII, he~ll no. I just hated it less than I hated XII.
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By Blazed1979 2013-06-30 11:20:39
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Cerberus.Senkyuutai said: »
They made their own tools for 1.0, that's why it's so expensive, it was a project built from the very root that was far above the standards (still is, somehow).

Luminous Edge or something.

Since FFVIII all FF games have cost a lot more than the industry average. Square has been spending big $$$ on its titles for some time now.

For the longest time, FF titles were about aesthetics and unrivaled cut scenes. We often overlook this. Summoning Bahamut used to be pretty epic. Graphics on that scale is common now. But back then it was rare. Compare an FF title in the 90's to a Legend of Zelda title. There was no comparison in game scale. SE has continued with this model while the rest of the industry has caught up and found cheaper, more cost effective ways to produce the same results.

Using an in house game engine is probably their biggest flaw. Last I heard they have abandoned this approach and are going to start contracting Unreal Technology. If I'm not mistaken, I think 2.0 already uses the Unreal engine.



Square has always focused on development in terms of funds and not so much on Marketing/promoting their products. It is safe to say that their unexpected success with the FF series in North America without ever having really marketed it there, dictated their long term business strategy over seas.

Probably the same reason why, until recently, they have focused on their JP consumer base, and games were always released in Japan long before they hit EU/NA shores.


I guess they kinda took their global audience for granted.


EDIT: Remember Final Fantasy: Spirits Within? That cost them a kidney and then some. And it was all about looks.
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By Ragnarok.Alahra 2013-06-30 11:22:42
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Quetzalcoatl.Marael said: »
Ragnarok.Alahra said: »
Bismarck.Patrik said: »
I loved the story in XIII >.>; but it would seem I'm in the minority.

I can understand many of the other complaints about the game but the story was one I never shared.

I enjoyed XIII's story as well.

I will say this for XIII's story. I liked it more than XII's. However, that is like saying "of two hot pokers in the eye, one of them burnt a little less." Both games had abysmal storylines, I enjoyed XIII more than XII for the simple reason that I enjoyed ONE character in XIII, where I wanted to drag every single XII character out back behind the barn and give them both barrels. That is not to say that I enjoyed XIII, he~ll no. I just hated it less than I hated XII.

I wanted to like XII's story, but it really felt like it was all over the place. I loved Balthier to death though, which got me through it.
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By Quiznor 2013-06-30 11:25:03
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I thought they were just using an updated version of Crystal Tools? Because the ps3 does a shite job of the unreal engine. And I cant imagine SE squeezed THAT (re:based on beta test so far) much out of the ps3 with it
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By Ragnarok.Alahra 2013-06-30 11:27:38
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Quiznor said: »
I thought they were just using an updated version of Crystal Tools? Because the ps3 does a shite job of the unreal engine. And I cant imagine SE squeezed THAT (re:based on beta test so far) much out of the ps3 with it

I was about to ask about Crystal Tools--I thought I had read somewhere that they were building a new engine for the future instead.

If they do stick with Crystal Tools it'd probably do a lot to reign in their development costs in the long term, so I'm kinda hoping they do.
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By Blazed1979 2013-06-30 11:32:51
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Clicky
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By Quiznor 2013-06-30 11:34:59
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Ragnarok.Alahra said: »
Quiznor said: »
I thought they were just using an updated version of Crystal Tools? Because the ps3 does a shite job of the unreal engine. And I cant imagine SE squeezed THAT (re:based on beta test so far) much out of the ps3 with it

I was about to ask about Crystal Tools--I thought I had read somewhere that they were building a new engine for the future instead.

If they do stick with Crystal Tools it'd probably do a lot to reign in their development costs in the long term, so I'm kinda hoping they do.

Luminous is their new engine,for KH3 and (from what I believe) XV now and onwards.

Idk if 2.0 uses that though.I highly doubt it

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By Quiznor 2013-06-30 11:36:07
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Blazed1979 said: »

Doesnt list any games though
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