Tojil Strat!

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Tojil Strat!
 Ragnarok.Ghishlain
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By Ragnarok.Ghishlain 2013-07-03 13:10:04
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Valefor.Angierus said: »
If you don't have 8 songs I wouldn't even bother attempting the boss, you could get away with 6

My LS has done Tojil with five songs before. I think we ended up dropping a Madrigal so we had 2x March, Madrigal, and 2x Minuet. So it IS doable, but can definitely take longer and be at higher risk of a Stun resist as the fight drones on.

Eight songs is not mandatory, but having eight songs is incredibly beneficial.
 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-07-03 13:14:32
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People have done 4-song Tojil. JPs farming (on Fenrir) don't even seem to bother using Soul Voice or Bolster, but they'll shout for hours upon hours for Daurdablas.

We usually have 6 songs, since our only non-mule Daur 99 also has a Yagrush.
 Odin.Boleslaus
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By Odin.Boleslaus 2013-07-03 17:32:00
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does any one know if goin monk/run and taking off shield is actually beneficial?
 Asura.Ccl
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By Asura.Ccl 2013-07-03 17:34:48
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Even when we have 2 4song daur on we only care about 6song really, if you SV or use multiple embrava 5 song is more than enough!
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By Bismarck.Helel 2013-07-03 17:39:04
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Embrava should be up the entire fight if you're using 2 SCH/BLM. As long as healers can keep haste up, you can drop both marches.
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-07-03 17:41:43
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Embrava + Haste spell no longer caps magic haste!
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 Odin.Boleslaus
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By Odin.Boleslaus 2013-07-03 18:00:28
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was that with the embrava nerf?
 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2013-07-03 18:04:06
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Yes.
 Asura.Gabba
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By Asura.Gabba 2013-07-03 18:54:21
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Valefor.Tiniky said: »
Valefor.Angierus said: »
Valefor.Tiniky said: »
What rolls do the CORs usually do? What if they don't swap? What if they do swap?

Swapping on boss is critical, we do Hunters and Chaos on first two rolls, second set of rolls is Figher's and Rouge's, we keep the swapped CORs in PT, and when Hunters falls they just start reapplying how they would if they were in their original parties.

For everything but the boss, we don't bother because ***dies within 3-4 minutes of pull that I don't think there would be much of a difference if we had rouges and fighters on.

If you don't have 8 songs I wouldn't even bother attempting the boss, you could get away with 6 but with just 4 you are not even gaining enough benefit, that'd leave you with March, March, Madrigal Madrigal, no attack buffs leaves you hurting badly.


I guess my LS will have a full time job on getting those bards their DDB! SP2 is about to be released soon, which means they will be getting one free song every 1 hour, that will help the 3 song DDBs out!

I suppose you don't bother swapping bards during normal NMs either. 4 songs / bard would be so nice.. Such an OP item..


yaaaaaa.. free "song"... re read new SPs...
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By itchi508 2013-07-25 09:03:09
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Lookig for a lil incite/tips. Currently recruiting for delve Tojil clear. Atm i am only /sh doing 1-3NM with all pick ups & having 15+ minutes left over to farm trash. As of now i have no ideal mnk rdm or stun sch, reason i haven't attempted kurma/peiste.

Heres the question, once i find a few more good members to make a optimal set up (mnk sch rdm) "and we are comfortable working together with practice" then i could avoid shouting and work with a orginized group.
would anyone suggjest to use beads for the 1st few wins? (Getting people KI + possible drops (oat's) could really improve our mnks for future 1-5clear in ideal time. Or should i continue to just work on the 1-5 and avoid beads?

Thanks in advance for any tips/advice
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2013-07-25 09:16:15
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If you have the damage to clear Tojil, you can clear 1-5 beforehand easy. Tojil's effective time limit is ~12 min from engage due to stun resistance, for a beginning group. An experienced group can survive Lahar, but it's pretty unlikely to be a win if you're working with rigor and getting Lahared(due to damage loss). You should be able to clear all NMs in 25 minutes with a bit of practice.

There's nothing terribly wrong with using beads, but keep in mind that it'll probably take you ~4h to farm 3 of them. If you can even go 1/4 on clearing NMs fast enough, you'll have better time efficiency spamming the actual run(and get more gear & plasm). If you can't go 1/4 on clearing NMs fast enough, you aren't ready for Tojil anyway. If anything, I'd say to only bead Kurma.
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 Lakshmi.Cledant
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By Lakshmi.Cledant 2013-07-25 09:58:11
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I don't understand the rigor comment, implying that can't with with delve weps?
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By Fenrir.Sigfreid 2013-07-25 10:03:24
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Itchi, we were managing to clear 4 NMs even with Eriaxa's retarded setups, main problems we encountered were people that couldn't understand how to invite people fast during cor/brd rotations and just general stupidity.
Also we tried to farm to bead it to make it a little easier but nobody wants to put the work into that, they just want to show up and get the win.

/edit
I agree with Comeatmebro, if you're going to bead any NM, Kurma is the most likely to be a cause of huge time sink, also depending on the speeds you do the Eft and Raptor, Matamata might be a good choice to bead, but that's kinda a waste given how easy he is to kill (we still managed to have people *** that up though)
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By itchi508 2013-07-25 10:07:46
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Fenrir.Sigfreid said: »
Itchi, we were managing to clear 4 NMs even with Eriaxa's retarded setups, main problems we encountered were people that couldn't understand how to invite people fast during cor/brd rotations and just general stupidity.
Also we tried to farm to bead it to make it a little easier but nobody wants to put the work into that, they just want to show up and get the win.
I haven't even bothered with rotations yet, as for a pick up group I'm not going to give myself a headache. If i did rotations and they didn't *** up we could clear 1-3 a lot faster than i already have been doing with under skilled randoms who i don't even screen. Im no where near a 1-5 clear yet as I'm still recruiting. Just looking ahead to ready my plans.
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By Fenrir.Sigfreid 2013-07-25 10:15:47
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itchi508 said: »
I haven't even bothered with rotations yet, as for a pick up group I'm not going to give myself a headache. If i did rotations and they didn't *** up we could clear 1-3 a lot faster than i already have been doing with under skilled randoms who i don't even screen.
If you do attempt to do rotations with randoms, need to make sure its DDs from your LS that are party leaders, Mages have other ***to focus on, so they should never be leads.
Leads need to have macros to invite both BRDs and CORs, helps also if the COR/BRDs are from the same LS as well, just helps to make it second nature, if not, do a test run outside so people get the hang of it and reduce chances of *** ups when you really do not want them to happen.
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By itchi508 2013-07-25 10:20:02
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Fenrir.Sigfreid said: »
itchi508 said: »
I haven't even bothered with rotations yet, as for a pick up group I'm not going to give myself a headache. If i did rotations and they didn't *** up we could clear 1-3 a lot faster than i already have been doing with under skilled randoms who i don't even screen.
If you do attempt to do rotations with randoms, need to make sure its DDs from your LS that are party leaders, Mages have other ***to focus on, so they should never be leads.
Leads need to have macros to invite both BRDs and CORs, helps also if the COR/BRDs are from the same LS as well, just helps to make it second nature, if not, do a test run outside so people get the hang of it and reduce chances of *** ups when you really do not want them to happen.
Oh of course, lol we no that pugs will *** up tho, reason i wont bother with rotations until i have 18members from Ls i can count on to understand instructions & strategy. At this point with rdm & sch i could do 1-4 w/o rotations as a pug.
So well geared Ls members with rotation & practice, i can see us doing 1-5 in time & have the honor of Tojil beating the piss out of us before we time out :p

But also i as well as everyone needs improvements gear & strategy wise, as i have only done about 10ish plasm runs ever and only been leading them for past 2days. This is a good start considering i have minimal delve experience & no one is guiding me, I'm only leading from my knowledge & homework iv done on the NMs. So there is ALOT of room for improvements!
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By Valefor.Nugzkraka 2013-07-25 10:54:58
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Odin.Boleslaus said: »
does any one know if goin monk/run and taking off shield is actually beneficial?

Yes it removes the aura
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2013-07-25 11:05:41
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Lakshmi.Cledant said: »
I don't understand the rigor comment, implying that can't with with delve weps?
Obviously not, I won without any HQ delve gear on any person in alliance. A group trying for their win with rigor will have less leeway to get lahared, is all. I'm in no way suggesting or recommending people have the gear to farm the mob for the gear, simply offering information relevant to their setup.

Losing a minute of your soul voice songs and bolster to weakness(and possibly DD deaths) is much more damaging when you kill in 9 minutes than it is when you kill in 5.
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By Odin.Boleslaus 2013-07-25 11:15:11
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If I remember correctly if u take off his shield he gains a aoe dispel tp move
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2013-07-25 11:22:41
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Lahar's weakness will likely cost you a DD, aoe dispel will definitely cost you the run if you're undergeared. Until you have boss weapons and some of the higher acc gear(or next patch comes through), SV is a huge help and you can't afford to lose all that damage. Weakness is a problem, but survivable.

No matter how good your stunners(or stunbots) are, you'll always have a chance of missing moves due to SE's crappy networking and them putting skirmish/delve/assault/salvage all on the same machine.
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By itchi508 2013-07-25 11:36:53
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Set up i am currently shooting for:
Mnk Mnk Drg Whm Brd Cor
Mnk Mnk Mnk Whm Brd Cor
Pld Geo Geo Sch Sch Rdm

Currently going pld incase of mistakes i can hold NMs wile they recover. Now how about tojil, should i still bring a pld to hold all the mobs i would assume wile the party takes toj? Or are people clearing the room and fighting Toj away from the adds that repop?
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2013-07-25 11:40:04
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you don't really need 5 mnks, you'd be better off taking a 2nd drg for fulltime angon if fight drags on or a heavy slashing dd to make up time in slashing phase.. 2 mnks per party is 12 min of mantra if you use it wisely and damage-wise mnk is still pretty weak compared to DRK WAR SAM

i always use a brd in the pld slot because marching schs on pre-nms is nice and its not very hard to handle all pulls with brd saccing but nothing wrong with pld if thats easier for you

holding while they recover is pointless, if you're wiping on pre-nms it's not a win
 Valefor.Nugzkraka
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By Valefor.Nugzkraka 2013-07-25 12:12:55
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Odin.Boleslaus said: »
If I remember correctly if u take off his shield he gains a aoe dispel tp move


Its single target
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2013-07-25 12:14:25
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Valefor.Nugzkraka said: »
Odin.Boleslaus said: »
If I remember correctly if u take off his shield he gains a aoe dispel tp move


Its single target
its cone and much more dangerous than lahar, esp to a pre-oati group

there's no reason you should be removing aura
 Ragnarok.Afania
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2013-07-25 12:19:59
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itchi508 said: »
Lookig for a lil incite/tips. Currently recruiting for delve Tojil clear. Atm i am only /sh doing 1-3NM with all pick ups & having 15+ minutes left over to farm trash. As of now i have no ideal mnk rdm or stun sch, reason i haven't attempted kurma/peiste.

Heres the question, once i find a few more good members to make a optimal set up (mnk sch rdm) "and we are comfortable working together with practice" then i could avoid shouting and work with a orginized group.
would anyone suggjest to use beads for the 1st few wins? (Getting people KI + possible drops (oat's) could really improve our mnks for future 1-5clear in ideal time. Or should i continue to just work on the 1-5 and avoid beads?

Thanks in advance for any tips/advice


Mata is the only NM worth beading for, because if you *** up you gonna lose a lot of time.

Every other NM usually just melt, including Kurma, remember to embrava on Kurma. If your ally can't kill it fast enough, or have stun/heal issue on those NMs, you will have hard time on Tojil too. You may as well practice killing those 4 NM properly to have a chance on Tojil.

I suggest Senbaak DRK over DRG because, you can grab a Senbaak on AH for 20M, plus chaos roll boost. DRG isn't bad, just getting well geared DRG is much harder than getting a well geared DRK. If you can get a good DRG go ahead, if you can't then don't just force yourself to invite a gimp one just for angon. You're losing more dmg than actually gaining the benefit from it.

No experience with WAR with new skill+ GA yet, so no comment on WAR.
 Valefor.Nugzkraka
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By Valefor.Nugzkraka 2013-07-25 12:42:03
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Valefor.Nugzkraka said: »
Odin.Boleslaus said: »
If I remember correctly if u take off his shield he gains a aoe dispel tp move


Its single target
its cone and much more dangerous than lahar, esp to a pre-oati group

there's no reason you should be removing aura

easy to stun and w/o aura you kill faster.

If you miss a stun dispel is not as bad as aoe weakness
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2013-07-25 12:44:28
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pardon me for not taking your word for it

it's piss-easy to live through weakness with scherzo if your mages aren't asleep, you can't guarantee you'll get soul voice back and a group trying for first win is going to be very time pressed due to their lower damage output

not capping attack during aura = using buffs wrong, needs to be fixed anyway

if you want to remove aura on your runs, be my guest, just don't give people ***advice
 Valefor.Nugzkraka
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By Valefor.Nugzkraka 2013-07-25 12:51:30
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
pardon me for not taking your word for it

it's piss-easy to live through weakness with scherzo if your mages aren't asleep, you can't guarantee you'll get soul voice back and a group trying for first win is going to be very time pressed due to their lower damage output

not capping attack during aura = using buffs wrong, needs to be fixed anyway

if you want to remove aura on your runs, be my guest, just don't give people ***advice

Your excused, Lahar sucks end of story
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2013-07-25 13:00:52
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I know you killed a Tojil this week and you're all super-excited. Try to calm down and make a rational argument.

Weakness has never resulted in more than 1 dead DD for my group, and usually isn't even that. You can easily calculate the DPS lost from soul voice songs missing: the variance in lost buffs means that unless it's in the first 2 minutes you'll be losing SV on everyone when you reapply songs for the dispelled DD. Hint: It's a lot. If your melee don't already have heavily ranked armor or oatixur, it's even worse because your accuracy will go down.

You can continue a fight with 5 DD. If you lose that much of your DPS through soul voice, in a group that doesn't have excess damage, you're going to run out of time(be it in the zone, due to stun resist capping, or simply due to mages finally hitting CE cap and it running off).

If you're consistantly letting TP go off, then you're not going to win either way. If you aren't, you need to focus on the setup that will provide the highest probability of win. That will always be lahar and /war.

Saying a one liner and claiming to be right doesn't convince anyone of anything, it just makes you look like an idiot.
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 Valefor.Angierus
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By Valefor.Angierus 2013-07-25 13:25:48
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Giving up a DRG for a senbaak DRK seems like a terrible idea.

first angon lasts the full duration of the first 75%, spirit surge lasts for I'm not sure how long because I'm usually not paying attention but I'd wager it's up until about mid 30%, and then angon from the rest, fight goes down in about 6min, bringing MNK/RUN is not worth giving up the added benefit of /WAR you can overcome his atk down aura easily by stacking enough def- debuffs.
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