December 12, 2012 Version Update

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December 12, 2012 Version Update
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 Leviathan.Kincard
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By Leviathan.Kincard 2012-12-01 06:19:45
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Try reading/processing a post in its entirety before you respond to it by putting words in other peoples' mouths. You seemed to have missed the fact that I said F100 specifically, which is where the linen drops. If you don't realize how much the regain from embrava helps in Neo Nyzul then you probably have never done the event before.

They're making it easier, but everyone's going to favor doing F80, where it drops a cotton. How very silly of me to point out that an average of 10 alex at the end in a successful run is just a bit less than an average of 75 at the end of a run.
 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2012-12-01 06:24:56
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"Everyone?"

I think at this point most people will continue not doing NNI because they've capped on the stuff they want.
 Leviathan.Kincard
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By Leviathan.Kincard 2012-12-01 06:36:10
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There's plenty of people that haven't capped gear too (and in fact are waiting for this patch to make it easier). Or are you just counting yourself/Forum regulars that cap everything in a month as everyone? How does that change/disprove my point that when people do Neo Nyzul now it's going to yield almost a tenth of alexandrite of what it used to yield?
 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2012-12-01 06:39:58
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But if they're not winning NNI now, they're not putting 75 alex / run in.

Besides, it takes 5 clears of floor 80 to make one piece of gear, so it really doesn't change much at all.
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2012-12-01 06:47:36
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Actually, it'll probably result in a net increase of Alexandrite produced per player, since floor 80 gear is worthless.
 Leviathan.Kincard
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By Leviathan.Kincard 2012-12-01 06:50:39
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Hm, true enough that spread over time it'll probably get more alexandrite in.
 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2012-12-01 06:56:38
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Reasoning: For a group of 6 players capping 15 pieces of gear

Floor 100 win * 15
Except floor 100 drops gear. I estimate that each member will get 1/3 of their gear from drops. So that's about 11-12 clears to get everyone through NNI.

11-12 * 75 / 6 ~ 138-150+ Alex produced per player on average, ignoring drops from other bosses and NMs (that's what the + is for)

For floor 80 wins, you have to do 5 wins per piece, so 75 wins total. Cotton purses average 12.5 alex. So 156+ pieces of alex per player.
[+]
 Leviathan.Kincard
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By Leviathan.Kincard 2012-12-01 08:18:49
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Whatever the case, my original point was that I seriously doubt Alex prices will be affected in any significant way unles new salvage drops like 300-400 pieces per run. You're spending the same permit you could've used the get into normal salvage. You need to split the alex with other people/create lotting system deciding between gear or alex. If you're not capped on neo nyzul, you are spending tags to get assault point instead of doing neo nyzul. I feel that if the price does get affected, it will drop to like 15k per, at most, unless they truly decide to go insane and make every single NM in new salvage drop linens or populate the entire zone with nothing but archaic gears or something.
 Ragnarok.Fasaga
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By Ragnarok.Fasaga 2012-12-01 08:22:21
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Good players with the right setup should still be able to clear nyzul fl 100. Of my original static 5/6 members all have apoc, 3 of us have sch, and 2 of us have dura/ghorn. With a BRD SCH and 4x Apoc DRK's I'm fairly certain that we could still win at a high rate. We are all 15/15 but my point is that people are just not gonna be able to come on war and sam and expect to drag the whole zone while fighting family mobs. Leave the BRD at the rune and do double marches, or if your lucky double marches and minuets. The ability to have up to an 11 jump mixed with the reduced delay on order floors should be enough to clear. However in the end it's all up to luck.
 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2012-12-01 08:28:34
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On my server alex dropped to 15k just from the influx of people doing NNI to build their base sets up in anticipation of upgrading them.
 Leviathan.Kincard
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By Leviathan.Kincard 2012-12-01 08:36:29
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Heh, different for every server I guess. Depends on how many crazies you have doing mythics. Been holding really steady at 20k on Leviathan, and they don't exactly sell slowly. About a week ago I saw a bazaar with about 2000+ pieces at 20k per disappear overnight.
 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2012-12-01 08:42:11
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Large quantities of anything like currency,hmps, etc. get a higher price, this is how resellers stay in business.
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By Leviathan.Kincard 2012-12-01 08:51:46
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I get that, I was more saying that this wasn't a case where someone bought up something that took a lot longer to sell because of the price markup. Bazaars with like ~30-60 pieces at 20k disappear overnight on Leviathan as well. I'm of the opinion that the increased supply would just make it easier for the rich people to find bazaars with Alex in them, which is why I am being pretty down on this whole idea that Alex prices are going to crash for some reason. If they do, it's going to require the event have amazing gear, drop a ton of alexandrite per run, and then have people figure out the event and run it efficiently. That's gonna take several months, if it happens at all.
 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2012-12-01 09:02:41
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I don't think they'll crash immediately, but if the event has longevity and the gear is worth getting, then it's almost guaranteed to crash eventually.
 Leviathan.Kincard
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By Leviathan.Kincard 2012-12-01 09:19:15
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I dunno, the only reason I can see Alex going down is because of deflation due to the gil fountain being jammed, in which case everything's going to be going down in price (Ancient currency has gone down a little bit since cruor nerf). I ask again that if Dynamis renewal increased ancient currency by several times and prices barely budged, why would Alexandrite somehow be different in that regard?
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2012-12-01 09:24:10
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There are no significant barriers to building multiple relics, either.
 Asura.Aikchan
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By Asura.Aikchan 2012-12-01 09:36:56
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the main diference between dynamis currency and alex is that you can solo farm Dynamis, if you could do the same w/ salvage you would see more ppl w/ mythic and alex prices "balanced"
 Leviathan.Kincard
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By Leviathan.Kincard 2012-12-01 09:39:16
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Except even if you could farm salvage solo, 20k is actually a very appropriate price for it to be at. A typical SSR run gets me like 60-80 pieces of alexandrite. Let's say I get 100. At 2M/Dynamis run and a SSR run taking 90 min, it would be equivalent to 15k worth per alex. If you were doing it "properly" with the whole 3-person entry factored in they would be 45-60k each, god forbid.

This is why I keep saying New Salvage needs to drop like 400 pieces per run to even be equivalent, because it's competing against the original salvage as it uses the same permit, and you need to actually split the money at the end.
 Asura.Aikchan
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By Asura.Aikchan 2012-12-01 09:42:21
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lets say you used to farm it w/ 3 and used to get ~130... solo get 100, those 3 ppl solo, and get 300 per day.. how it sound now?
 Leviathan.Kincard
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By Leviathan.Kincard 2012-12-01 09:46:01
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What does that have to do with the fact that 15k+ is what the price is appropriately even without factoring the 3-person entry when you consider the time investment VS what you make in Dynamis? The funny thing is that I already biased the example towards your argument because I made the assumption that a single person was farming, which is why the price is 20k. If it was actually 3 people splitting them, for the time investment they would have to sell it at 45k-60k each to have it be equal to Dynamis.
 Asura.Ccl
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By Asura.Ccl 2012-12-01 09:54:48
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IF the gear is worth it(and drop rate is anything like old salvage/vw) a lot of people that don't care about a mythic(or don't farm dynamis currency for gil) will do salvage everyday, gil from alex will just be "extra" so price should go down, I expect a lot more people to do salvage than there are people farming dynamis for currency.
 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2012-12-01 09:56:57
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Just went in and checked it out for you guys because SE has helpfully labeled things "NM" in the .dats, like "Chigoe NM" on the test server:

Arrapago - 13 things labeled "NM" in the .dats. I suspect you'll only be able to fight a max of 7 of them in a given run (two of them are duplicated x4, I think)

Bhaflau - 12 things labeled "NM" Again, 6 of them are in a row so perhaps you can only fight one of them.

SSR - 9 NMs, many of which appear to be spawned from ramparts? LAC also makes a cameo for some reason

Zhayolm - 10 NMs, one of which appears to have 4 copies of itself meaning you can maybe hit 7 per run.

Other things of note:
1) They've added a shitton of archaic machinery since the last time I checked. Perhaps as much as current SSR.
2) There appears to be an HQ and NQ boss. Khimaira and Khimaira 2, for instance.
3) Neo SSR looks like it might be Bhaflau-esque. There are a lot of Ramparts in this zone with 2~3 monsters (sometimes including an NM) after them. I am displeased.


Regardless, the monster list has increased dramatically since the last time I looked at it. It looks like they really might have ***working for December.
 Leviathan.Kincard
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By Leviathan.Kincard 2012-12-01 09:59:53
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We're going in circles here, kinda. It's not like I'm against Alexandrites coming down in price, it's just that don't see it realistically happening when demand is high even when the price is 20k each. When the demand continues to be high despite the price, people are only selling low only when they want it gone immediately from their inventory, or they're super special nice and want to make life easier for the mythic builder. When you're doing neo salvage for the gear and get gil as a bonus, are you going to sell it for less just because you can, or are you going to get as much gil as you can out of the deal (20k per) and still have it sell like hotcakes?
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2012-12-01 10:04:40
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Right now demand exceeds supply. But the alexandrite market is much more easily saturated than the dynamis currency market.
 Leviathan.Kincard
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By Leviathan.Kincard 2012-12-01 10:12:43
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Eh, I dunno. A relic requires ~18000 ancient currency, a single person, even if they're not well-geared, can pull in 150 bills a day.

A mythic requires ~30000 Alexandrite, and a single person, assuming they bother doing salvage at all, pulls in ~80 pieces a day.

I honestly don't expect new salvage to drop more than 200 pieces in a single perfect run, at best. Split between 6 people, each person is bringing in ~40 a day. Even if a lot fewer people do mythics its sort of corresponding to the fact that alexandrite's in much shorter supply.

I mean, we'll see. Maybe they'll make new salvage drop 1000 pieces a run and I'll eat my zukin, lol.
 Fenrir.Sylow
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2012-12-01 10:30:12
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You're assuming from a currency farming standpoint. If the gear is desirable, then more people will do salvage. I don't think its unreasonable to estimate 100/run. If 50 groups are doing new salvage daily, that's a mythic every 6 days.

Mythics aren't like relics, you can't just do them endlessly. In the time it takes to complete the other requirements more alexandrite accumulates and while you are completing a mythic the a mythic you're discouraged from holding a second mythic's worth of alex due to inventory constraints.

It doesn't matter if you can get more solo, the point is people aren't farming alexandrite currently at a rate which meets demand, because people Aren't doing the event.
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By Asura.Aikchan 2012-12-01 10:35:17
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Fenrir.Sylow said: »
You're assuming from a currency farming standpoint. If the gear is desirable, then more people will do salvage. I don't think its unreasonable to estimate 100/run. If 50 groups are doing new salvage daily, that's a mythic every 6 days.

Mythics aren't like relics, you can't just do them endlessly. In the time it takes to complete the other requirements more alexandrite accumulates and while you are completing a mythic the a mythic you're discouraged from holding a second mythic's worth of alex due to inventory constraints.

It doesn't matter if you can get more solo, the point is people aren't farming alexandrite currently at a rate which meets demand, because people Aren't doing the event.

85% of the mythic are... useless.... showoff? or more 17/20 are lol... >.>

If is its like "old salvage" If you decide to "farm" gear you probably wont get as many alexandrites as if you go just to farm them. And after Neo Limbus Gear.. Not expecting anything wow...
 Leviathan.Kincard
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By Leviathan.Kincard 2012-12-01 10:43:46
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Quote:
85% of the mythic are... useless.... showoff? or more 17/20 are lol... >.>

At 75 that was the case, at 99 most of them are...well, at least usable.

The ones that are actually "good" are WHM SAM DRG SMN BLU PUP...I think.

The ones that are still basically worthless are RDM, SCH, NIN...I guess RNG?
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2012-12-01 10:45:29
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Well, it depends. Based on the list I just gave, I'd be unsurprised to learn that the new Salvage runs will put out about the same amount of Alex per run as the old zones. So you have 6 people burning a tag every day to farm one old-zone worth of Alexandrite, when they could use the same tag to farm 6 old-zones worth of Alexandrite.

But... do they normally? There are very few people that farm Salvage every day or even once a week, and it seems likely to me that people will do this event ~5 days a week like old salvage.


I'd be kind of unsurprised if neo-salvage was the death of Legion.
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By Fenrir.Sylow 2012-12-01 10:45:30
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SE would have to be really stupid to make neo-salvage not worth doing. Really stupid.
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