Macros Gimping Damage/healing

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Macros gimping damage/healing
 Fairy.Tyh
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By Fairy.Tyh 2009-02-03 14:12:56
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Now i know this sounds weird, but hear me out x.x.

While i was playing as Gacent on BST/WHM (20/10) after a failed Wings of Fury Solo attempt i waited for Weakened to wear, and once it did, i began to Cure bomb myself, BUT! something didn't add up.

now before i go on, i will say that when i done my curing it was in the middle of the day and the moonphase nor Direction i was facing changed, my healing was capped with no extra mods, My 'Cure' Macro was a simple "/ma "Cure" <me>".

Ok, So, i begin curing myself using rhe Menu (Enter -> Magic -> Cure -> Enter) and i healed for quite a bit, NOW when i used my Cure Macro, it healed me for less than what it was while i was curing through the Menu.

I also noticed this during PTs on my MNK as Tyh, My Menu Activated Boost/Asuran Fists would do Equal, if not MORE than a Macroed Boost/Asuran (and yes, i made sure that i was setting it under the same equips, my Menu B-AF took out a lot more of the mobs Percantage than a Macroed B-AF.

So what the hell! do Macros gimp the Damage and Healing abilities of players?
 Fairy.Chaossoul
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By Fairy.Chaossoul 2009-02-03 14:20:03
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I've noticed this too while using Cure IV... would cure for 405 w/ light staff on macro, but for 422 w/ light staff if I selected the spell from menu... strange, but...
 Fairy.Conchita
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By Fairy.Conchita 2009-02-03 14:20:16
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I don't see a difference :/ only time I see a difference is in double dark weather zones (dynamis) or in limbus zones (lightweather)
 Ramuh.Sidi
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By Ramuh.Sidi 2009-02-03 23:47:38
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that is weird... never noticed anything myself, but now gotta test XD
 Ragnarok.Anye
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By Ragnarok.Anye 2009-02-03 23:58:20
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Maybe you're setting your /equip macro too late? I did that before, but with my Hospitaler Earring on my PLD cure macros.
 Garuda.Littledarc
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By Garuda.Littledarc 2009-02-04 00:24:56
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facing direction affects curing? first time i heard that.
 Remora.Devek
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By Remora.Devek 2009-02-04 05:16:23
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No.
 Asura.Korpg
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By Asura.Korpg 2009-02-04 05:25:16
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Anye said:
Maybe you're setting your /equip macro too late? I did that before, but with my Hospitaler Earring on my PLD cure macros.


I believe Anye has it correct.

Sometimes, when I'm on RDM and "main heal" (aka I can't nuke the ***out of anything, nor debuff, so basically its either standing around with my thumb up my *** or use the magics that make RDMs "lol") and I just got out of /healing mode, the cures think that I'm curing with a Pluto's Staff (instead of the lollightstaff that I rarely use) so it probably is a late macro.

>.> Don't make this into a lolRDMmainheal thread please
 Fairy.Tyh
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By Fairy.Tyh 2009-02-04 05:57:55
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@Littledark: I wasn't saying that direction mattered, i know that, i just added it in there to say bascily "nothing changed" xD

@Anye+Korpg if you're talking about the MNK times, that that may be the case, but if it was for the BST/WHM then like i said anything i had equiped when i done the cures stayed the same, there was no change whatsoever to my equipment or the environment around me.

One reason i wont lvl RDM is because of lolmainheal x.x had enough of that at 27 levels of WHM (we all know the first 10 don't count =P)
 Garuda.Wooooodum
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By Garuda.Wooooodum 2009-02-04 06:28:17
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I'm going to go ahead and guess that it was something to do with the day, or something like that. I know for a fact that curing through the menu and curing through a macro restores the same amount of hit points.

Macros can "gimp" damage sometimes, but it's not the macros themselves that gimp it, it's the gear swaps. I have two macros that I hit before using weapon skills on ninja (Yeah, I don't use Windower so I can only put six things a macro.) Sometimes I press the second macro before every gear swap from the first has executed, meaning one or two pieces of gear aren't swapped in.

Other than a situation like that, I can't think why you'd have got this in Ghelsba Outpost. Only thing that comes to mind is the day of the week, since Ghelsba doesn't get any light or dark weathers.
 Unicorn.Sedres
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By Unicorn.Sedres 2009-02-04 06:30:49
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Try whacking in your equip changes before the spellcast in your macro. If I put my AF helm in after I smacked meditate, I doubt I'd get the bonus. Kinda like how adding haste after you start casting won't speed up the cast, just the recast.
 Cerberus.Saiya
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By Cerberus.Saiya 2009-02-04 07:03:51
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Generally with my equip macros i do all the equipping 'first', then cast the spell. Same with equipping a stave for a spell with short casting time. Never noticed anything particularly amiss ^^;
 Hades.Kvazz
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By Hades.Kvazz 2009-02-04 07:07:40
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Sedres said:
Try whacking in your equip changes before the spellcast in your macro. If I put my AF helm in after I smacked meditate, I doubt I'd get the bonus. Kinda like how adding haste after you start casting won't speed up the cast, just the recast.

Not that haste shorten spellcasting anyways, but with fastcast-gear this is a fact, yes.
 Unicorn.Vxsote
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By Unicorn.Vxsote 2009-02-04 10:31:34
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Another thing to note (although it's probably not what is coming into play here) is that the equip swaps in macros are fast... but they happen in order, and are neither simultaneous nor instant. You can interrupt a macro by pressing another macro before it finishes, and it is very much possible to interrupt a macro before all of the gear swaps have occurred. Add to this the delay before gear swaps are shown graphically on your character, and it's quite possible to be casting in gear other than what you think.
 Ragnarok.Anye
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By Ragnarok.Anye 2009-02-04 11:04:38
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Littledarc said:
facing direction affects curing? first time i heard that.


I'm just going to quote Jaerik from an older post from the Crafter's Crib in terms of "facing directions while curing/synthing/sneezing:
Jaerik said:
I'll chime in as a 8+ year developer of MMO's, and why professional experience makes me extremely skeptical of crafting rumors.

In every MMO to date that I've worked on directly (3 of them), the players have managed to come up with guides, equations, and explanations for world behavior that is infinitely more complex than the actual algorithm. We've had enormous dev meetings and whole industry summits trying to explain this inevitable behavior. The root of this phenomenon lies in a few different areas.

The problem lies in the fact that MMO development is hard. There are no other kinds of games out there that have as many asynchronously interacting systems. Features are exponentially harder to implement in an MMO than in a single-player game. The teams are generally many times larger, and the implementation of proposed features is run through a much more strict filter about money investment to value-add tradeoffs. Otherwise, it's very easy to keep implementing features and additional complexity in the interests of game "depth," and then later realizing you've coded something so complex that you can't even get to release. I've seen dozens of MMO's get canceled after falling into this trap.

This is a fancy way of saying that there is no reason for FF to have any of these layers of complexity on its crafting system. In fact, it would have made horrific business sense for them to even consider it. The amount of players who gain value from the complexity is nowhere near the costs to implement in terms of design, coding, and QA manpower. Not to mention that once such an overly complex system is in place, the simple act of even adding a single item to the game (and testing all possible combinations of factors to make sure you're not introducing an exploit or economic problem) takes weeks of QA time, and SE has shown nothing to indicate that they're working under this amount of delay.

However, players in MMO's tend to become very possessive of their accomplishments and perceived knowledge about the game they play. Players are more inclined, by human nature, to believe that their actions and accomplishments in-game require substantially more knowledge, skill, and tenacity than they really do. Players don't like to believe in randomness, and they will, by nature attempt to minimize the perceived effect of randomness on their accomplishments as much as possible. Randomness, to some extent, trivializes their perceived influence on the game, reduces their perceived ownership/investment, and minimizes many of their perceived accomplishments. So they will instinctively look for patterns and explanations for events that do not rely on randomness.

Confirmation bias also plays a role. Humans beings of all sorts are more inclined to make mental note of, and remember, statistical trials that validated their hypothesis than those that went against it. For example, let's say someone sets up the right moon phase, direction, crystal type, and everything correctly. They get 8 HQ's in a row. Then they try again another day where the moon phase and direction are wrong. They get 8 HQ's in a row. Human nature tends to see the first scenario as "Ah hah, I knew it!" and the second one as "Wow, I musta just gotten really lucky." A week later while posting on a board, they will remember the first scenario and post about it, but the second scenario will slip their mind as unimportant, or a fluke of chance.

No MMO to date has implemented a crafting system nearly as complex as the players claim FF's is. By several orders of magnitude. And in my experience and professional opinion, such a system would never be approved by the game's Producers. There is no business reason to do so.

However, all MMO's to date have had player theories about game systems equally as complex as this one. In most cases, players actually do develop theories and equations that seem to pan out with example data. But always, always, these theories are exaggerating the number of variables and failing to realize that the same statistical results can be achieved with only 1-2 variables and a good random number generator instead.
 Bismarck.Nours
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By Bismarck.Nours 2009-02-04 11:44:10
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Was it Darksday or Dark Weather? That's -10% potency right here.
 Fairy.Yakutatazu
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By Fairy.Yakutatazu 2009-02-04 12:01:10
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Well I just tested my MNK boost macro. I did my normal macro which was like:
/equip "Hands" "Temple gloves"
/ja Boost <me>
/wait 1
/equip "Hands" "Melee Gloves +1"
And I had 466 atk.

Then I manually put in AF gloves and boosted, and put my AF2 hands back on and again... 466 atk.

So Idk about the curing thing but as far as MNK boost goes it works with macro the same, perhaps since you were using Asuran Fists you might have had some critical hits or more hits period when you did it manually just by luck.

Idk just my 2 cents.
 Asura.Perrin
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By Asura.Perrin 2009-02-04 12:59:59
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If your macro includes a timed unequip, your timing could possibly be off. I had this issue with Meditate for awhile. Make sure your gear actually CHANGES before the move goes off. To test this, make the delays way longer than you'd expect, and test casting the spell in question or using the job ability in question. Check your stats, or throw a heal on someone that has taken damage, etc.... It's kinda ridiculous to be posting stuff like this without a lot of statistical backing and/or testing to verify your hypothesis. =P
 Fairy.Tyh
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By Fairy.Tyh 2009-02-04 17:17:02
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@Nours, not sure about the day, but as i said, the day didn't change and the Cures were changing between the two numbers.

@Yakutatazu, I don't think the Result of boost is what i meant but the damage output, Granted Asuran Fist is hard to test because of the 66% chance for all 8 hits to connect, which can vary results like you said with misses and crits, but 8 out of 10 times when we're fighting imps in the mire, i don't bother boosting and just Menu-> Asuran fists and it does more damage than a macroed Boost/Asuran Fist.
The MNK issue i wasn't too concerned about, i just found it weird about the BST/WHM stuff.

@perrin, When i done the testing, i was using 20cap gear as an Elvaan BST/WHM, and coming out of weakness before curing (so i wasn't curing while weakened then continued to cure after because that would effect ti i suppose) And like i said, there was no changes whatsoever during the testing, no stat or equip changes, Healing Magic was capped, and the macro i had was a simple "/ma "Cure" <me>" Line, no equip changes or anything+
 Sylph.Hitetsu
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By Sylph.Hitetsu 2009-02-04 17:24:32
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Tyh said:
@Nours, not sure about the day, but as i said, the day didn't change and the Cures were changing between the two numbers.


Darksday gives -10% potency to cures, it won't always kick in, but it has a chance to every time you cast Cure. Similar with lightsday, that gives +10% potency to cures (giving the chance to restore extra HP)
 Unicorn.Tavlov
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By Unicorn.Tavlov 2009-02-04 17:36:02
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As a thf, I've noticed this with Gearswaping macro's for WS's etc. To me it seems that there is a delay in gear swapping for the stats to take effect. To test this I did my gear macro then quickly went in to menu equip and I could see the numbers change. I believe that if there is even the slightest bit of lag, it will prolong this delay as well. Glad I'm not alone in this thinking.

To fix this I would swap gear in a macro by itself and usually wait for one more attack. (Best case for using SA~) Nothing worse then SA-> regular attack.. This would be a complete pain for a single swap + ability however, I would personally just manually change that.

Anyways, I've noticed this a long while ago and proceeded to change my playing habits. If time is a factor, I will not wait around.
 Fairy.Tyh
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By Fairy.Tyh 2009-02-04 17:52:26
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Hitetsu said:
Tyh said:
@Nours, not sure about the day, but as i said, the day didn't change and the Cures were changing between the two numbers.
Darksday gives -10% potency to cures, it won't always kick in, but it has a chance to every time you cast Cure. Similar with lightsday, that gives +10% potency to cures (giving the chance to restore extra HP)

Ahh, And i just remembered, it may have been firesday, because i remember having to wait a stinking hour so the Bats wouldn't resist my charm so much XD
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