Soul Jump, And Spirit Jump

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Soul Jump, and Spirit Jump
 Ragnarok.Amador
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By Ragnarok.Amador 2010-09-23 15:50:15
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Caitsith.Linear said:
I will. Velocious Belt cost 1/5 the price of Gungnir, but gives 1/3 the damage increase (not accounting for fSTR, dual marches or haste samba). So yeah, as far as cost effectiveness is concerned, it is. Not to mention, I'm willing to bet Rhongomiant will ***all over Gungnir, if it isn't already. And Corsesca+1 is already better iirc. And I'm pretty sure an aggressively played Ryunohige is better if the Augments Jump didn't get ruined by Soul/Spirit Jump auto-critting.

Velocious belt is actually free. And keep in mind you're comparing 2% vs a relic, not 6% haste vs 0% haste or whatever type of math you just did to get 1/3.

Rhong is nice, the WS is still to be tested to see if it's worth anything. If it is, it'll def be nice, but will it beat Drakes :)? IT still stands at -1 DMG -30 Accuracy compared to Gungnir. So, interesting!

Aggresive Ryuno is still lacking damage, and still requires quite a bit to be able to put out a punch. So it'd be close if not lacking behind.

As for Corsesca +1, well, toys are cute. Just like my Love Halbred is cute!

But I enjoy packing a nice decent punch.
 Caitsith.Linear
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By Caitsith.Linear 2010-09-23 15:54:42
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You do know haste works, right? The more you have, the better it does.

And I was going off relative cost. Velocious belt is the r/ex version of a 30mil belt.

Explain how Corsesca is a toy? the WS frequency is beastly.

*** big-number syndrome.
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By Asura.Tero 2010-09-23 15:55:26
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Just so you know >> spirit jump gives about double tp that a normal swing would give. For example if you were swinging and gaining 14 tp you would get 28. Soul jump gives tripple, ie if you swing for 14 you get 42tp and yes i have 85 drg and have noticed this.
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By Phoenix.Mogue 2010-09-23 16:28:14
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Ragnarok.Amador said:
Caitsith.Linear said:
I will. Velocious Belt cost 1/5 the price of Gungnir, but gives 1/3 the damage increase (not accounting for fSTR, dual marches or haste samba). So yeah, as far as cost effectiveness is concerned, it is. Not to mention, I'm willing to bet Rhongomiant will ***all over Gungnir, if it isn't already. And Corsesca+1 is already better iirc. And I'm pretty sure an aggressively played Ryunohige is better if the Augments Jump didn't get ruined by Soul/Spirit Jump auto-critting.

Velocious belt is actually free. And keep in mind you're comparing 2% vs a relic, not 6% haste vs 0% haste or whatever type of math you just did to get 1/3.

Rhong is nice, the WS is still to be tested to see if it's worth anything. If it is, it'll def be nice, but will it beat Drakes :)? IT still stands at -1 DMG -30 Accuracy compared to Gungnir. So, interesting!

Aggresive Ryuno is still lacking damage, and still requires quite a bit to be able to put out a punch. So it'd be close if not lacking behind.

As for Corsesca +1, well, toys are cute. Just like my Love Halbred is cute!

But I enjoy packing a nice decent punch.

You seem to think quite highly of yourself for someone who hasn't even cleared the lv75 trials on the relic god knows how many people helped you get and for someone who is still using a 4% haste belt in 2010.

For example, the Corsesca +1 you ignorantly dismiss actually beats the snot out of your Gungnir in its lv75 stage. So, who's using the toy?

inb4 100% irrelevant response and/or white knighting lsmates.
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 Ragnarok.Amador
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By Ragnarok.Amador 2010-09-24 11:18:51
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[/quote] You seem to think quite highly of yourself for someone who hasn't even cleared the lv75 trials on the relic god knows how many people helped you get and for someone who is still using a 4% haste belt in 2010. For example, the Corsesca +1 you ignorantly dismiss actually beats the snot out of your Gungnir in its lv75 stage. So, who's using the toy? inb4 100% irrelevant response and/or white knighting lsmates.[/quote]

You seem to think you know a whole lot about me! Not everyone has all the time in the world to work on trials right from the go, so pardon me for that :) Actually on the last trail to turn it into level 80, then I get work on the 126D path, so I'm fairly content with my progress.

Currently 109D +20 Accuracy Gungnir. Upgrade to be: 112D Accuracy +25. Hmm. It's not a toy by any means, it's a pretty serious weapon. Corseca +1 is nice indeed. Relics are powerful whether or not you want to see it that way.

As far as which investment is better in these stages of the game goes, Speed Belt vs. A Relic, be it any Relic, a Relic would be the answer. Goading, Velocious, BullWhip, Ninurta, Feddle or Fettle whichever.

End Result: 126 Acc30. Hate on it.
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By Ragnarok.Kyoshin 2010-09-24 12:05:41
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When has anyone said that relics aren't powerful? There are options that can rival it, especially one that hasn't been finished in trials.

"As for Corsesca +1, well, toys are cute."

"Corseca +1 is nice indeed."

^ Which do you honestly think, Amador?

Your logic of hating on DMG126 Acc+30 is a bit flawed as well, since if we were hating on damage and accuracy on a weapon we'd be a little more prompted to go target Apocalypse users. Y'know, the weapon that has more DMG and same accuracy as your Gungnir once finished? Turns out it also occasionally blinds the target, the weapon skill drains HP 'cept on undead, and it gives 10% gear haste as an aftermath.

I can fully understand going for a relic if you're up next on the dynamis LS sponsorship or whatever and they're quick about it, or if you've got nothing left to upgrade for any of your jobs. Even more so if that particular job is the only one you've got. When you don't fit into any of these categories:

Ragnarok.Kyoshin said:
It's generally more acceptable to spend less than a fifth of the cost of an average relic weapon to get an item (like Speed Belt) that can bolster the potential of many jobs, rather than spend the full cost of a relic for one. (Or a few, in some cases.)

The only time anyone has "hated" on Gungnir here is when I just now compared it to Apocalypse, and even then I still undoubtedly envy Gungnir. You've also been trying to list the other haste belts to say they're better than Speed Belt, and no doubt--but read my first post here. "Like Speed Belt", being that it was merely an option. You can get any of the other belts relatively free with enough effort and it's still an improvement to anyone--be they relic wielder or not. It can also boost your other jobs, which is a huge plus.

tl;dr: If you have multiple jobs and no direct relic sponsorship, go for a high-quantity haste belt that will benefit you more. If you have a relic and are using swift belt, go for the better haste belt still because it'd make your relic -and- your other jobs better. There is no reason to settle at swift belt when getting or upgrading your relic when a better belt could only help you.
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 Ragnarok.Amador
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By Ragnarok.Amador 2010-09-24 13:31:22
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Ragnarok.Kyoshin said:
When has anyone said that relics aren't powerful? There are options that can rival it, especially one that hasn't been finished in trials. "As for Corsesca +1, well, toys are cute." "Corseca +1 is nice indeed." ^ Which do you honestly think, Amador? Your logic of hating on DMG126 Acc+30 is a bit flawed as well, since if we were hating on damage and accuracy on a weapon we'd be a little more prompted to go target Apocalypse users.

To be honest I'm inbetween those two. I think it's a fun weapon, but I don't see it as a very serious weapon. Hitting hard, accurately, and not making the monster spam retarded abilities, over, and over is something I always like to focus on.

However, I do think it has it's place and I think it's a decent weapon. There are a couple of Magian weapons that are very nice, and I am tempted to play around with a few. However, when it comes down to it, after this game just gets crazier and crazier, I can't help but turn to the higher damage, more accurate, overall more beneficial weapons.

It's not just about DMG. It's about fSTR, Weapon Rank, and performance. Why didn't people spam Love Halbred back when the best weapons available ranged from 92-94 damage? No one argued that the TP gain with Love Halbred was sick, but everyone argued that the weaponskill damage was less than reputable.

I in more ways than one, have kept the same opinion over the Polearm OAT weapon. I by no means have a 126D Gungnir, working on it though. I have extremely high hopes, and am looking forward to the benefits I'll reap from the higher fSTR I'll be more than able to reach without issued of my weapon damage being too low for it to matter.

As for haste belts, I do agree they are amazing. I'm not saying they aren't believe me. I have my eye on a few. They by no means are easy to get however.

I have no hate on Apocalypse, it takes a good DRK to use one, and it takes a lot more than people can just realize in first glance. It's higher damage I see as fair due to it's higher delay. As for it's haste buff, I find that fair as well, because Catastrophe isn't a use everywhere WS. Like most things it is situational, and has it's appropriate application. It's damage is by no means massive, and over powering. So for those reasons I find the haste bonus fair.

In anycase! <_<; I don't see anyone blowing 30mil on the Speed Belts on Rag right now ^-^;
 Bahamut.Raenryong
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-09-24 13:38:06
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Quote:
It's not just about DMG. It's about fSTR, Weapon Rank, and performance. Why didn't people spam Love Halbred back when the best weapons available ranged from 92-94 damage? No one argued that the TP gain with Love Halbred was sick, but everyone argued that the weaponskill damage was less than reputable.

Because of the big number syndrome you are falling victim to yourself? Love Halberd is still very strong nowadays, and back then it crushed everything. It just wasn't used because OMG I'M NOT DOING HUEG NUMBERS.
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 Bahamut.Aiyana
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By Bahamut.Aiyana 2010-09-24 13:42:58
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Quote:
Hitting hard, accurately, and not making the monster spam retarded abilities, over, and over is something I always like to focus on.

I'm sorry, but why are you engaging a target in melee if you do not want it spamming retarded abilities?

That's what mages are for. TP starving enemies is not the task of any melee, try again.
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 Ragnarok.Amador
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By Ragnarok.Amador 2010-09-24 15:49:36
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Bahamut.Raenryong said:
Quote:
It's not just about DMG. It's about fSTR, Weapon Rank, and performance. Why didn't people spam Love Halbred back when the best weapons available ranged from 92-94 damage? No one argued that the TP gain with Love Halbred was sick, but everyone argued that the weaponskill damage was less than reputable.
Because of the big number syndrome you are falling victim to yourself? Love Halberd is still very strong nowadays, and back then it crushed everything. It just wasn't used because OMG I'M NOT DOING HUEG NUMBERS.

The damage on parses always showed that love halbred had very high melee damage, however lacked WS damage. It was however a nice fast way to spam ws's. However, they didn't pack the punch needed.

A while back we used to parse the Einherjar's my LS used to do, Love Halbred fell short quite a few times, while other higher damage lances did not. Their melee damage was lower, however the WS damage pushed the win easily.

Bahamut.Aiyana said:
Quote:
Hitting hard, accurately, and not making the monster spam retarded abilities, over, and over is something I always like to focus on.
I'm sorry, but why are you engaging a target in melee if you do not want it spamming retarded abilities? That's what mages are for. TP starving enemies is not the task of any melee, try again.

Some monsters are easily managed with minimal TP feed, however stack on 3-4 DD's and they'll spam retardly. Even a 300 AOE Ability can become a huge issue in that case. This is even more noticable on monsters that have TP Regen.

Yes, mages are always a good tactic, as well as anything ranged. However, sometimes and more often than not, some jobs are not always available. That's all, as far as annoying monsters go. Aside from that, everything else is fairly peachy.

Anyways, I still have my Love Halbred. It's fun, looks tight too!

Laterz
 Caitsith.Linear
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By Caitsith.Linear 2010-09-24 15:58:40
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Ragnarok.Amador said:
A while back we used to parse the Einherjar's my LS used to do, Love Halbred fell short quite a few times, while other higher damage lances did not. Their melee damage was lower, however the WS damage pushed the win easily.
Whoever was using the halberd sucked then. Last Einherjar I went to, we got bones and ghosts, and I was dominating the parse with Love Halberd, and my gear was less than stellar.
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-09-24 16:15:04
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Quote:
A while back we used to parse the Einherjar's my LS used to do, Love Halbred fell short quite a few times, while other higher damage lances did not. Their melee damage was lower, however the WS damage pushed the win easily.

Love Halberd vs Stingray +1 is 60D vs 105D. Add a reasonable 10fSTR during WS to both and you get 70BD vs 115BD. Drakesbane has a high mod so add ~40 WSC to both, so you get 110BD vs 145BD. Stingray +1 deals 31.8% stronger WSs through base damage but Love Halberd produces ~50% more WSs. Love Halberd will produce more weaponskill damage over time (it won't be exactly 50% due to delay, x-hit differences but around that). This is pretending Stingray+1 has no other stats of course, but against Thal there is no contest whatsoever.

Plus DEX+7 is pretty tasty for Drakes!
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 Caitsith.Linear
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By Caitsith.Linear 2010-09-24 16:23:43
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It's actually about a ~40-45% increase. Given Halberd swings ~19.6% faster than Stingray. And 8-hit -> 6-hit is only a 25% increase.
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-09-24 16:37:04
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8hit => 6hit is going from 7 hits between WS to 5 hits between WS, or 2/5 = 40%.
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By Bahamut.Zorander 2010-09-24 16:39:52
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The Raen has spoken.
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By Fenrir.Mankey 2010-09-24 16:53:04
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Why do people discredit DRG mythic? if played aggressively it shits all over Gugnir w/o even a question, just need to keep StageIII aftermath up which isn't a problem in a high haste situation, just sayin, Gugnir is poop, not speculation, its been proven over and over again, love halberd is right behind Ryun with little effort/gil. I hate snooty relic owners :( Just because it gives you a ***WS and some acc when your acc is capped any way doesn't make it good :(
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By Caitsith.Linear 2010-09-24 16:54:56
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If that's the case, the Stingray is the stronger weapon then unless that 7DEX is in the dDEX sweet spot. Especially if you manage to 5-hit it or have the WSDMG+10%.

I've been all for Ryunohige since the beginning. At least until now, because quite frankly, Soul Jump and Spirit Jump ruin the Jump Augment unless it's been changed.
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By Fenrir.Mankey 2010-09-24 16:56:18
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How is DRG OAT Polearm? is it as broken as the other jobs? Assuming it allows 6hit Sword strap with standard gear or 5hit potential with some extra STP?
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By Caitsith.Linear 2010-09-24 16:59:09
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Fenrir.Mankey said:
How is DRG OAT Polearm? is it as broken as the other jobs? Assuming it allows 6hit Sword strap with standard gear or 5hit potential with some extra STP?

OAT is a beast. Potential 5-hit or sword strap, procs on jumps and works with TPx2/3 from Spirit/Soul Jump too.
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By Bahamut.Zorander 2010-09-24 16:59:45
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Fenrir.Mankey said:
How is DRG OAT Polearm? is it as broken as the other jobs? Assuming it allows 6hit Sword strap with standard gear or 5hit potential with some extra STP?
yes its very broken.
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By Fenrir.Mankey 2010-09-24 17:01:39
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Caitsith.Linear said:
Fenrir.Mankey said:
How is DRG OAT Polearm? is it as broken as the other jobs? Assuming it allows 6hit Sword strap with standard gear or 5hit potential with some extra STP?

OAT is a beast. Potential 5-hit or sword strap, procs on jumps and works with TPx2/3 from Spirit/Soul Jump too.
I figure would go fully upgraded Ryu > OAT > Ryu > stingray 5hit? > Fully upgraded Gugnir >Love halberd > Norm Gugnir? I know for a facr Fully upgraded Ryu played aggressively is one of the top weapons in the game, problem is very few have completed, and sadly most of them are japs who TP in 5/5 askar and such.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2010-09-24 20:19:10
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Bahamut.Raenryong said:
8hit => 6hit is going from 7 hits between WS to 5 hits between WS, or 2/5 = 40%.
You'll lose some of that to more frequent TP overflow, no? JA delay as well obviously but the relative loss there is variable and potentially poorly quantified at the moment.
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-09-24 20:28:37
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Yah, you will. Which is why I like to say it's ~50% rather than the closer to 60% math can otherwise suggest. An actual figure would be hard to quantify.
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By Ragnarok.Bigsyke 2010-09-25 17:01:19
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Caitsith.Linear said:
I will. Velocious Belt cost 1/5 the price of Gungnir, but gives 1/3 the damage increase (not accounting for fSTR, dual marches or haste samba). So yeah, as far as cost effectiveness is concerned, it is.

Not to mention, I'm willing to bet Rhongomiant will ***all over Gungnir, if it isn't already. And Corsesca+1 is already better iirc. And I'm pretty sure an aggressively played Ryunohige is better if the Augments Jump didn't get ruined by Soul/Spirit Jump auto-critting.

Interestingly enough, I managed to grab a V belt for less than 20M on my server. Which happens to be Ragnarok.

Imagine that...
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By Ragnarok.Faneelk 2010-09-25 18:58:34
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You also have to account that Meditate and our Jumps give significant boosts to our WS frequency, and with Love Halberd's lower delay, you don't benefit quite as much.
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By Bahamut.Raenryong 2010-09-25 19:05:46
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Yah, which is why I find it's just convenient to give that figure. TOO MUCH CRAP GOING ON
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By Asura.Nususu 2010-09-25 19:06:31
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Can someone tell me what is meant by "agressively played ryunohige"? I am very curious as to what this strategy entails.
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By Caitsith.Linear 2010-09-25 19:09:54
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It basically means you're very attentive to your aftermath timer and spam 100%'s until you have absolutely no choice but to build for to 300% to keep OAT up.
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By Asura.Nususu 2010-09-25 19:11:40
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What's the OAT rate look like with aftermath?
 Caitsith.Linear
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By Caitsith.Linear 2010-09-25 19:12:30
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I think it's 45-50%? Like all pre-magian ones were.
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