Zerging Weapons

I guess this thread is two parts.

Does anyone have a chart that compares apocalypse to KC, Mkris and ridill in zerging? I'm well aware of raen's guide but it is not listed there. I of course know apoc is not the best weapon to zerg with atm but I am curious where it falls in comparison.

Secondly:

Anyone who has leveled up has noticed a decrease in HP returns per level and a dramatic increase in base damage on weapons. Should this trend continue does anyone think that weapons like Mkris and KC will be out dated EVENTUALLY by weapons with incredibly high base damage? I'm sure most people are aware that almost all the damage from KC and Mkris in a zerg is from the 12% HP souleater and not the weapon itself. If this is indeed the case how would you go about calculating estimated damage on a weapon with high base damage while zerging in general? Obviously your melee damage will vary depending on Pdif/fstr etc.

Kraken>MKris>Ridill I believe. Apoc is below them simply because it can only attack once per round.

Weapon damage doesn't matter all that much, it's the number of attacks you can cram into one round.

I'm pretty much guessing though, so don't take it to heart

Yeah i thought the damage was down to your HP, not anything to do with the damage on your weapon, which is why KC etc is used as you can hit as many times as possible in that 30 seconds.

I think you guys are missing the discussion here. When you use a weapon with high base damage it does very much add the base damage into account. For example Mkris is 200 damage per hit in a zerg typically and apoc is 400 damage per hit. Obviously apoc still loses but eventually the difference between the zerg HP damage the weapon damage itself is going to skew in favor of the weapon damage because each level up is not increasing HP values as high.

True a Kclub might hit several times with high dmg due to hp, but eventuly with a high enoug base dmg it would beomce equal. The question would be when and how it can be effected

Bano Del Sol or Gtfo.

Trial 1468: Maleficence (DMG: 51 Delay: 528 Occ. atk. 2-3 times)

I would like to know where these 2 weapons fit in the zerging spreadsheet :)

A super high base dmg weapon will win over time.

But the entire point of a zerg is to pump the most dmg you can in 30 seconds.

So, do both imo.

Have your k-club/m.kris, 2-hr zerg, die.

If the mob is still alive when you unweaken.

Whip out your high dmg scythe and go to town:p

You guys are still missing the point lol. We arent talking under current standards.

Question:

Zerg damage is comprised of two parts; Melee damage and soul eater damage. Soul eater damage is a % of your HP and melee damage is a function of your weapon. When does the weapon damage begin to out weigh the soul eater damage enough to beat KC/MK. Currently no weapon exists to my knowledge that can do this but eventually because our HP values arent sky rocketting and base damage weapons are, it will inevitably happen.

Oa3x should outdo Fortitude Axe and potentially Bzagh but still be below the onehanders. OaT will be below Fortitude Axe. Apoc I would estimate to do below Fortitude Axe.

Go to town with weakened speed reduction, no SV buffs, Haste if you're lucky?

lolwat

The zerg will be over by the time you're able to get back in there, much less contribute even quadruple digits post-Raise.

For Exc, not sure. Base damage is scaling up a lot faster than HP, I'd certainly expect KC zerg to lose a bit of its luster in the coming months.

You missed the point also though what they are saying is Kclub/Mkris do about 200ish a hit with souleater as apoc does around 400ish with souleater

What they are getting at is , at some point the base dmg of the new weapons are increasing more than HP is so hitting less times in 30 seconds but with higher dmg reutrns will eventually out do Mkris/Ridill/Kclub and other zerg weapons.

I can see maybe Mkris/Ridill getting out done eventually but not Kclub , unless they add a new 2-8 attacks weapon with a higher base dmg Kclub will remain the king of zerg weapons.

Assuming you're not bringing a DNC, Apoc is running a much higher haste value (78.75 to 80% instead of 68.75%) and can also WS.

Well not taking delay into account. I would say the KC is in a class of it's own considering the number of times it is possible to attack with per round. But the ridill and m.kris can only do 2-3 per round. So I would think if base damage is higher with a weapon that does hit 2-3 times per round, that it would make that weapon better than those weapons. Now I am not but sure how much delay and such would change this. But I figure if you do enough damage per hit (with 2-3 hits), even if you have to wait just slightly longer between rounds, you would at some point come out on top.

Thank you for explaining what I meant lol. Perhaps my wording was confusing.

If apoc would be hitting at 400ish and kc/mkris do 200ish than Apoc would need a massive dmg boost to be anywhere close to kc, and that boost would need to make it hit for 500+ per hit... atleast i'd think so lol, I'm not a genius to figure the formula of how much dmg Apoc would need to beat atleast Mkris :/

According to raens guide, Mkris with /drg and buffs yields about 51 hits in 30 seconds for 200 damage each or so.

51x200= 10,200 damage in 30 seconds average.

Apoc would be:
513-85%(haste cap)= 76.9/60= 1.2 seconds per attack round

30secs/1.2 seconds= 25

25x 400 damage = 10,000 damage.

Obviously this is not very accurate math and I'm sure there are errors but its an aproximation. The longer the zerg would go after blood weapon wears the higher I think apoc would be. I'm in no way saying this is accurate but that's my "theory" so to speak atm.

You'd probably reach closer to the 15k range using those figures. JA delay is approximately 2 seconds, weapon delay is 109 with 78.75% haste (102.6 with capped) so you're only giving up ~1.1-1.17 hits per WS, you can Med -> Sekka-> Cata -> Guillo (or reverse) to start and you'll get ~3 more WS in before BW wears (can refresh Cata on the last one).

EDIT: cap is 80%, so you'd have to rework your numbers around that fact then add WS in. ~12k as a more accurate figure.

http://tubbers.livejournal.com/7576.html

Apoc is notably absent from that posting.

This is from...somewhere. It's old and I don't know if it's completely accurate. I'm sure someone else here can tell just by glancing and I'm too lazy to read through it all.

Is WS damage accounted for in that spreadsheet? Apoc's new base damage?

EDIT: nvm, not your work. I'm willing to bet Apoc is severely underrated by that spreadsheet, even pre-update. It should be fairly close to MKris by some rough math.

iirc, that's from when total 80% haste cap first came out.

I see. Fairly old then.

KC hit/round value looks a little high to my eyes, but I'm not sure that was ever parsed with any seriousness so I can't really bring any concrete data to the table there.

Something I probably should have asked before now.

How does SE fare against the new content? If the new NMs and WoE mobs build resistance it's a moot point and Apoc wins by default.

Idk why I thought the cap was 85% o.O

my ls had a novel idea when we did Nyzul and i m kinda wondering if it will work in other situations. i was drk 75/sam full db merits etc. what we did was used SE without a zerg haste deal. basically i would WS with body boost the sam would sekka ws and pass me tp i'd get cure bomb close light or drk tp wing cure ws. i would do about 2k a WS and i know i can and have hit harder on gods or HNM. what im saying is can you spam enough TP to equal a zerg or serpass it?

Well none of them account for WS damage. They also dont account for when blood weapon wears off. The second one being a massive drain on MKris damage even with cure bombs.

Raen sent me a PM and I just now got it almost 9 days later. Hence the bump on this thread. He seems to think it would fall below fort axe but that's assuming you use identical gearsets. Obviously you're going to use Brutal earring with apoc, you're going to use a lot more HP gear(cause you have max haste a lot easier), and you can WS which stacks on top of soul eater so you dont lose HP.

No. You'd need somebody passing you TP every 2 seconds to even have a chance, and given that 1) you can only do that for so long 2) the potential for human error is massive under such circumstances and 3) it's damage they're not doing as a result, a standard zerg strat will be far more efficient and also more damaging as time goes on. It's also far more durable since your damage is ironically less concentrated.