Swordstrap Or Polegrip For GS?

For greatswords under 500 delay such as
Albion(466 delay) and Caladbolg(430 delay)
which grip would benefit more. swordstrap or polegrip?
Under the scenario of DRK/SAM

Sword Strap drops Caladbolg to a 10-hit to 100%, no change to Albion that maintains a 8 hit regardless.

Without any idea as to what sTP gear you have, there's not much else that can be said.

Post gearsets or sTP totz.

Well absent my handy ffxicalc application, I'd say the short answer is "If Sword Strap tacks on another hit to your WS build then stick with Pole Grip"

However another alternative you could look into is the Rose strap from Campaign if and only if it knocks off a swing to your WS build.

Is this a serious question?
People actually consider the swordstrap...?

Maybe I've been doing this wrong all along.

/facepalm.

-Delay will always beat double attack unless it makes your X hit build larger. I explained to you the returns of haste vs double attack many times now. I am disappointed sir.

depends on what ur working with and how/if it will effect ur tp

Oh you did ?
Sorry I must have missed that one.
-delay is knida ***all around really lol.

But likely we havn't seen his TP build, so as for right now, I'm saying swordstrap is suckyyyy.

Someone made a forum about you just now Excelior,
but it got deleted ;-;

I would say polegrip, in haste/march situations, swordstrap will take off .1 seconds depending on gear haste...

Depends on your xhit at the time. If say.. you're 4STP from a 6hit then Rose Strap is the best, if you're 5STP over 6hit then Sword Strap is best, if you're in the middle of nowhere then Pole Grip is the best.

Just my opinion!

You realize -delay is haste right? it affects your TP return but if it doesnt affect your X hit build then it is pretty much just haste. You are arguing that 3% haste is less than 2% double attack. :

Adding 3% haste at 60% haste is about 7-9% more damage. 3% haste at zero haste is +3% damage.

Assuming you have Brutal earring adding pole grip is:
105 attacks per 100 attack with brutal
107 attacks per 100 attacks with brutal + pole grip

105/107=.981 100%-98.1%= +1.9 % damage by adding pole grip

Your argument is that +1.9% is > +3-9% which is false.

Dude you explained to me that the -delay effects your xhit build.
So if it dosnt effect tp return for the 6hit build I am currently maintaining.
Then I should be using swordstrap for according to you "3% haste" ? And if so...
Why isn't everyone doing this?

Most people can't take the hit to STP probably. Most SAM will use a Rose Strap to maintain a 5~6hit build. DRK's I can't talk about directly, but it's essentially the same principle.

Can't afford the -TP/hit, then you shouldn't use it.

A more direct answer would be that most people are HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE alzeroth. They base their gear on what other people are wearing which is stupid. That's why you see people full timing ace's helms and Askar heads. Numbers dont lie. Any drk with a 528 scythe and rajas ring using a pole grip is an idiot. No exceptions, look how many there are though.

Sword Strap is a static 3.09% increase in DoT/WS frequency (assuming no change in xhit, gear or otherwise). Pole Grip is a 1.9% increase in DoT/WS frequency and a x% increase to WS damage. This is harder to model but CDF on BG says you can model it by essentially adding 0.02 fTP per point of Double Attack added.

Basically, Sword is best as long as your WS frequency is increased without any kind of sacrifice. Rose is best if you use it to make your 6hit. Else Pole.

The reason you don't see many people using Sword is because you can mess it up whereas Pole is pretty foolproof, assuming you don't need the Rose and if they don't know the sTP calculations themselves, they'd rather take the safe road.

I am actually learning a lot here, so would a 504 Delay be gimped by a Sword Strap?

As /SAM, with a total of STP+12 otherwise, you'd safely be able to use Sword Strap as part of your TP phase. I can't say anything on how easy that is to hit for a DRK because I have no idea off the top of my head of STP gear attainable for a DRK.

Rajas, Ecphoria and Brutal will get you a 6-hit build without Sword Strap, but with it you'll need a furthur +5 STP, so a Goading Belt should make a valid 6-hit with a Sword Strap (if you can work out how to get one XD)

hmm, what grip should I be using /nin then? I have Rajas and Brutal.

If you're /SAM and have Rajas/Brutal you need 6STP for 6hit with a 504 delay. Main piece that comes to mind without forking out on White Tathlum, Chiv Chain, Ecp Ring, this and that is Aurum Body as that at least has some form of accuracy. If you go down the other route you'd be less off in the long run.

I'd say Pole Grip.

Sword Grip will take you from 7-hit build to 8-hit.
Rose Strap won't take you from 7-hit to 6-hit.

Pole
Pole Grip as Sword Strap takes you to 8hit from 7 and you'd need 16STP to make 6hit.

Ty for the info. everyone. rate ups all around.

Basic rules for common 2handed weapons and assuming you are using a standard /sam, Brutal, Rajas only:

Scythe:
528: Sword
513: Sword or Pole*
501: Pole or Rose*

* = this will give you a "true" 6hit. The first option is partial.

Greatsword:
501: Rose
489: Sword*
480: Sword
444: Sword*

* = you are probably better off using Rose + some extra Store TP gear though, since it's very close to breaking next xhit tier.

Great Axe:
504: Pole, Rose if you want a true6hit (probably best just to TP in an Attila's Earring or something though if you don't need accuracy - can WS in whatever then)

Great Katana:
Very situational based on the rest of your gear. These builds are well-known anyway.

Polearm:
492: Rose if not using sTP body, otherwise Pole
396: Rose

There are probably others which I haven't covered but these are the common ones.

Warning: Kinda long grip/StoreTP guide for Scythes and Greatswords. Read it if you're interested etc.

First of all, Sword strap is -3% delay reduction but it also reduces your TP gain per hit, unlike haste..which reduces your delay but does not reduce your original TP per hit.

To put it simply: Sword strap is better if it does not break your X-hit build. If using sword strap breaks your X-hit build, then use pole grip; however, if the StoreTP from Rose strap allows you to/or you need it to reach a lower X-hit build, then Rose strap would be better.

I agree with what Raenryong said in general, but I'm just going to expand a little on that:

(I'll just cover Scythe and GS, since this is a DRK thread)

(possible new relevant StoreTP gear from future updates not taken into account here since we don't know what new gear we'll have available for lv80-99 yet)

Also, when we say...for example: "6hit/5hit rebuild" it basically means that, in this case, going from 0% TP it takes you 6hits to get to 100% TP, but after a Weaponskill (provided that you do not miss the WS)it will take you only 5hits to get back to 100% TP. (The "rebuild portion" is due to the TP returns on WS.)

For those where I listed more than one grip, the one listed first (from left to right) will be the one that may be most beneficial under most or certain conditions. Then the reasons why or when you could use each one etc.

Also, the information below is mostly intended for /sam.(samurai as support job)
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Scythe:

528 delay = Sword strap or Rose strap.

Reason:

You only need at least +16 StoreTP for TP and for WS, for a "true 6hit build/5hit rebuild." Using Sword strap would put you at a 512 delay and you would need at least +21 StoreTP for TP and WS, for a true 6hit/5hit rebuild, which is just the standard /sam,rajas,and brutal.

The use of Rose strap with a 528 delay scythe will come in play if you're going for a 5hit build (5hit/4hit rebuild).

You need +39 StoreTP for TP and for WS, for a true 5hit build. ("5hit/4hit rebuild")

Or you could do a "pseudo 5hit build."

36StoreTP for a "6hit/4hit rebuild" (not a true 5hit build), as long as you land at least 3hits on Guillotine WS. (The first hit, and 2 extra hits)

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513 delay = Pole grip.

Reason:

You need at least +21 StoreTP for TP and for WS, for a true 6hit/5hit rebuild. If you were to use sword strap here, it would put you at 497 delay...which requires you to have +24 StoreTP for TP and WS, but you cannot use rose strap if you're already using sword strap;however, you could use a StoreTP body or eat storeTP food...but I do not recommend those options in general because STP bodies usually have little to no accuracy compared to other standard bodies, and there's usually better food. Therefore I would stick to Pole grip for 513 delay.

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501 delay = Pole grip, or Rose strap.

Reason:

You need at least +23 storeTP for TP and +22 StoreTP for WS, for a true 6hit/5hit rebuild. Sword strap would put you down to 485 delay and break your X-hit build. Pole grip can be used because with the Standard /sam, brutal, and rajas...you will have +21STP, then as long as you land at least 3hits with Guillotine, you will have a 7hit/5hit rebuild. Alternatively, you can equip the Rose strap if you want the "true 6hit/5hit rebuild."

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Greatsword:

501 delay = Rose strap, or Pole grip.

Reason:

You need at least +23STP for TP and +22STP for WS, for a true 6hit/5hit rebuild. Rose strap would be better in my opinion, since that way you don't sacrifice anything in other slots; however, you can use Pole grip IF you don't have rose strap, and then you can use /sam, rajas, brutal, and then you need 2 more STP for TP (Options could be: either white tathlum, or Chivalrous chain + ecphoria ring, or attila's earring + ecphoria ring), and then you needed +22 STP for WS, so the standard /sam, rajas, brutal, and then use attila's earring for WS too.

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494 delay = Rose strap.

Reason:

You need at least +25STP for TP and for WS, for a true 6hit/5hit rebuild. The way to do this one would just be: /sam, rajas, brutal, and rose strap.. which = exactly +25STP. Rose strap is the clear winner for a 494 delay GS.

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489 delay = Rose strap, or Sword strap.

Reason:

You need at least +27STP for TP and +25STP for WS, for a true 6hit/5hit rebuild. You can do it with: /sam, rajas, brutal, rose strap, and need 2 more StoreTP for TP (Options could be: either white tathlum, or Chivalrous chain + ecphoria ring, or attila's earring + ecphoria ring), and then you needed +25 STP for WS... which would just be /sam, rajas, brutal, and rose strap. Furthermore, another new possible way would be with the new Goading belt.(has StoreTP+5, and haste+5%) You could do: /sam, rajas, brutal, rose strap, and Goading belt which = +30STP, and for WS still just do /sam, rajas, brutal, rose strap. If you do not have the gear necessary to 6hit this weapon, or sacrifice would be too much in accuracy/haste etc with the gear that you do have to make it... then you could use Sword strap and have a 7hit build with 474 delay. (would need +13STP to have a 7hit with 474 delay)

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480 delay = Rose strap, or Sword strap.

Reason:

You Need +30 StoreTP for TP and +20 StoreTP for WS, for a true 6hit/5hit rebuild. The way to to this one would be: /sam, rajas, brutal, rose strap, and the new Goading belt(has StoreTP+5, and haste+5%)for +30STP for TP, and then WS you would have: /sam, rajas, brutal, and rose strap (needed only +20STP for WS, but have to WS in rose strap because you lose TP if you change grips). If you can't get the StoreTP necessary to 6hit a weapon with 480 delay, with little to no sacrifice (namely with the gear mentioned above which included the new Goading belt), then you could wear sword strap for a 7hit build with 465 delay. (would need +18STP to keep a 7hit with 465 delay)

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466 delay = Pole grip, or Sword Strap

Reason:

You need at least +17 StoreTP for TP and for WS, for a true 7hit/6hit rebuild. If you use Sword strap... it would put you at a 452 delay, but then you would need +24StoreTP to have a 7hit build, otherwise, you would be stuck at an 8hit build. Nevertheless, You could possibly do: Sword strap, /sam, rajas, brutal, and the new Goading belt (has storeTP+5, and haste+5%)... for +26StoreTP with a 452 delay while using sword Strap; however, the comparison here would be that if you have velocious/speed belt...it is basically 2% double attack and 1% haste Vs. -3% delay reduction.(2% double attack from Pole grip, and Velocious/speed belt has haste+6% which is one more haste than Goading Belt; the other setup was sword strap's delay reduction -3% and Goading Belt's StoreTP+5, and Haste+5%).

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444 delay = Rose strap, or Sword strap.

Reason:

You need at least +27STP for TP and +26STP for WS, for a true 7hit/6hit rebuild. You can do it with: /sam, rajas, brutal, rose strap, and need 2 more StoreTP for TP (Options could be: either white tathlum, or Chivalrous chain + ecphoria ring, or attila's earring + ecphoria ring),
and then you needed +26 STP for WS, so you would do: /sam, rajas, brutal, rose strap, and then use attila's earring for WS too. Furthermore, another new possible way would be with the new Goading belt.(has StoreTP+5, and haste+5%) You could do: /sam, rajas, brutal, rose strap, and Goading belt which = +30STP, and for WS just do /sam, rajas, brutal, and rose strap. If you do not have the gear necessary to 7hit this weapon, or sacrifice would be too much in accuracy/haste etc with the gear that you do have to make it... then you could use Sword strap and have an 8hit build with 430 delay. (would need +14STP to keep an 8hit with 430 delay)

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(I'm putting these next two together because they both give the same base TP per hit)

430 delay and 431 Delay = Rose Strap, or Sword strap.

Reason:

You need at least 31 STP for TP and 25 STP for WS, for a true 7hit build/6hit rebuild. You could do it with: /sam, rajas, brutal, rose strap, the new Goading Belt(StoreTP+5, and haste+5%), and then one more StoreTP from somewhere (Attila's earring, ecphoria ring, chivalrous chain, or white tathlum), and then you needed +25 storeTP for WS...which would just be: /sam, rajas, brutal, and rose strap. In the case of Ragnarok, the relic GS, which is the 431 delay...you could probably get away with using Aurum cuirass on some mobs(since relic GS has accuracy+20, and now with Magian Trials it actually can have accuracy+25) if you do not have the new Goading Belt. Finally, If you do not have the gear necessary to 7hit this weapon, or sacrifice would be too much in accuracy/haste etc with the gear that you do have to make it... then you could use Sword strap and have an 8hit build with 417 delay if using the weapon with a base delay of 430, or use sword strap and have an 8hit build with 418 delay if using the weapon with 431 delay. (would need +17STP to keep a 8hit with 417 delay or with 418 delay)

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This turned out longer than I expected... but there was no way for me to make this shorter while still giving an explanation or reason to "why" you would use each grip, and "how" you can get the StoreTP needed for certain X-hit builds etc.

A lot of people probably already know this stuff, but hopefully this will help those who didn't know or maybe were just too lazy to calculate it themselves.

If you can maintain your X-hit Sword Strap is the best Grip in the game, if you are arguing that you need to relearn to DD period.

3% Haste >>> 2% DA in any situation

Haste has increasing returns Double Attack doesnt.

Sword Strap is calculated separately from Haste.

weapon delay * (1 - delay%) * (1 - haste) = final delay

So it's a constant 3.09% increase.

For GS I'd use Sword Strap if possible (x-hit), as DA on WS will be significantly weaker than the first hit due to lower fTP, no ratio modifier, and no acc bonus.

Just to make it clear, -delay is not haste. -3% delay wont be stacked with let's say 50% haste for a 53% total decrease. -delay is actually factored before haste is applied. Let's take a 500 delay weapon: -3% would make it a a 485 delay (0.97 x 500) and then 50% haste would make it a 242delay weapon( 0.5 x 485). Instead of a 53% decrease in delay we get a (1 - 0.97x0.5) = 0.515, or 51.5% decrease.

If -delay were indeed satackable with haste, why wear anything but sword strap?

Still -delay has the same increasing returns haste has. If the day comes where SE adds more -delay for 2handed weapon, sword strap will get even better. But not every 2handed weapon would enjoy this, because most would get less tp over time (so there are other variables to check if this day comes).

-delay% reduces your weapon's base TP per hit unlike haste which reduces your weapon delay but keeps your base TP per hit that you had before adding haste, AND -delay IS calculated first, then haste. This is correct. I don't think I said anywhere that you would stack them etc. though I guess you're referring to Gradd's statement above.

And yes, using your own example of a 500 delay: if you do sword strap first, which you should, you will have a 485 delay and then with 50% haste...you will have a 242 delay. If you were to stack the -3% weapon delay with the 50% haste as if it were haste+53% on a 500 delay weapon, you will have a final delay of 235.

242 != 235. And again, yes Sword strap is calculated first and it's not the same as haste. Laphine is correct.


You would wear pole grip if Sword strap breaks your X-hit build, and rose strap if you need it for your X-hit build, but I guess if you mean stack-able with haste AND that it won't affect your TP per hit then I see your point. Nevertheless, -delay IS calculated first... that is right.

thanks for the delay/grip breakdown giazz ^^

np.

I also just edited the grip/storeTP guide to add in the grip and StoreTP needed for a 6hit with a 494 delay GS. (I had forgotten to add that one.)