Espafut Vs Caladbolg

Okay...which one lol...
Espafut: DMG 98 Delay 466
or
Caladbolg: DMG 98 Delay 430...

Well you cannot get a 6 hit with either of those weapons, but you can get a 7 hit build with them. (the 7hit with 430 delay is roughly about the same in terms of time to 100% TP as a 6hit with 501 delay, fractions of sections difference depending on haste values etc.)

For Caladbolg's 7hit with 430 delay you would need: +31 StoreTP for TP, and +25 StoreTP for WS.

For the +31STP for TP, you would need: /sam, rajas ring, brutal earring, rose strap, the new Goading Belt(haste+5, storeTP+5)and then one more StoreTP from somewhere...maybe White tathlum, or ecphoria ring, or chivalrous chain, or attila's earring(maybe if you can augment it with something nice), or some new STP gear... which would = 31 StoreTP for TP.

And for the +25 STP for WS, it would just be: /sam, rajas, brutal, and rose strap.

So yeah... looks kinda hard to make that 7hit with Caladbolg atm(at least until you can acquire the gear I listed above for it), but if you can make it without little to no sacrifice later on... then it will be better because it is the fastest 7hit between those 2 weapons, due to the lower delay.

If you can't make that, then just go with a 466 delay 7hit with Espafut.

I didn't take the time to calculate the least amount of StoreTP needed for a 7hit with 466 delay but I did find that you can 7hit it with as little as 18 StoreTP for TP and 18 StoreTP for WS. Typical TP sets have at least +21 StoreTP so you have more than enough to 7hit a 466 delay weapon.

The other new GS that you could actually 6 hit is the following: (And I'm just going to quote myself from my other post on the other drk thread titled "New Drk gear" )


Additionally, it can also be noted that the "Salamand Sword" which is the OAT GS, (has dmg: 71, 480, and occasionally attack twice when fully upgraded atm) can also use the gear I listed for the Ferus Algol to get a 6 hit build, since both weapons have a 480 delay.

So yeah... those should be your options for GS atm.

i think i'ma go with Caladbolg cuz it is a empyrean weapon. and according to the abyssea website
"future version updates will allow players to upgrade empyrean weapons through trial of the magians and other systems"
so might get nifty stats on it

Well if it's getting new stats then hopefully it gets some delay+ too... like have a final delay of 480-495 so that it's much easier to actually "6-hit." (with 495 delay you would just need +25 storeTP for a 6hit build, which is just /sam, rajas, brutal, and rose strap)

An added TP bonus effect will be awesome in one of these new GSs too...

It's still very early to tell, lots of new stuff coming out etc.

We'll see...

I actually do not agree with you in terms of inceasing the delay of Caladbolg at all, that would be a very big error on SE part.

Ragnarok for Example is a 431 delay GS properly built into a 7-hit build it will build TP only .3 seconds slower than Naglering with Stronger DPS.

With 2x March and haste to 100% TP~

430 Delay Caladbolg 7-hit. 23.1 Seconds DPS: 13.67 98 DMG

444 Delay Typical GS 7-Hit. 23.8 Seconds

466 Delay Espafut GS 7-Hit. 25.2 Seconds DPS: 12.62 98 DMG

480 Delay Ferus Algol 6-hit. 22.2 Seconds DPS: 11.75 94 DMG

501 Delay Naglering 6-Hit. 22.8 Seconds DPS: 10.18 85 DMG

Caladbolg is 430 Delay... 1 Delay less than Ragnarok. With the new Haste 5% Store TP +5 Belt maintaining that X-hit would make Caladbolg a monsterous GS.

Brutal/Rajas/Rose Strap/Goading Belt are all that you need to maintain the proper 7-hit build for this weapon.

We just have to hope that getting the belt isnt that hard to attain~ It definatley opens up better options for Rag Drks.

Increasing its delay would just hurt the DPS of the weapon and we still have no idea what else SE is planning to do it it aswell~

Well you need 31 StoreTP for TP, and 25 storeTP for WS actually. And it is very dependent on this new Goading Belt, and 1 more StoreTP, unless you want to WS in +30STP...while the Goading belt looks very good, just like you said...we don't know how hard it will be to get it etc.

As I stated in my first post on this thread:


I suppose I'll show the math:

5.0 + [(Delay - 180) * 6.5 / 270]

5.0 + [(430 - 180) * 6.5 / 270) = 11.0 TP per hit for a 430 delay GS.

11.0 * .31 = 3.41 + 11.0 = 14.4 TP * 6 = 86.4 TP (from 6 melee hits)

11.0 * .25 = 2.75 + 11.0 = 13.7 TP (from WS)

13.7 TP + 86.4 TP = 100.1 TP

Thus you need at least: 31 STP for TP and 25 STP for WS for a "true 7hit build/6hit rebuild" with 430 delay.

Now, I do agree with you in that a proper 7hit with 430 delay would be the best build for Caladbolg, and I also stated previously that a 7hit with 430 delay would get to 100% TP about same time as a 6hit with 501 delay. (though the 7hit will also get 1 extra melee hit and higher DPS too ,of course, while still getting to 100% at about same time, thus making the 430 delay 7hit better.)

Quick examples to further show this:

(just to compare other 7hit GS builds)

444 delay: with 18% haste = 364.08 delay * 7 / 60 = 42.4 sec to 100% TP.

501 delay: with 18% haste = 410.8 delay * 6 / 60 = 41.08 sec to 100% TP.

Now to get back on Topic with the 430 delay with Caladbolg:

430 delay: with 18% haste = 352.6 delay * 7 / 60 = 41.1 sec to 100% TP

And for 501 delay it was: 41.08 sec to 100% TP as shown above.

A 6 hit with 501 delay is 1.3 seconds faster than a 7hit with 444 delay; however, a 6 hit with 501 delay is only 0.02 seconds faster than a 7hit with 430 delay. And again, the 7hit is also doing the extra melee hit, and has a lot more DPS, just like Gradd showed.

DPS:

For reference~

430 delay GS (Caladbolg): 98dmg * 60 / 430 = 13.67 DPS

501 delay GS (Naglering): 85 * 60 / 501 = 10.18 DPS

There are other GSs too, but you guys get the idea...

The reasons why I mentioned that hopefully it gets some delay of 480-495 is clearly as I stated before: because it would allow an "easier" 6hit and with no sacrifice, BUT also because seeing how SE stated that future updates will allow players to upgrade empyrean weapons through trial of the magians and other systems. And if you look at other Magian GSs that started off with a small delay..such as: Salamand Sword, the OAT GS, with a base delay of 456 but then the trial that gives it OAT and dmg+, also gives it delay +24. Putting the Magian OAT GS at 480 delay.

If on future trials for the magian/empyrean GS, SE plans to give it more dmg/stats, and also some delay+... I really hope it is not delay+24... you see where I'm going with this? with a 430 delay and delay +24 from possible future stats, it would put Caladbolg at a 454 delay... which is too low for a 6hit. You could get a 7hit with 454 delay but it would not be as good as a 7hit with 444 delay, and definitely not as good as a proper 7hit with 430 delay.

Basically, I just noted that a 98dmg GS(possibly even more dmg with upgrades later on?)with a 6hit/5hit rebuild with 480-495 delay would be very good, (they could possibly give attack+ and acc+ like how naglering is high delay with extra attack and accuracy etc.), and then that it would be much easier for everyone to 6hit this GS and with no sacrifice with a 480-495 delay.

If SE must increase its delay, then hopefully it would be to something between 480-495 delay, because I would prefer that over a 454 or 466 delay =/

If future upgrades to Caladbolg don't mess with the delay, and it stays at 430 delay... then it will be great if and only if we can get the gear necessary for the +31 STP for TP and +25 STP for WS for the 7hit with 430 delay, otherwise, you will be stuck with an 8hit build...which should be inferior to other options.

That was my reasoning, which probably nobody really cares. Still, just saying.

I also agree with Gradd in that the Goading Belt will definitely open better options for Ragnarok as well. It will allow it to have a 7hit/6hit rebuild with 431 delay without the need of Aurum body.

A lot of new stuff coming out etc.

We'll see what happens...

Who is this Espafut? I'll kick his *** any day of the week... t(-_-t)

...oh wait... yeah.

I really don't feel like leveling PLD or DRK >_>

Be careful with these 6 hit builds guys. Gear like goading belt is crap in disguise. Let me show you:

Going from 8 to 7 hit is a 12.5% damage increase to weaponskills only. Now lets look at some other builds:

Sword strap +3%haste
Vbelt + 6% Haste
Homamx3 +9%
Turban +5%
Hasso+10%
Haste+15%
Songs+20%
Total 68% haste

430-69%= 137.6/60= 2.29 seconds per swing

7Hit build:

Goading belt 5% haste
Homamx3 9%haste
turban +5%
Hasso +10%
Haste+ 15%
Songs+20%
Total: 64%

430-64= 154.8/60= 2.58 seconds per swing

Melee DPS difference: 2.29/2.58= 11.3% more damage with 8 hit.

Lets look at TPing speed now

7 hits x 2.58 seconds = 18.06 seconds per WS
8 hits x 2.29 seconds = 18.32 seconds per ws

Basically my point is, your 7 hit build just got destroyed by an easier to make -delay/haste build. Just because you can make X hit builds doesn't make them good.

Excelior so your pretty much saying SAM shouldnt use Usu feet for their 6-hit builds and use fuma because that is higher haste.

Your math has to be wrong plugging in the numbers with FFXICalc show completley different speed than what you have.

With 2x March Haste Hasso
7-hit 18.9 Seconds Goading Belt

8-Hit 20.8 Seconds VBelt/Sword Strap

The 7-hit Wins.

Goading Belt is pure win for a GS with 430 Delay.

Alright I edited and error in my haste setup. I had 1% too much haste in the 8 hit build. As you can see however the only difference is a 3rd of a second slower on the TP gain with 8 hit and still an 11.5% increase in melee damage. Obviously the 8 hit still wins.

Any other differences in the math may be because of rounded haste values not being in 1024ths form. I'm not sure what values ffxicalc use. Anyways, 8 hit > 7 hit based on those builds.

Also, unless your sam needs the 7 store tp for the 6 hit you shouldn't be using usu feet. I'm sure many people are like OMGSALVAGE GEAR. No, its trash unless it lets you 6 hit or you're badly hurting for accuracy.

the relic great sword also has a low delay so i doubt they will give this weapon a high delay.

GKT SAM is funky for a couple of reasons. On the one hand, Pole Grip is pretty weak on WS; on the other, you go /DRG and thus may not need the extra haste from Fuma if you've got some HQ gear to work with (VBelt and/or Dusk+1; there's also Ace's/Askar to trade with though). In a Fuma/Pole v Usu/Sword comparison ignoring the /DRG haste aspect, Pole is ~2.3% to total DPS and 1% haste is anywhere from 1.03% (including the 2% common to both pieces) to nearly 5% to total DPS. This is ignoring Meditated WS, which actually strengthen the Fuma/Pole pairing. By comparison, -3% delay is a straight 3.09% increase. I shouldn't have to point out how little 7 attack during TP means to SAM. If the acc matters then it's potentially a whole other story, but with capped acc and other x-hits available that don't sacrifice haste Fuma/Pole is a clear winner.

Turning back to DRK for a moment:
So we have a 10% increase in WS frequency before considering Meditate or DA, both of which have a greater impact on the 8-hit build. However, your 8-hit swings 12.7% slower. After a very rough accounting for Meditate and DA, the 7-hit wins if your TP:WS split is above ~40:60. Note that I did not account for any other stats sacrificed to facilitate the 7-hit.

I dont see how he is getting those numbers for 7 and 8 hit.
Based on the math I did above there is no difference in WS speed really and 11.5% faster attack speed on the 8 hit. Rechecked math multiple times unless you are doing something I'm not.

Mostly I'm assuming his numbers are right :P FFXICalc uses /1024 values, so if that's what he's using his numbers should be correct. If your numbers are correct, 8-hit wins even more easily. Either way, it was more using the unfavorable numbers to prove a point than anything else. If his are correct then so be it, if yours are right then it's even more in your favor.

Also, unaggressive playstyle (not always WSing at 100 TP for instance) hurts the 7-hit more than the 8-hit. Basically, all real-world factors favor the DoT-based build in this case.

Ahh ok I assumed as much regarding the 1024th values. Never used the program myself but I should probably look into it.

Here we go...

I think that what you managed to demonstrate, Excelior, is that you can have an 8hit build with 412 delay with sword strap, and Velocious/speed belt, thus a lower delay versus the other 7hit that can't use sword strap and can't use velocious/speed belt because it needs rose strap and goading belt for its 7hit etc.

Particularly, you have two 98 dmg GSs: one with a 412 delay but stuck with an 8hit build, and then another with 430 delay but with a 7hit build.

Let's not mention that most people only have swift belt and without taking into account the StoreTP on Goading belt, Goading belt's haste+5% would still be an improvement over swift belt's haste+4%(which would alter our calculations a little...to favor the 430 delay 7hit even more than the 412 delay 8hit etc.), BUT...we will go with the velocious/speed belt because you're right in that it would be the best belt for drk, purely in terms of haste.

Having a lower delay with the 8hit build,due to being able to use sword strap and Velocious/speed belt did manage to reduce the WS frequency difference from going from an 8hit 430 delay GS to a 7hit 430 delay GS...because now you are going from an 8hit build 412 delay GS to a 7hit build 430 delay GS;however, it is not reduced enough to make the 8hit build better, much less to make it faster to 100%.

In other words the 7hit build still has a significant WS frequency advantage, which is why it is better... because it allows you to WS more over time.

If you didn't do WSs and just looked at melee hit dmg, it is obvious that the 8hit build is going to be better than the 7hit build "IF you are only looking at melee hit damage intervals, because well..you are doing 1 more melee hit..." Fact is that the whole point of X-hit builds is to Weaponskill more often, thus doing more WSs over time (Specially as a 2handed DD/sam), then as a result: do more damage through more WSs.

Of course, this all depends on your TP:WS split, but if playing aggressively and specially as a DD/sam etc. your TP:WS split should be more towards WS damage.

Lets show more maths: (feel free to correct if I made a mistake there, I'm only human...but it should be right.)

Going from a 430 delay 8hit build to a 430 delay 7hit would have been an ~14.28% increase in WS frequency.

430 * 8 = 3440
430 * 7 = 3010
3440/3010 = ~14.28% more WS frequency with the 7hit build.

The above is also only if you actually took 7 hits to get 100% TP with the 7hit build, and 8hits to get to 100% TP with the 8hit build "every time."

Truth is: If you have enough StoreTP... The 8hit build is, in reality, an "8hit build/7hit rebuild" and that the 7hit build is a "7hit build/6hit rebuild."

What does the above mean? Well, it means that most of the time with the 8hit build, you will only take 7hits to get back to 100% TP, and that with the 7hit build you will only take 6hits to get back to 100% TP. With stuff like meditate, it is unlikely that you will have to get to 100% TP in 8hits with the 8hit build or that you will have to get to 100% TP in 7hits with the 7hit build at the start of a fight (I'm not taking into account Feather Tickle from pink colibri because those aren't the only mobs in the game). The only exception to this would be if you miss your WS(and meditate is not available), which can happen...though GS 1-hit WSs have an accuracy bonus just like y/g/k for GK sam.

Anyway... let's do WS frequency for the "6hit rebuild" portion of the 7hit setup, and "7hit rebuild" portion of the 8hit setup:

430 * 7 = 3010
430 * 6 = 2580
3010/2580 = ~16.66% more WS frequency with the 6hit rebuild.(which is the 7hit build because the Weaponskill counts as a hit)

Now, we said that, in this comparison, the 8hit build could have -3% delay with sword strap, and 1 more haste if you have velocious/speed belt...so in our actual comparison, the 8hit build is 412 delay, therefore:

412 * 8 = 3296
430 * 7 = 3010
3296/3010 = ~9.5% more WS frequency with the 7hit build.

Next... let's do WS frequency for the "6hit rebuild" portion of the 7hit setup with 430 delay, and "7hit rebuild" portion of the 8hit setup with 412 delay:

412 * 7 = 2884
430 * 6 = 2580
2884/2580 = ~11.78% more WS frequency with the 6hit rebuild.(which is the 7hit build because the Weaponskill counts as a hit)

Considering that most of a GS drk/sam's damage will be coming from Weaponskills(the TP:WS split is higher towards WS), I would take the higher WS frequency from the "7hit build/6hit rebuild" for more WSs, thus more damage over time.

-------------------------------------------------

Edit:

Also, to avoid possible rounding/mistake errors etc. and to further demonstrate a point.

I went ahead and used FFXICalc too which does use /1024 values etc. and Gradd is correct. According to FFXICalc, results would be these:

With 2x March, Haste, Hasso, and 19% gear haste(this includes Goading belt):

7-hit = 18.9 Seconds to 100% TP from 0% TP.

With 2x March, Haste, Hasso, 20% gear haste(this includes Velocious/speed belt), and sword strap:

8-Hit = 20.8 Seconds to 100% TP from 0% TP.

20.8/18.9 = ~10% more WS frequency with the 7hit setup, just as Nightfyre stated.

Now, again.. that's only if you take 7hits to get back to 100% TP each time with the 7hit build, and 8hits each time with the 8hit build. As stated, previously...these are actually "7hit/6hit rebuilds" and "8hit/7hit rebuilds" respectively, because the WS is technically a hit and then you need only 7hits to get back to 100% TP with the 8hit build, and you need only 6hits to get back to 100% TP with the 7hit build.

Then, lets do the WS frequency for the "6hit rebuild", and for the "7hit rebuild" portions.

With 2x March, Haste, Hasso, and 19% gear haste(this includes Goading belt):

6-hit rebuild = 16.2 Seconds to 100% TP after a WS.

With 2x March, Haste, Hasso, 20% gear haste(this includes Velocious/speed belt), and sword strap:

7-Hit rebuild = 18.2 Seconds to 100% TP after a WS.

18.2/16.2 = ~12.34% more WS frequency with the 6hit rebuild. (you only need 6hits to get back to 100% TP after a WS with the 7hit setup.)

Either way,it looks like the "7hit build/6hit rebuild" is definitely faster than the "8hit build/7hit rebuild."

I agree with Gradd and Nightfyre on this one.

DRK's TP:WS split isn't nearly on the order of a SAM's, especially when dealing with 7+ hit builds. Hence my posts above.

I just edited my previous post with some FFXIcalc numbers.

As for DRK's TP:WS split not being nearly on the order of a SAM's. In general, I do agree with you on that one; however, I still believe that a GS DRK/SAM's TP:WS split is more towards WS(may not be as much as sam normally, but still more towards WS...playing aggressively, riding meditate timer, having your X-hit build, appropriate haste, and using/timing Absorb-TP when appropriate etc.). Depends on situations too I suppose. If I'm fighting in dynamis where people are feeding mobs lots of TP, or fighting elementals, I can spam absorb-TP for awesome results..but I suppose that is another story...

Either way, difference may not be huge.. but I think the WS frequency should be better with the 7hit/6hit rebuild with 430 delay setup.

Edit:

Another thing: Both GSs having 98 damage...

the 7hit/6hit rebuild with 430 delay has a DPS of: 13.67

Then, the 8hit/7hit rebuild with 412 delay(due to using V/speed belt, and sword strap) has a DPS of: 14.27

Looking purely at DPS is not good because it may not take into account accuracy, attack or other stats in the different weapons(just how Naglering is low DPS but it's great because it has attack+20, accuracy+4, and the high delay of 501 specially allows you to 6hit it etc.), but in this case in particular, it may not take into account differences in WS frequency.

The 412 delay "8hit/7hit rebuild" has ~4.4% more melee Damage per second... BUT the 430 delay "7hit/6hit rebuild" has roughly ~12% more WS frequency. So that would be the comparison etc.

Well you seem to have proven your point. I haven't taken too close of a look at the WS/melee split of the parse for drk until I actually got my apoc so I'm not sure what the split is for GS drk, but clearly the 7 hit is going to beat it. I did not think about counting the varying speed due to WS return tp either.

A GS drk/sam riding meditate timer, having appropriate X-hit build, doing WSs at 100% as much as possible, appropriate haste and TPgear, solid GS ws gear set, and good use/timing of Absorb-TP when appropriate... can usually get a realistic ~40:60 split. (tp:ws split)

Not comparing Scythe and GSs here as this isn't a "scythe thread" or a "Scythe Vs Greatsword thread", and those weapons have different uses etc... but either way, the 98dmg GS with a "7hit/6hit rebuild" with 430 delay would definitely be a nice GS, specially compared to the other available options that we have for GS at the moment.

There's still 19 more level to go from 80-99. I think it is obvious that our weapons will have more base damage if the ongoing pattern continues... but I wonder what kind of other stats some of these new weapons will get.

I still think that a "TP bonus" effect on the Caladbolg GS would be very nice... since going from 100% TP to 200% TP is a 20% increase to Spinning slash damage (going from 2.5 ftp to 3.0 ftp). Further, Some accuracy+ like Naglering has would be nice to compensate a little the fact that GS is A- skill. Just my opinion though, we'll see what SE actually decides to do with these weapons later on...

on 50 freaking carabosse gems now -.- gdi. this is ganna be rough getting people to help me on this one D: