T4 Reisenjima Strategy.

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T4 Reisenjima Strategy.
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 Fenrir.Pertalee
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By Fenrir.Pertalee 2017-11-21 14:14:51
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This is the first I have heard of an adds tank tbh. (Also I sent you a PM)
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 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-11-21 14:16:15
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Cerberus.Kylos said: »
This makes so much sense .. why do people bother with an adds tank if this is the case? You need to either mewing lullaby them, or make sure the adds tank isn't getting knocked back near the one holding Erinys.
Nobody good uses an add tank. Just keep them close to erinys and make sure mewing is hitting them all. Once you're in position, you shouldn't have to move again.
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-11-21 14:22:53
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
This makes so much sense .. why do people bother with an adds tank if this is the case? You need to either mewing lullaby them, or make sure the adds tank isn't getting knocked back near the one holding Erinys.
Nobody good uses an add tank. Just keep them close to erinys and make sure mewing is hitting them all. Once you're in position, you shouldn't have to move again.

Sweet. I was using Arislan's strategy of pld/dnc for adds and NIN for Erinys, and they've won using that combination, but it doesn't give enough details.
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-11-22 12:21:16
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On Erinys our PLD struggled to keep hate on /blu as he wasn't able to land Sheep Song at the start. He was way too slow to do it (followed by Invincible) that it made the fight way too difficult compared to last week when we used two tanks. 30 secs into the fight .. I'd Bully/Feint and get eaten by the adds. It was terrible, one of our worst events yet.

Someone suggested that /blu isn't that good, we were better off using pld/rdm for diaga to ensure the tank establishes hate on all. Circle Blade is useless and should never be used as it can easily miss and not get any hate.

There seems to be many ways of doing this, and the only issue we are having with Erinys is keeping hate. We are going to have to change the PLD on to something else, and use another player who we know can generate hate very, very quickly.

It's not a problem of damage, or even a problem of Mewing (we have 2 Nirvana Master SMNs cycling every 12-13 seconds), it's a problem of controlling this NM. Some advice from other players include "DONT BRING TOO MANY!", but then we bring like .. 8-10 of us and we can't handle the thing. I've only ever seen clears in YouTube videos with alliances of 12-18.

Of course bad hate management is the biggest issue for us, but I felt like we should have used a WHM so it could Auspice/Boost-DEX the DDs, as well as Cureskin/AoE Stoneskin the PLD. By doing this, it would've reduced TP feed. We were highly encouraged not to bring this job as it's a waste of a spot apparently. But our group isn't decked out in Aeonics .. this is our first kill, so even if we have to add more to ensure we can control the NM, then we have to do it.

I've seen so many tips, but most don't include enough detail. I have to explain things step by step, by step, to some of our members as they just don't have a clue what they are doing on these NM. As a PLD back in the 75 days, I know I could handle Erinys .. I'd probably Diaga > Sentinel > Invincible > Flash, and have a party chat macro for Invincible so the other players know when to start Mewing/DDing.

But I was only a 75 PLD back in the Limbus days, do we have any PLDs who have tanked this NM and know exactly what to do and when? I'd love to see a step-by-step on what a PLD is expected to do on Erinys. I'm chalking it down to our PLD being slow, but there could be more to it that I'm not seeing. Also the PLD did not know how to position the Boss and the adds at all .. I told them to go to the tree line, but they stood there in a crowd of adds at the pop .. so it was really hard to find him to SATA.

It's funny that we can beat Teles one week, then be completely useless on Erinys the next. And what exactly does the RDM do? I've seen different debuffs suggested, but it doesn't go in to what you Stymie, what you Saboteur, whether there's any point in Inundation & Distract III. How does a Bard land Threnody and Elegy without it resisting? I would be very, very grateful if someone can provide detail .. without insulting my group please. It was already hard enough to swallow without others looking down on us for sucking.
 Fenrir.Pertalee
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By Fenrir.Pertalee 2017-11-22 12:56:32
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If you pld cant keep hate with AOE blu spells (None of them land). Then he is not putting on Enmity for it... Never had to use invincible unless stuff went to ***, but very rarely.
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By Asura.Valguard 2017-11-22 13:03:18
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Are your DDs engaging the main NM Kylos? (They're not supposed to engage at all. Just SATA WS.) I've gone Pld/blu to him and just my initial spell was AOE then sentinel, palisade, rampart is virtually enough to hold hate on the adds over mewing for the entirety of the fight. Making sure Crusade is up. Having a 100% spell interruption set helps but isn't absolutely necessary. Ochain+Phalanx and Cocoon make you take virtually no dmg when holding everything. All of our thfs/wars/cors were just standing behind it. I don't think anyone was running around to trick. (The damn things are so big its hard to see anything at all when you're main tank. So asking them to position much more than popping and taking a few steps back before it all spawns can be tricky.) It shouldn't be too difficult for your tank to hold hate on the main NM with everyone just WSing every 50 seconds. This is a slow and steady fight. That being said. Your list only has 2DDs supporting 12 people. I believe we were using 6-8 DDs for 18 man. Is your Cor going /thf and using Savage Blade as well?

Edit: I believe I was using Jettatura when it was up as well though. Which is conal and a decent hate tool.
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-11-22 13:06:15
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I would also keep in mind that interruptions are likely if your PLD is not using a proper fast cast set. There is enough gear available now for PLD/BLU to get a full 80% fast cast, timing casts with proactive cureskin use will be a great help.

There is little argument for subjobs besides blu; you should not have any difficulty maintaining hate cap vs erinys with any sub due to the amount of trick attack in play. Cocoon's 50% defense is invaluable in reducing the tp gain, a single afflatus solace cure6 might block over 10 seconds of damage with cocoon/phalanx/minnes/defense food.

Using two tanks can work, but it's a crutch for groups that are blocked by gear and it requires much more support. Even a burtgang pld will take significant damage from the adds, and hp/mp down is very threatening. Executed properly, the solo tank strategy will never even drop the tank to yellow HP.
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-11-22 13:07:58
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I keep getting so many mixed tips for this. Some say /blu is fine, others say it's not needed as you shouldn't be acting on the adds at all. Some say if Cait Siths die it's game over, while others say we should expect Cait Siths to die, and we just resummon. My head hurts.
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-11-22 13:10:50
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Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Some say /blu is fine, others say it's not needed as you shouldn't be acting on the adds at all.
This is a matter of opinion. If you do not act on the adds, using mewing on the main NM will result in the adds killing cait sith and potentially moving around. Cait sith dying is not a problem, but if the adds move enough that mewing lullaby will no longer hit all of them you have to deal with repositioning.

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Some say if Cait Siths die it's game over, while others say we should expect Cait Siths to die, and we just resummon. My head hurts.
This goes back to the earlier issue. I would still recommend /blu; holding hate over cures should not be not an issue(mewing should be targeted on erinys so the only source of hate on adds should be actions targeting the PLD). It's much simpler to have the adds locked in place. Once you have your initial hate and positoning, the entire fight is just following rotation with nothing unexpected.
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 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-11-22 13:12:03
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Fenrir.Pertalee said: »
If you pld cant keep hate with AOE blu spells (None of them land). Then he is not putting on Enmity for it... Never had to use invincible unless stuff went to ***, but very rarely.

I couldn't see if anything did land or not, I think they couldn't hit the adds as they kept being interrupted. Been told by others that it's easier not to act on the adds at all.

Asura.Valguard said: »
Are your DDs engaging the main NM Kylos? (They're not supposed to engage at all. Just SATA WS.) I've gone Pld/blu to him and just my initial spell was AOE then sentinel, palisade, rampart is virtually enough to hold hate on the adds over mewing for the entirety of the fight. Making sure Crusade is up. Having a 100% spell interruption set helps but isn't absolutely necessary. Ochain+Phalanx and Cocoon make you take virtually no dmg when holding everything. All of our thfs/wars/cors were just standing behind it. I don't think anyone was running around to trick. (The damn things are so big its hard to see anything at all when you're main tank. So asking them to position much more than popping and taking a few steps back before it all spawns can be tricky.) It shouldn't be too difficult for your tank to hold hate on the main NM with everyone just WSing every 50 seconds. This is a slow and steady fight. That being said. Your list only has 2DDs supporting 12 people. I believe we were using 6-8 DDs for 18 man. Is your Cor going /thf and using Savage Blade as well?

Edit: I believe I was using Jettatura when it was up as well though. Which is conal and a decent hate tool.

Just last week we got it to 50% ish using two tanks. So like I said, the damage side isn't a problem whatsoever, and our COR was using /thf to Savage. We were only using Trick Attack though, not Sneak Attack.


Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
I would also keep in mind that interruptions are likely if your PLD is not using a proper fast cast set. There is enough gear available now for PLD/BLU to get a full 80% fast cast, timing casts with proactive cureskin use will be a great help.

There is little argument for subjobs besides blu; you should not have any difficulty maintaining hate cap vs erinys with any sub due to the amount of trick attack in play. Cocoon's 50% defense is invaluable in reducing the tp gain, a single afflatus solace cure6 might block over 10 seconds of damage with cocoon/phalanx/minnes/defense food.

Using two tanks can work, but it's a crutch for groups that are blocked by gear and it requires much more support. Even a burtgang pld will take significant damage from the adds, and hp/mp down is very threatening. Executed properly, the solo tank strategy will never even drop the tank to yellow HP.

Why would /rdm be a bad idea? Why are people so intent on using /blu when Diaga would do the trick just as well? And I guess we need a whm or /whm so someone can erase that HP/MP down, although I can't remember seeing this move.
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-11-22 13:14:52
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Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Why would /rdm be a bad idea? Why are people so intent on using /blu when Diaga would do the trick just as well? And I guess we need a whm or /whm so someone can erase that HP/MP down.

Diaga gives no meaningful hate. /blu spells all give significant amounts. Blank gaze is a very short recast single target hate spell. You shouldn't generally be using convert while tanking, and PLD can get capped FC without anything terribly expensive so fast cast traits don't matter either.

The only benefit of /rdm is a faster aoe tag, at that point you may as well load up a wing and start the fight with circle blade or earth crusher on /war.

Let's be clear though, cocoon is a gigantic benefit for this fight. Your only damage taken is from plain melee hits, 50% defense cannot be easily overlooked.

You will only see hp/mp down when using two tanks. The tank holding the adds will be hit by it, and if it's used near the time another add uses a damaging TP, they can potentially die. When solo tanking everything, mewing will guarantee you never see anything besides plain melee, and are never in any danger.
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 Asura.Eiryl
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By Asura.Eiryl 2017-11-22 13:15:12
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Done it both ways, neither matter.

What matters is people not doing something stupid; resting, aoeing, assaulting the adds and not main.

/blu and keeping baby hate lowers chance of a tard screwing it up. If you're good, then you dont have to do anything to babies.
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By Asura.Valguard 2017-11-22 13:17:14
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I used /blu as it provides hate tools and further defense compared to /rdm. Cocoon/Sheep Song/ Jettatura / Geist Wall

/rdm provides... Aquaveil? And some fast cast.

My whm was /sch and using accession Aquaveil for me to start the fight with.
 Asura.Cair
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By Asura.Cair 2017-11-22 13:18:35
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If you're good you'd sub BLU because it's the best option.
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-11-22 13:22:31
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Why would /rdm be a bad idea? Why are people so intent on using /blu when Diaga would do the trick just as well? And I guess we need a whm or /whm so someone can erase that HP/MP down.

Diaga gives no meaningful hate. /blu spells all give significant amounts. Blank gaze is a very short recast single target hate spell. You shouldn't generally be using convert while tanking, and PLD can get capped FC without anything terribly expensive so fast cast traits don't matter either.

The only benefit of /rdm is a faster aoe tag, at that point you may as well load up a wing and start the fight with circle blade or earth crusher on /war.

Let's be clear though, cocoon is a gigantic benefit for this fight. Your only damage taken is from plain melee hits, 50% defense cannot be easily overlooked.

You will only see hp/mp down when using two tanks. The tank holding the adds will be hit by it, and if it's used near the time another add uses a damaging TP, they can potentially die. When solo tanking everything, mewing will guarantee you never see anything besides plain melee, and are never in any danger.

Circle Blade has a habit of missing, so I'd rather not resort to that.

As a PLD/blu which moves are they using to generate tons of hate? I'm not a blu myself so I wouldn't know where to start.
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By Sylph.Oraen 2017-11-22 13:23:47
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Right, so /BLU is the optimal choice. Excellent enmity generation and Cocoon is amazing.
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By Asura.Valguard 2017-11-22 13:25:59
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Cerberus.Kylos said: »
As a PLD/blu which moves are they using to generate tons of hate? I'm not a blu myself so I wouldn't know where to start.

Asura.Valguard said: »
I used /blu as it provides hate tools and further defense compared to /rdm. Cocoon/Sheep Song/ Jettatura / Geist Wall
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-11-22 13:29:20
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Asura.Valguard said: »
Cerberus.Kylos said: »
As a PLD/blu which moves are they using to generate tons of hate? I'm not a blu myself so I wouldn't know where to start.

Asura.Valguard said: »
I used /blu as it provides hate tools and further defense compared to /rdm. Cocoon/Sheep Song/ Jettatura / Geist Wall

D'oh ... my bad. I'm reading a lot of things right now. I think I've figured out what is better for the tank we use. We have two tanks, one is probably better doing the non-AOE method as he may struggle to generate hate with /blu, while the other PLD (who we rarely use as he's on DP COR) I could trust to generate hate with the AOE method. Now I know this, I can let our players know what to expect whichever way we end up doing it. I think once we have the hate issue under control, it should be a done deal, I just want to avoid another disaster.
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By Fenrir.Pertalee 2017-11-22 13:32:04
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Sent you PM with more specific details.
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-11-22 13:34:39
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I already got some details on the non-AOE method, which we might have to try with the PLD we have, but if that doesn't work, we can use the other PLD and have them generate super hate with the AOE method. Repositioning on the non-AOE method shouldn't be an issue if everyone stays within the crowd of adds and close to Erinys. Cait Siths will die, but at least it will be safer with the PLD we are using.
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-11-22 13:36:19
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Cerberus.Kylos said: »
Circle Blade has a habit of missing, so I'd rather not resort to that.
A missed circle blade gives the same VE/CE as a 0 damage diaga, basically none. The hate comes from using your self target JA afterwards, you just need to be on hate list for them to work.

I'm still not recommending that though, plain and simple the best option is a single tank on PLD/BLU. Anything else is making it harder for yourself.

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I already got some details on the non-AOE method, which we might have to try with the PLD we have, but if that doesn't work, we can use the other PLD and have them generate super hate with the AOE method. Repositioning on the non-AOE method shouldn't be an issue if everyone stays within the crowd of adds and close to Erinys. Cait Siths will die, but at least it will be safer with the PLD we are using.
Repositioning will be an issue, mobs are very illogical about repositioning and they're bulky enough they can't spin in place. With 6 adds, they can't all be facing the cait sith that last mewed them. They don't spin in place, they move a little bit to turn, and their movement triggers the others and potentially erinys to move.

I'm not saying it can't work or it isn't the best option for you, but don't expect that clustering tightly will keep them from flailing around.
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By Fenrir.Pertalee 2017-11-22 13:38:03
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Sounds scary to have them moving all around, but I'd like to know how it goes.
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By Asura.Valguard 2017-11-22 13:42:53
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
erberus.Kylos said: ยป
Circle Blade has a habit of missing, so I'd rather not resort to that.
A missed circle blade gives the same VE/CE as a 0 damage diaga, basically none. The hate comes from using your self target JA afterwards, you just need to be on hate list for them to work.

I'm still not recommending that though, plain and simple the best option is a single tank on PLD/BLU. Anything else is making it harder for yourself.

This^^. That's why I was generally just casting the one spell at the beginning to tag them all. And then popping sentinel and your two other self-target abilities should be enough to hold hate for quite awhile on its own. Rinse and repeat these abilities when able. Keeping Cocoon up and then Jettatura and Geist Wall when possible.
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-11-22 13:43:17
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I've been talking to a guy in PMs who's said he's done Erinys using AOE and non-AOE method, and thinks the non-AOE method would suit us more. If we were to try the AOE method, I'd have to switch our DP COR on to his PLD, which is doable for sure, but I'd like to keep people on the same jobs if possible, for continuity.

I'm not sure how we'd set up the mewing cycle using this method though, or the dangers of having the adds move around, but apparently the adds won't move around too much if everyone (incl. SMNs) stays within the crowd.
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By Shiva.Spynx 2017-11-22 13:59:23
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A DP COR is pointless on a mob that takes like 200 dmg leadens and even if you were to use that for SC opening for some reason DP wouldn't matter. The only important part of COR is if they have gear to enhance roll (in particular tactician) so if you think that guy would be a better tank i'd try that option.

I always did it with double tank and as long as the erynis tank is able to get hit for 0 (ochain/priwen+phalanx+cocoon) and the healer of the add tanks is not sleeping, the fight is pretty straight-forward
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By Shiva.Arislan 2017-11-22 14:00:09
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Hehe, I guess I'm obligated to respond now. :)

Almost no strategy you find online can be followed like a script (exception being SMN-zerg... lol). The stuff I shared wasn't really meant as a general strategy (or even for public consumption) -- they were tailored for the players/jobs/experience-levels our LS had at its disposal. Your mileage will definitely vary, and you should only really use them as primers, not gospel.

As for providing more details:

We used two tanks because I wanted to avoid those enmity and positioning issues that you described. Our better tanks were needed more on other jobs, so we made things as simple as we could for the people who would be handling the role. A pop+supertank PLD doesn't have to worry about hate at all, and a 100JP NIN can tank Erinys all day with shadows to spare. If you have a skilled tank who can hold all five mobs at once and keep them locked to him in the proper position... then it's actually safer to mew the adds too. If your PLD can't, then better not overload them with responsibility.

As for how many people to bring, honestly it really doesn't matter as long as your SMNs don't miss a mew. I've gone with a 12-person alliance with a single lonely DNC doing all the damage and we were able to kill it quickly. It's up to you to determine how much scaling your group is comfortable with. Since you're still in the initial stages of feeling out the fight, I wouldn't be too aggressive w/ scaling back the # of players. Better to time out and learn something from it, than faceplant before you even get going.

If you have one tank, you can pop it anywhere, but best to have the tank hold it against a wall so the adds don't surround them (for shield blocks/parries and easier TAs). If you have two tanks, go to #2 and use the elevation there to isolate the adds at the bottom of the hill. I forget if it's Warped Wind or Calamitous Wail that has a wide AoE, but it can wipe your alliance if they aren't at a different elevation/out of range/in -DT.

As for debuffs, they are just gravy. We often go w/o RDM, and the clear times aren't much different. Same with tanks, our LS RDM's are usually on other jobs for Erinys.

Anyway good luck. If you have m ore questions, I'd be happy to help.
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-11-22 14:05:01
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Shiva.Spynx said: »
A DP COR is pointless on a mob that takes like 200 dmg leadens and even if you were to use that for SC opening for some reason DP wouldn't matter. The only important part of COR is if they have gear to enhance roll (in particular tactician) so if you think that guy would be a better tank i'd try that option.

I always did it with double tank and as long as the erynis tank is able to get hit for 0 (ochain/priwen+phalanx+cocoon) and the healer of the add tanks is not sleeping, the fight is pretty straight-forward

Yeah I just said DP COR to show how seriously he takes the job. It wasn't anything important, just to highlight why we chose not to use him as the PLD, because we knew his rolls and damage from Savage would work really well for us.

Shiva.Arislan said: »
Hehe, I guess I'm obligated to respond now. :)

Almost no strategy you find online can be followed like a script (exception being SMN-zerg... lol). The stuff I shared wasn't really meant as a general strategy (or even for public consumption) -- they were tailored for the players/jobs/experience-levels our LS had at its disposal. Your mileage will definitely vary, and you should only really use them as primers, not gospel.

As for providing more details:

We used two tanks because I wanted to avoid those enmity and positioning issues that you described. Our better tanks were needed more on other jobs, so we made things as simple as we could for the people who would be handling the role. A pop+supertank PLD doesn't have to worry about hate at all, and a 100JP NIN can tank Erinys all day with shadows to spare. If you have a skilled tank who can hold all five mobs at once and keep them locked to him in the proper position... then it's actually safer to mew the adds too. If your PLD can't, then better not overload them with responsibility.

As for how many people to bring, honestly it really doesn't matter as long as your SMNs don't miss a mew. I've gone with a 12-person alliance with a single lonely DNC doing all the damage and we were able to kill it quickly. It's up to you to determine how much scaling your group is comfortable with. Since you're still in the initial stages of feeling out the fight, I wouldn't be too aggressive w/ scaling back the # of players. Better to time out and learn something from it, than faceplant before you even get going.

If you have one tank, you can pop it anywhere, but best to have the tank hold it against a wall so the adds don't surround them (for shield blocks/parries and easier TAs). If you have two tanks, go to #2 and use the elevation there to isolate the adds at the bottom of the hill. I forget if it's Warped Wind or Calamitous Wail that has a wide AoE, but it can wipe your alliance if they aren't at a different elevation/out of range/in -DT.

As for debuffs, they are just gravy. We often go w/o RDM, and the clear times aren't much different. Same with tanks, our LS RDM's are usually on other jobs for Erinys.

Anyway good luck. If you have m ore questions, I'd be happy to help.

Thanks man, I knew that our group couldn't work like yours, but I really needed to figure out why we were having so much trouble. There's not a lot of info out there on how to beat these things without resorting to the typical burn. Hopefully this thread can continue to give more details on how to handle these beasts with their gimmicks.

Edit: Deleted Arislan's strategy from the earlier post.
 Shiva.Arislan
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By Shiva.Arislan 2017-11-22 14:33:04
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Erinys is definitely one of those fights that seems completely ridiculous and intimidating before you are able to get your first win. Once you figure out the rhythm/pattern of the fight, it becomes much more predictable and less scary.
 Cerberus.Kylos
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By Cerberus.Kylos 2017-11-22 14:40:14
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Shiva.Arislan said: »
Erinys is definitely one of those fights that seems completely ridiculous and intimidating before you are able to get your first win. Once you figure out the rhythm/pattern of the fight, it becomes much more predictable and less scary.

Yeah I heard it was one of the easiest, but it ended up being not as simple as imagined. We just need to get a method down, and we should be fine. Deciding whether to AOE or non-AOE is the biggie now, and I'll have to talk to our tank about it.
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By Leviathan.Celebrindal 2017-11-22 15:09:30
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My personal experiences with erinys are extremely varied... Some (most) days its the easiest fight, other days it seems to go all wrong for no reason. Keep plugging, and like was said earlier once you get the rhythm you'll have more good days than bad.
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