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Ochain
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By Jution 2017-03-17 23:37:44
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Well im super lazy...with that comes 2 questions. 1. Is ochain really needed? I have aegis, most of +1 souveran. D ring ~ the works. Should i main aegis full time? Some say its pointless over 125 content, and over 125 is mostly if not all the only content I do. 2nd, and the reason i posted in general, is that if I do need Ochain. Will anybody be willing to farm all the items / help me for a price? Never tried any of this, guess it would be an abyssea "merc". Please PM me, or respond to forum. Thanks ~
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By clearlyamule 2017-03-18 00:43:08
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Wouldn't call it needed but it's definitely not useless after 125. It definitely varies on the fight. And I definitely wouldn't full time aegis every fight.
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By Skjalfeirdotter 2017-03-18 02:41:47
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An Ochain is not needed to be a good PLD. There are other shields which in several ways are better than Ochain. Priwen's total physical damage taken, Magic Evasion, Hit Points, etc. make it better overall than Ochain in Skjalf's opinion.




(Augments can also be Damage taken -9% or 10% and HP+80)


(Note: this does not include Priwen augments.)
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By clearlyamule 2017-03-18 03:16:24
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Should be noted that a few things change those values a bit. Notably higher lvls (ie things you'd actually want a tank for to begin with) Ochain will lose less and +block rate is factored after reprisal. So Ochain is still likely more dmg reduction most the time you actually care and the mp isn't to be overlooked.

Also with enough +shield defense bonus Srivatsa can theoretically reach -100% dmg reduction on blocks which could be pretty cool but us finding out +block rate is after reprisal and the need for DM augments to get the block rates high kind of minimize the appeal as a bit of what we are locking for in a shield is consistency
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By Skjalfeirdotter 2017-03-18 04:03:48
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clearlyamule said: »
Also with enough +shield defense bonus Srivatsa can theoretically reach -100% dmg reduction on blocks which could be pretty cool

Do you specifically mean "Shield Def. Bonus"?





Sounds like a cool idea, but the decrease of all the other various stats probably does not make it worth it.
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By clearlyamule 2017-03-18 04:44:09
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Yes def. is the abbreviation for defense... it totally would have been worth it if you could still achieve 100% block rate since basically any blockable hit would deal 0 dmg. And that did look possible with DM augments on decent level mobs until we Martel did tests that should reprisals bonus didn't apply to +shield block rate stat. But has since sadly become a dream... at least until power creep bumps stuff up again
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By Skjalfeirdotter 2017-03-18 05:04:44
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Maybe with something like this...?

ItemSet 350048
 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-03-18 07:22:35
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I think I use Ochain for Erynis... And... That's it? I'm struggling to think of anything else. Erynis uses no magical attacks and the goal is to have it hit for 0 as much as possible to limit it's TP gain.

Even though it is rarely used, it is still nice to have. But should content be released that benefits from it, you won't want to have to farm it while you'd rather be doing said new content.

It is super easy to make. Sooooo easy, now that Abyssean upgrades are 100%. Read up on it and you could finish it in a weekend.
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By Lakshmi.Konvict 2017-03-18 08:04:24
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This is just me but I use Ochain for Omen non MB floor and for the glassy NMs, intense ambuscade and only a few aeonic nms. I'd recommend getting it.
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By Bismarck.Kuroganashi 2017-03-18 08:08:04
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1) Yes you do need Ochain if you want to be safe for every Situation

Final goal is : Aegis 99 / Ochain 90+ / Burtgang 119 (F)

So keep that in mind

Also its so much easier to farm Ochain now, back when I did I had competition everywhere and we were not lvl 119 , so you will have no issues, specially if you finished RoV it is 100% Update on KI instead of the lousy 33% or w/e it was before XD


I wish you best of luck with getting Ochain :)
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By Asura.Ramsy 2017-03-18 08:59:13
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Lakshmi.Konvict said: »
This is just me but I use Ochain for Omen non MB floor and for the glassy NMs, intense ambuscade and only a few aeonic nms. I'd recommend getting it.
^ this is basically everything I use it for also. Makes glassy nms dmg/ view sync a joke.
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 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2017-03-18 09:13:30
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Skjalfeirdotter said: »
An Ochain is not needed to be a good PLD. There are other shields which in several ways are better than Ochain. Priwen's total physical damage taken, Magic Evasion, Hit Points, etc. make it better overall than Ochain in Skjalf's opinion.

(Note: this does not include Priwen augments.)
That table doesn't consider the actual PDT/DT stats at all. Because they're largely irrelevant to the comparison. PDT/DT and block dmg reduction are separate multiplicative terms. And you can cap PDT/DT regardless of which shield is used

Also if you're going to repost my block tables, at least link the original post or something. Context is important. And if that's from the post I think it's from, the Srivatsa numbers had an error in the block dmg reduction that I made a note about later. iirc the actual block dmg value should have been -98%.

It's too damn early in the morning for me to math, but I'm pretty sure that on higher tier current content that Priwen's base blockrate tanks to the point that not even it's reprisal enhancement can save it.

You have to keep in mind that Reprisal enhances base block rate. When your base is crap, even x3 doesn't do much for you.

Also, even on lower mobs where Priwen had comparable overall dmg reduction... It's the spike damage from an unblocked ws that kills you. not the averaged out melee hits. Ochain can cap blockrate on lower content like that. Priwen can't. That consistent dmg reduction is valuable.

Shield selection is almost binary. Need Aegis? If yes, Aegis. If no Ochain. I like the meva on Priwen, but I'm hard pressed to think of a situation where I'd actually wear priwen for it.

And finally, please stop waving that Svalinn around like it's good or something. The thing's been garbage since it came out. And I'd feel really bad for any noob that saw that, and went to the trouble to augment it to that degree only to find out it was crap later.
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By Odin.Speedyjim 2017-03-18 09:25:56
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Candlejack said: »
Jution said: »
Will anybody be willing to farm all the items / help me for a price? Never tried any of this, guess it would be an abyssea "merc". Please PM me, or respond to forum. Thanks ~
If you have access to the THF job and NIN subjob at Lv.99 with a halfway decent hybrid TH+/Evasion tanking kit that falls somewhere in the iLvl.100+ range, then you really shouldn't have a problem farming the Abyssea mobs solo. The only possible pains would be getting red triggers for KIs and yellow triggers for material drops.
Jution said: »
Well im super lazy...
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By mrpresident 2017-03-18 11:16:25
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
And finally, please stop waving that Svalinn around like it's good or something. The thing's been garbage since it came out. And I'd feel really bad for any noob that saw that, and went to the trouble to augment it to that degree only to find out it was crap later.

Oh man, this really made me lmao haha. But yes, agreed.

Personally, I love my Ochain. I actually got mine before my Aegis because it was easier to farm (too broke to buy my Aegis at the time). Its just such a great shield, and so easy to get, I don't see any reason not to make one.

Every situation is obviously different, but I'm going /Blu more times than not now, so I use Ochain any chance I can get away with it for that MP return. Bonus.
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-03-18 11:24:42
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Ochain has uses, but they're more of a 'technically...' use than a real need.

I have both and when I'm multiboxing I don't bother swapping to ochain on anything except erinys(and even then I forget half the time). I've never came close to dying or lost hate as a result of using aegis over ochain, and I've done everything in the game.

If you want to have a perfect PLD and be absolute best case in every scenario, you do need it. If you want to be functional and are otherwise well equipped and attentive, nobody will ever even notice you don't have ochain.
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By Shiva.Eightball 2017-03-18 12:00:29
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Ochain has uses, but they're more of a 'technically...' use than a real need.

I have both and when I'm multiboxing I don't bother swapping to ochain on anything except erinys(and even then I forget half the time). I've never came close to dying or lost hate as a result of using aegis over ochain, and I've done everything in the game.

If you want to have a perfect PLD and be absolute best case in every scenario, you do need it. If you want to be functional and are otherwise well equipped and attentive, nobody will ever even notice you don't have ochain.

while you are sorta right, there are things you just cant do with Aegis, for instance if you tried to hold all the mobs on a Omen farm floor with Aegis you are gonna die but with Ochain i can set phalanx and pretty much sit there holding them w/o doing anything.
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By Skjalfeirdotter 2017-03-18 12:42:40
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Skjalfeirdotter said: »
An Ochain is not needed to be a good PLD. There are other shields which in several ways are better than Ochain. Priwen's total physical damage taken, Magic Evasion, Hit Points, etc. make it better overall than Ochain in Skjalf's opinion.

(Note: this does not include Priwen augments.)
That table doesn't consider the actual PDT/DT stats at all. Because they're largely irrelevant to the comparison. PDT/DT and block dmg reduction are separate multiplicative terms. And you can cap PDT/DT regardless of which shield is used

Also if you're going to repost my block tables, at least link the original post or something. Context is important. And if that's from the post I think it's from, the Srivatsa numbers had an error in the block dmg reduction that I made a note about later. iirc the actual block dmg value should have been -98%.

It's too damn early in the morning for me to math, but I'm pretty sure that on higher tier current content that Priwen's base blockrate tanks to the point that not even it's reprisal enhancement can save it.

You have to keep in mind that Reprisal enhances base block rate. When your base is crap, even x3 doesn't do much for you.

Also, even on lower mobs where Priwen had comparable overall dmg reduction... It's the spike damage from an unblocked ws that kills you. not the averaged out melee hits. Ochain can cap blockrate on lower content like that. Priwen can't. That consistent dmg reduction is valuable.

Shield selection is almost binary. Need Aegis? If yes, Aegis. If no Ochain. I like the meva on Priwen, but I'm hard pressed to think of a situation where I'd actually wear priwen for it.

And finally, please stop waving that Svalinn around like it's good or something. The thing's been garbage since it came out. And I'd feel really bad for any noob that saw that, and went to the trouble to augment it to that degree only to find out it was crap later.

Found that chart with google image search a while back, don't remember its source. If its your's, thank you. Do you think you could update it if it isn't not correct / up-to-date, please?

Have you tested Svalinn with block+10 on it to confirm that it is "garbage" or are you just saying that? Skjalf likes it for TP gain. :3
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By clearlyamule 2017-03-18 13:17:21
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Pretty sure all Martel's shield testing and retesting is in the big pld thread. Probably better off looking at the sources there instead of google images
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By Valefor.Omnys 2017-03-18 14:48:06
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Skjalfeirdotter said: »
An Ochain is not needed to be a good PLD. There are other shields which in several ways are better than Ochain. Priwen's total physical damage taken, Magic Evasion, Hit Points, etc. make it better overall than Ochain in Skjalf's opinion.

I'm not saying that you should but you can get through every boss in this game with Aegis equipped (which on a few fights is almost equivalent to not wearing a shield, or of negligible use).

However Ochain has a great place on trash (which is about half of what a PLD does in Omen). Do you have an Ochain, I think that weights your opinion when advising others on its value? Also of note, there's a few bosses and will likely be more where you can't keep Reprisal up (due to dispel, spell-steal, or slow auras) or can't use it.

Also, while noone has ever built one for the mp recovery (I'd hope), it's not to be disregarded.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2017-03-18 15:22:32
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I see very little reason to update an image that was intend for use in a single post as a case specific example a long time ago. It's not a shield block bible, or a guide, and honestly lvl 126 is a pretty low bar now a days. A lot of old posts are now incorrect due to new discoveries or changes to the game. I'm not about to start updating my entire post history either.

Anyway. Unless you think there's some kind of hidden effect on Svalinn that we're unaware of, then there's no need to physically have it to know it's blockrate/effectiveness. If you think that's the case, then feel free to test it.

I'm pretty sure I posted something about Svalinn somewhere... but anyway. I'll go over this briefly.

Svalinn is a size 3 shield with +112 skill(and +10 from augments, but we'll factor that later.)

Since the base stats are identical to Priwen, we can use Priwen's blockrate on 126 mobs and build from there.

So 30.21% block rate to start. Then we factor in the skill+10 aug for 2.15% additional block rate. So 32.36% is our new base.

Add in the Block+10 aug and we have 42.36. with -88% dmg on block that makes it -37.2 overall dmg reduction. Grats, it's better than Priwen without reprisal. But that's cause Priwen sucks without reprisal.

And reprisal is where Svalinn takes a kick to the teeth. Block+ gear applies after reprisal. Meaning the pre block+ rate of 32.36 is what we modify with reprisal. so 32.36*1.5=48.54+10=58.54. This makes the reprisal up total dmg reduction -51.5%.

A value that gets crushed horribly by a much easier to get shield(Priwen). So reprisal up, Svalinn is crushed by Priwen and Ochain. Then reprisal down it's smashed by Ochain.

A new table image for you.



Now, let's talk TP gain.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that Svalinn is better for Shield mastery TP gain than Ochain. Allow me to correct this misapprehension.

Yes, Svalinn gets more TP per block than Ochain. On a master PLD with Shield mastery +4 aug on Svalinn, and no additional gear that would be;

Ochain: 75 TP/block
Svalinn:115 TP/block

But Svalinn doesn't block worth a damn. You have to block to get that TP. It's basically that equivalent of having 50% acc, then stacking STP, rather than using a weapon that can hit.

See the image of the table below. Here I've broken down shield mastery TP gain, then made comparisons for Ochain and Svalinn using their reprisal up block rates vs 126 mobs. And then a second set using all non shield additional shield mastery+ gear.


As the table shows, Ochain gets more TP overall despite a lower base TP gain, by blocking vastly more hits. And the more hits coming your way, the bigger a deal this is. Makes a huge difference in cleave speed.

To surpass Ochain TP gain, Svalinn would have to reach 66% block rate. Which would only happen briefly during palisade, or on complete trash mobs. And if both shields were using max shield mastery+ gear, then svalinn would need 76% block rate to match ochain.

I was really annoyed when the Shield mastery Augs for Beatific/+1 and Svallinn were discovered, cause I knew at a glance that they'd be useless, and I really wanted more shield mastery to use with Ochain. If they'd have just put shield mastery augs on Alluvion armor instead.... Anyway.

Svalinn was crap when it came out cause Ochain already existed, But at least it could serve as a stepping stone to those who didn't have Ochain yet. Freaking expensive stepping stone though, if you want augs like those. Then Priwen came out. Now Svalinn is most suitable use is hanging on a mannequin.
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By Skjalfeirdotter 2017-03-18 15:50:30
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
I see very little reason to update an image that was intend for use in a single post as a case specific example a long time ago. It's not a shield block bible, or a guide, and honestly lvl 126 is a pretty low bar now a days. A lot of old posts are now incorrect due to new discoveries or changes to the game. I'm not about to start updating my entire post history either.

Anyway. Unless you think there's some kind of hidden effect on Svalinn that we're unaware of, then there's no need to physically have it to know it's blockrate/effectiveness. If you think that's the case, then feel free to test it.

I'm pretty sure I posted something about Svalinn somewhere... but anyway. I'll go over this briefly.

Svalinn is a size 3 shield with +112 skill(and +10 from augments, but we'll factor that later.)

Since the base stats are identical to Priwen, we can use Priwen's blockrate on 126 mobs and build from there.

So 30.21% block rate to start. Then we factor in the skill+10 aug for 2.15% additional block rate. So 32.36% is our new base.

Add in the Block+10 aug and we have 42.36. with -88% dmg on block that makes it -37.2 overall dmg reduction. Grats, it's better than Priwen without reprisal. But that's cause Priwen sucks without reprisal.

And reprisal is where Svalinn takes a kick to the teeth. Block+ gear applies after reprisal. Meaning the pre block+ rate of 32.36 is what we modify with reprisal. so 32.36*1.5=48.54+10=58.54. This makes the reprisal up total dmg reduction -51.5%.

A value that gets crushed horribly by a much easier to get shield(Priwen). So reprisal up, Svalinn is crushed by Priwen and Ochain. Then reprisal down it's smashed by Ochain.

A new table image for you.



Now, let's talk TP gain.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that Svalinn is better for Shield mastery TP gain than Ochain. Allow me to correct this misapprehension.

Yes, Svalinn gets more TP per block than Ochain. On a master PLD with Shield mastery +4 aug on Svalinn, and no additional gear that would be;

Ochain: 75 TP/block
Svalinn:115 TP/block

But Svalinn doesn't block worth a damn. You have to block to get that TP. It's basically that equivalent of having 50% acc, then stacking STP, rather than using a weapon that can hit.

See the image of the table below. Here I've broken down shield mastery TP gain, then made comparisons for Ochain and Svalinn using their reprisal up block rates vs 126 mobs. And then a second set using all non shield additional shield mastery+ gear.


As the table shows, Ochain gets more TP overall despite a lower base TP gain, by blocking vastly more hits. And the more hits coming your way, the bigger a deal this is. Makes a huge difference in cleave speed.

To surpass Ochain TP gain, Svalinn would have to reach 66% block rate. Which would only happen briefly during palisade, or on complete trash mobs. And if both shields were using max shield mastery+ gear, then svalinn would need 76% block rate to match ochain.

I was really annoyed when the Shield mastery Augs for Beatific/+1 and Svallinn were discovered, cause I knew at a glance that they'd be useless, and I really wanted more shield mastery to use with Ochain. If they'd have just put shield mastery augs on Alluvion armor instead.... Anyway.

Svalinn was crap when it came out cause Ochain already existed, But at least it could serve as a stepping stone to those who didn't have Ochain yet. Freaking expensive stepping stone though, if you want augs like those. Then Priwen came out. Now Svalinn is most suitable use is hanging on a mannequin.

Thank you the numbers. These number probably don't take into account macroing in Priwen for Reprisal prior to using Svalinn. (That would make a difference, wouldn't it?) Svalinn (with bock+10) sure does seems to block a lot more than 50~60% on Apex mobs [even without Reprisal]... But that's just eyeballing... maybe Skjalf will go test it on a bunch of mobs. :3
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By Skjalfeirdotter 2017-03-18 15:55:02
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Valefor.Omnys said: »
Skjalfeirdotter said: »
An Ochain is not needed to be a good PLD. There are other shields which in several ways are better than Ochain. Priwen's total physical damage taken, Magic Evasion, Hit Points, etc. make it better overall than Ochain in Skjalf's opinion.

Do you have an Ochain, I think that weights your opinion when advising others on its value?

No, Skjalf does not have an Ochain. Started working on it, but after Priwen came out stopped working it. Have not felt the need for an Ochain. Just Aegis, Priwen (Augmented), Svalinn, Ajax +1, Nibiru Shield, Blurred Shield +1, Forfend +1, and Thuellaic Ecu +1. ^^
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2017-03-18 16:08:57
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Probably the easiest way to record your tests would be to use battle mod and the simplify command to make it display blocks in the log, then you use logger to record the chat log.

Make sure that all the mobs in your test are the same level, and use a /echo to note in the logs when your tests started/ended(cause while you were pulling you may not have been facing all mobs)

And finally, you have to make sure that you're being hit in consistent shield+/block+ values. So either lock your gear, or make sure you're not swapping to anything with skill/block+ on it.

The test values I put out are usually base skill(440+skill on shield) with no block+ gear. so if you have any extra your numbers will be oddly high in comparison.

If you want to be accurate to within 1~2% of the actual value, you'll want something like 3k hits per sample. if you're just looking for a ball park you can do less, though.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2017-03-18 16:15:27
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Skjalfeirdotter said: »
Thank you the numbers. These number probably don't take into account macroing in Priwen for Reprisal prior to using Svalinn. (That would make a difference, wouldn't it?)
Macroing in Priwen doesn't work. The reprisal bonus is lost once priwen is removed. That's straight from SE in a dev post.
Skjalfeirdotter said: »
No, Skjalf does not have an Ochain. Started working on it, but after Priwen came out stopped working it. Have not felt the need for an Ochain. Just Aegis, Priwen (Augmented), Svalinn, Ajax +1, Nibiru Shield, Blurred Shield +1, Forfend +1, and Thuellaic Ecu +1. ^^
The heck do you even use most of those for? Blurred +1 I get. Good DD piece when you don;t really need much in the way of defense.

But the rest of that... Are you shield swapping for individual casts or something? I would kinda get ajax, that's good enmity+. Nibiru, fastcast? but what would you even use forfend/Thuelliac ecu for?
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By Valefor.Omnys 2017-03-18 16:51:59
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That's what I was thinking. Or perhaps WAR shields.

And if you are shield-swapping like that, why is tp gain a concern?
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-03-18 17:10:03
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Ecu probably for Aoelian
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By Siren.Kyte 2017-03-18 18:17:07
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Ecu would lose to Blurred+1 for that =/
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By Skjalfeirdotter 2017-03-18 18:31:00
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Skjalfeirdotter said: »
Thank you the numbers. These number probably don't take into account macroing in Priwen for Reprisal prior to using Svalinn. (That would make a difference, wouldn't it?)
Macroing in Priwen doesn't work. The reprisal bonus is lost once priwen is removed. That's straight from SE in a dev post.
Skjalfeirdotter said: »
No, Skjalf does not have an Ochain. Started working on it, but after Priwen came out stopped working it. Have not felt the need for an Ochain. Just Aegis, Priwen (Augmented), Svalinn, Ajax +1, Nibiru Shield, Blurred Shield +1, Forfend +1, and Thuellaic Ecu +1. ^^
The heck do you even use most of those for? Blurred +1 I get. Good DD piece when you don;t really need much in the way of defense.

But the rest of that... Are you shield swapping for individual casts or something? I would kinda get ajax, that's good enmity+. Nibiru, fastcast? but what would you even use forfend/Thuelliac ecu for?

/cry

Ecu for PLD/RDM or PLD/SCH :P
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-03-18 20:30:05
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Siren.Kyte said: »
Ecu would lose to Blurred+1 for that =/
Didn't even see blurred on the list, no clue then.
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