Jobs Where Non-REMA Is BiS.

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Jobs where non-REMA is BiS.
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 Asura.Ladyofhonor
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2017-03-14 10:11:53
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Just wondering if there are any, aside from the obvious mage jobs. Are all melee jobs REMA for BiS by now?
 Asura.Chiaia
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By Asura.Chiaia 2017-03-14 10:56:53
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Only thing I can think of is TP Bonus gun for a Melee COR. Probably not the melee you were thinking of though :P
 Fenrir.Ramzus
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By Fenrir.Ramzus 2017-03-14 11:00:18
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1)
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2017-03-14 11:04:08
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What about Barbarity+1 for BST?
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2017-03-14 11:18:47
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Depends on how deep into this you want to get. Offhands? Alternative skillchain options and damage types? Utility swaps?
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 Asura.Ladyofhonor
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2017-03-14 11:34:05
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Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
Depends on how deep into this you want to get. Offhands? Alternative skillchain options and damage types? Utility swaps?

Basically asking if there are any jobs I can 2100 without feeling like I'm missing out by not having REMA for it.
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By clearlyamule 2017-03-14 11:40:57
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bst, pup
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-03-14 11:42:07
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BRD, it's totally the job who needs the least REMA out of all the playable jobs in FFXI.


On a serious note I'd be leaning to say mage jobs, but I guess for whatever reason you ruled them out already?

And also I can understand not wanting to go through the lenghty process of farming a RMEA and all the different time and gil expensive processed involved, but when you have the A option which is basically free, why are you considering to go non RMEA on a DD job?
Just get its aeonic and call it a day, no?

I'm sure I'm missing something here though and my reply is too simple because I completely missed your point.
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By geigei 2017-03-14 11:50:42
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Blm.
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 Sylph.Traxus
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By Sylph.Traxus 2017-03-14 11:51:01
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H2h RMEAs are pretty shitty for doing pet things on pup.
 Ragnarok.Primex
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By Ragnarok.Primex 2017-03-14 12:00:24
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BLM
 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2017-03-14 12:02:53
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2100 BST, but is that really what you would consider melee? I've seen over a few dozen 2100 BSTs in my time, and they barely have augmented valorous gear, let alone an RMEA.
 Cerberus.Anjisnu
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By Cerberus.Anjisnu 2017-03-14 12:08:38
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just because you've seen ***bsts doesn't make mythic not BiS lol unless 1000 tp bonus is bad for pet ws now
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By clearlyamule 2017-03-14 12:56:14
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Most of the time Aymur is really only going to be 500 tp bonus.

Using double alluvion, gifts and af3 hands with a war pet your pet is already at 2540 so boosting it to 3k would represent about 5-7% dmg increase to most the single hit physical moves and similar to some of the magic ones I've looked at. So other stats might be more important. Though obviously non war types the tp bonus favors aymur more and the attack might matter

Like a lot of things it's situationally BiS. Roughly I'd except it to lose on magical and multihits. Either way you wouldn't feel like you are missing out without it
 Lakshmi.Konvict
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By Lakshmi.Konvict 2017-03-14 13:00:32
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Nothing.
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By Jadey 2017-03-14 13:06:04
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For 95% of what PUP does Kenkonken is at best a macro piece to avoid Overload.
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 Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2017-03-14 15:19:18
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clearlyamule said: »
Most of the time Aymur is really only going to be 500 tp bonus.

Using double alluvion, gifts and af3 hands with a war pet your pet is already at 2540 so boosting it to 3k would represent about 5-7% dmg increase to most the single hit physical moves and similar to some of the magic ones I've looked at. So other stats might be more important. Though obviously non war types the tp bonus favors aymur more and the attack might matter

Like a lot of things it's situationally BiS. Roughly I'd except it to lose on magical and multihits. Either way you wouldn't feel like you are missing out without it

TP wins out above certain levels of pet MAB.
Aymur also has pet attack +80 which is quite significant.

If you are doing Ready moves that cost more than 1 charge, you will exceed 500 tp build up by a properly hasted pet during tp phase. you get more than 500 TP bonus from Aymur this way. I'll have to check how high I get w/ only a 10s gap between ready movies.

There is also the am3 to consider. Makes it alot easier to exceed 500 tp before next ready move, or to 5~6 step skillchain w/ pet. Whether master is engaged or not, Aymur is a big difference for Bst. It changes what you can do. Its BiS for Bst. Hands down. No real competition there.
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By clearlyamule 2017-03-14 16:31:26
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Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk said: »
clearlyamule said: »
Most of the time Aymur is really only going to be 500 tp bonus.

Using double alluvion, gifts and af3 hands with a war pet your pet is already at 2540 so boosting it to 3k would represent about 5-7% dmg increase to most the single hit physical moves and similar to some of the magic ones I've looked at. So other stats might be more important. Though obviously non war types the tp bonus favors aymur more and the attack might matter

Like a lot of things it's situationally BiS. Roughly I'd except it to lose on magical and multihits. Either way you wouldn't feel like you are missing out without it

TP wins out above certain levels of pet MAB.
Aymur also has pet attack +80 which is very significant, and there is also the Af3 to consider. Its BiS for that vast majority of pet dd work. Hands down. No real competition there.
Not sure what you mean by af3 as I already stated using it unless you mean swapping it out based on tp or something.


I kind of stated the rest. <.<. But fine I'll go into more detail since apparently wasn't clear enough.

Using Falkirk's average values on the bst compendium...

Let's start with magical and use Lizard. It has a base mab of 34 and his values assume 20/20 ready jp. 2k dmg was 3378 and 3k was 3832 so that'd put 2540tp at 3623 dmg and 2840tp at 3759 dmg.

Assuming 25 mab on that 200 tp axe the amount of gear mab you'd have to add for that extra 300 tp to start to win would be 532 not counting one of your axe slots. (3759*6.66 =25034 while 3623*6.91 =25034) So good luck with that


Now let's look at the multi hitters. For extra funsies let's Tickling Tendrils. 2k dmg is 3871 3k is 4384 so the 2540 and 2840 would be dmgs would be 4148 and 4301 dmg respectively.

Now that's per hit so gotta factor in number of hits. Would have to go back and not sure if he posted it or just told me but think Falkirk showed you can get 2 DA procs. While still using af3 hands should still be able to get 38 pet da with 1 axe and assuming full war traits that goes up 56. So average 6.12 hits vs 6.2 hits which would be average dmg of 25717 vs 26322 hey look I was slightly off Aymur wins by a nudge. Of course Sweeping Gouge wins by even smaller amount and the 3 charge ones for zerging aren't modified by tp at all.

And yes the attack can matter as I already stated. So can the extra acc. mathing both is rather annoying and requires a large amount of assumptions so Situational ***is situational and saying no competition is kind of silly unless you never use magical moves, never need more accuracy but somehow also never cap pdif or don't use multi hit moves or keep AM3 up
 Quetzalcoatl.Khajit
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By Quetzalcoatl.Khajit 2017-03-14 17:27:38
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clearlyamule said: »
Most of the time Aymur is really only going to be 500 tp bonus.

Using double alluvion, gifts and af3 hands with a war pet your pet is already at 2540 so boosting it to 3k would represent about 5-7% dmg increase to most the single hit physical moves and similar to some of the magic ones I've looked at. So other stats might be more important. Though obviously non war types the tp bonus favors aymur more and the attack might matter

Like a lot of things it's situationally BiS. Roughly I'd except it to lose on magical and multihits. Either way you wouldn't feel like you are missing out without it
You mean the af3 Hands that almost every half competent bst already has swap out automatically when the effective tp makes the hands not do anything in Falkirk's bst lua that everyone uses and as such should never be considered an issue by anyone competent enough to just edit their gearsets into a lua. Those AF3 hands?
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By clearlyamule 2017-03-14 19:34:03
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Quetzalcoatl.Khajit said: »
clearlyamule said: »
Most of the time Aymur is really only going to be 500 tp bonus.

Using double alluvion, gifts and af3 hands with a war pet your pet is already at 2540 so boosting it to 3k would represent about 5-7% dmg increase to most the single hit physical moves and similar to some of the magic ones I've looked at. So other stats might be more important. Though obviously non war types the tp bonus favors aymur more and the attack might matter

Like a lot of things it's situationally BiS. Roughly I'd except it to lose on magical and multihits. Either way you wouldn't feel like you are missing out without it
You mean the af3 Hands that almost every half competent bst already has swap out automatically when the effective tp makes the hands not do anything in Falkirk's bst lua that everyone uses and as such should never be considered an issue by anyone competent enough to just edit their gearsets into a lua. Those AF3 hands?
Yes those hands. Who ever said it was an issue though? Merely stated what your effective tp already is at without any tp without Aymur. By the same token I'd assume those same bsts to swap out any other tp bonus piece unless it's being used just for the other stats when said tp bonus does nothing like say Aymur itself.... I mean that is half the point of using programs like that.

Also addendum I messed up the math above and totally forgot about to factor out pet mab first. Brings the amount of MAB needed down to 530. And yes that can changed based on handswaps at certain tps though I hesitate to put exact ranges since it's also further complicated by the differences in alluvion vs valorous caps and potential to get int on the few that matters on and exactly how much mab you have and such

Anyways not saying it's not a good axe. It's great. But it's not like this be all end all thing. OP wanted to know what non mage he could level and not feel like he's missing out on having rema bst would be that job. Though would be fun to see the difference remas make to melees
 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2017-03-14 20:24:25
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Sylph.Traxus said: »
H2h RMEAs are pretty shitty for doing pet things on pup.
Jadey said: »
For 95% of what PUP does Kenkonken is at best a macro piece to avoid Overload.

They're shitty for doing pet things, but MEA are still easily your top 3 actual DD H2H options for PUP when you're actually punching things. And remember that Kenkonken in particular is still extremely useful for DD puppets if the situation allows for the master to maintain AM3, since the OA2-3x applies to both master and puppet. In most situations, that's a pretty big increase in pet DPS over non-RMEA pet-focused options.

Though, yeah, for one of PUP's most valuable endgame purposes (pet tanking) you are better off with non-RMEA.

Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
Depends on how deep into this you want to get. Offhands? Alternative skillchain options and damage types? Utility swaps?

Offhands is interesting. THF DNC BLU all generally have ideal sets with an offhand DEX+50 Empy that adds a bunch to acc/WS/crit. NIN is an exception from that thinking, since the AGI+50 on Kannagi is not helpful for DD purposes aside from boosting a generally inferior WS in Blade: Hi. So, NIN would use RMEA mainhand, and non-RMEA offhand.

Perhaps a more useful question is which melee DD jobs suffer LESS from lacking a RMEA. And that's gonna be the dual wield/H2H melee jobs. Don't get me wrong, for MNK THF NIN DNC BLU PUP you're still worse off using the next best non-RMEA alternative than you would be with a RMEA. But comparatively, you're operating closer to potential than a 2-hander with a non-RMEA would be.

Of all those, acting in a DD capacity (i.e. not including a tanking PUP): I'd put MNK as the closest to RMEA level without having an RMEA. Using one of the top non-RMEAs like a well augmented pair of Condemners or Comeuppances+1 is still a gap, but it's not even close to the massive gulf between like... Reisenjima GK and a SAM RMEA. BLU can also still do a good job of holding its own without RMEA thanks to pretty strong alternatives (Tanmoyagi+1/Colada) - but I'm certainly not claiming it beats MEA weapons.

RUN might also warrant consideration as a job that can function at a very high level without RMEA? For it's primary role as a tank, Aeonic is nice, but the JSE weapon is also really good and actually BETTER in some tanking respects (Meva focus as opposed to PDT- II on Ergon, and RUN is often best employed on more magic-focused targets anyway). For adding melee damage, it's clear that Aeonic and Mythic are excellent and will blow away other DPS choices, but that's not really the job's primary role. Though it's nice for the tank to be able to switch over and put out some good damage when desired.
 Leviathan.Sidra
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By Leviathan.Sidra 2017-03-14 21:06:38
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For the DPS jobs, given the consistency of how the AM's work, a non REMA is never going to be BIS. However, I think it is quite possible to build a high powered DD that performs well in all of the games's content without them.

Jobs get so much DPS from Mastery via the JP spend and Gifts that by the time you are mastered it's a massive difference from a 0 JP version of the same job. Gear keeps getting stronger and stronger - look at Omen gear versus prior options. If you give a job the tlc it needs in all areas (JP, strong TP sets, strong sets for each weaponskill, useful JA JSE Specific pieces) and just skip the REMA weapon and replace it with one of the best non REMA (Taming Sari, Lembing, Montante, Gridarvor etc.) you will do a lot of damage. And there are tons of REMA using players out there with pretty big holes in their gearsets you will out damage building this way.

You won't be BiS, and you wouldn't outparse the same version of yourself + a REMA. But you would be strong enough to be a powerful DPS and contributor in success in all of the game's content.

As long as you find that fulfilling, go for it. But if you are the type of player who'd be going crazy because you know you could be doing a little more, or hate knowing that someone out might be out dps'ing you it's probably not a good idea to even start it.
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 Lakshmi.Buukki
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By Lakshmi.Buukki 2017-03-14 22:24:16
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Montante is ***. Always has been, always will be. But Zulfiqar with the right augments can give Resolution a run for it's money.
 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-03-14 22:51:24
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Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
Depends on how deep into this you want to get. Offhands? Alternative skillchain options and damage types? Utility swaps?

Basically asking if there are any jobs I can 2100 without feeling like I'm missing out by not having REMA for it.

Most DD can get by with augmented Resienjima weapons just fine. The REMA's are the best weapons but the gap between a well augmented T2 weapon and a REMA is much smaller then in previous meta.
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By Afania 2017-03-14 23:15:57
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Perhaps a more useful question is which melee DD jobs suffer LESS from lacking a RMEA.


Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Montante is ***. Always has been, always will be. But Zulfiqar with the right augments can give Resolution a run for it's money.

If you trust spreadsheet then the answer is here:

Using Ejiin's set:
TP:
ItemSet 349896
QA+3 on all reisen gears*

WS:
ItemSet 322221

SAM roll, capped haste/attack/acc, same sets across all weapons, 2100 jp, no mighty strike:

Ragnarok:


D+15 STR 15 DA+4 Zulfiqar:


Montante +1:
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-03-15 03:43:32
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
Depends on how deep into this you want to get. Offhands? Alternative skillchain options and damage types? Utility swaps?

Basically asking if there are any jobs I can 2100 without feeling like I'm missing out by not having REMA for it.

Most DD can get by with augmented Resienjima weapons just fine. The REMA's are the best weapons but the gap between a well augmented T2 weapon and a REMA is much smaller then in previous meta.
I completely agree and I personally find in that regard the game is more balanced now than it has been in the past.
I would answer the same way as Saevel to a returning player, or an average guy who doesn't have an organized group to do end game content like Aeonic NMs.
For a player like that the options would be to either work months to complete a RME of choice and do basically nothing else but farm for that, or to ride on a "normal" weapon and enjoy the surplus time doing other things.

But here we're talking about Ladyofhonor, he has an organized group/friends, he can kill Aeonic NMs no problem.
In a situation like this why even bother? Aeonic weapons are "free" legendary weapons basically, and for a lot of DDs they range from "decent" to "awesome" and they're tipically better than non RMEA options :x

So again, I don't get the "which job can I get to 2100 without having to bother to get RMEA for?" question, when Lady could simply get an Aeonic and call it a day (unless he wants to level one of those DD jobs where the Aeonic is complete crap but there's only a couple of those?)
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 Lakshmi.Miang
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By Lakshmi.Miang 2017-03-15 03:52:50
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Afania said: »
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Perhaps a more useful question is which melee DD jobs suffer LESS from lacking a RMEA.


Lakshmi.Buukki said: »
Montante is ***. Always has been, always will be. But Zulfiqar with the right augments can give Resolution a run for it's money.

If you trust spreadsheet then the answer is here:

Using Ejiin's set:
TP:
ItemSet 349896
QA+3 on all reisen gears*

WS:
ItemSet 322221

SAM roll, capped haste/attack/acc, same sets across all weapons, 2100 jp, no mighty strike:

Ragnarok:


D+15 STR 15 DA+4 Zulfiqar:


Montante +1:


Never looked at a warrior spreadsheet, but are you sure the relic proc rate formula was updated with the name 'Ragnarok 121'?
 Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk
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By Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk 2017-03-15 05:38:51
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Was typo. Meant am3
Aftermath level 3
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By Afania 2017-03-15 22:48:15
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Quetzalcoatl.Xilkk said: »
Was typo. Meant am3
Aftermath level 3


I can't seem to find the toggle on spreadsheet, so I don't think it it was on. Relic proc rate should be on since rag has at least 100+ dps higher than another weapon with exact same stats.

After manually adding crit hit +10% AM3 I'm getting 7172 dps.
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By Fenrir.Snaps 2017-03-16 01:44:55
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Should note that for Doji SAM with a 3 hit build and I think even 4 hit build, the DPS spreadsheet predicted a white damage/ws damage ratio that was over 2x what we observed on Neak farming for like an hour or so and on our last WoC. I think that for 2 handers there is something not quite right with the modeling, white damage is being over represented. I wouldn't be surprised if Montante +1 outperforms Ragnarok in most situations. Accuracy is less important and 3 hit builds become much more viable.
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