DPS Add-on Development

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DPS Add-on development
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By Blazed1979 2016-07-30 06:34:40
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Anyone out there willing to develop either a stand-alone app or a windower add-on that would basically do what the dps spreadsheet does, but for all jobs in one location and would be updated with current foods/gear and allow for updates at intervals?

If anyone has the skills to do it and wants to make some money send me a PM. I'd pay for its development and would be open to everyone to use. So no strings attached, everyone wins.
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 Odin.Lygre
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By Odin.Lygre 2016-07-30 11:41:36
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Blazed1979 said: »
but for all jobs in one location and would be updated with current foods/gear and allow for updates at intervals?
I may just be high, but could you elaborate/clarify?
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By Selindrile 2016-07-30 12:00:40
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Very generous of you Blazed to offer money for someone to create such a useful community tool.
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 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2016-07-30 12:32:18
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Developing it as an add-on wouldn't make much sense, functionally speaking. One of the strengths of the spreadsheets is the sheer volume of information they provide, which allows them to answer much more useful and interesting questions than "Which of these items does marginally more damage in an arbitrary scenario?". You could recreate that functionality in a standalone app, but that's a lot of work to basically reinvent the wheel.

There are a few small improvements one could make by transitioning to simulation over statistical modeling, mostly as it relates to accurately resolving certain edge case scenarios. On the other hand, there are some benefits to the spreadsheets in terms of mechanical visibility, both for users and debugging/improvement.

If someone does pick this up then awesome, otherwise... I do plan on taking on more spreadsheets at some point. I don't have a timeline for that right now, but eventually I'd like to get them all up to date for gear, mechanics, and new features like skillchain calculations.
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By Blazed1979 2016-07-30 12:35:22
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Odin.Lygre said: »
I may just be high, but could you elaborate/clarify?

An app that allows people to build custom gear sets for different jobs and weapon skills and shows the output in value.

Think of like an altana model viewer but for dps values.

It shouldn't be that hard since there are so many spreadsheets floating around with info there already.

Drop down menus for each gear slot that has all items in game.
Drop down menu for all job 2nd pt buffs in game
Drop down menu for all debuffs in game
drop down menu for food effects
drop down menu for zone effects such as ionis
All of the above different options represented in real time (so no need for a "calculate" button.

Edit: and whatever night said - I don't understand the technical stuff. I'm a marketeer recognizing a need for an app. I'm looking for the engineers and designers who can deliver it.
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By Verda 2016-07-30 12:40:35
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I agree with nightfyre, though the reason I think he wants it is that spreadsheets are a bit hard to get into and understand unless you already used excel before. I think maybe a guide on how to use them would help people a lot and be much cheaper. To do an app like this right could take 80+ hours of work especially for so much jobs and even getting all the gear into a database properly is a huge task in itself, and it's a scope creep nightmare, the requirements seems small but the more you get into it the larger the task is apparent to be. I wish you luck but I think community time is better spent just actually getting the spreadsheets up to date in the first place, or testing things we don't actually understand, rather than making spreadsheet functionality more user friendly to first time users.
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By Blazed1979 2016-07-30 12:42:16
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I have received one PM from someone who does this for a living, he estimated it to be 80 hours worth of work. If he had the time he would do it but doesn't and no amount of money is going to get him to kill himself for this.

Anyone else interested, the initial offer is 1k USD to get the ball rolling. As I'm not an expert on the technicalities I'd like to negotiate publicly here on what is fair as I know a few on these forums do know about this stuff. I'll pay what is fair and then some.

1,000 USD doesn't seem like much for 80 hours worth of work. My cap is double that. 2,000 USD is what I might pay one of my junior employees or contractors for 2 weeks worth of work. If people think that is too little, please inform me.
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By Blazed1979 2016-07-30 12:45:53
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Verda said: »
scope creep nightmare
Indeed. but I think with the community establishing the SoW we could minimize that greatly.
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By Verda 2016-07-30 12:56:13
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Blazed1979 said: »
Verda said: »
scope creep nightmare
Indeed. but I think with the community establishing the SoW we could minimize that greatly.

Ya that'd help, I wish you luck, I like your motivation.
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2016-07-30 13:02:41
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80 hours might be a bit low for a fully up-to-date app. It sounds about right for getting to where the updated spreadsheets are currently at, but there are various things that will require in-game testing in the process of further development and of course there's the prospect of ongoing maintenance afterwards due to new gear, changing content/mechanics, etc.

Not to hijack, but I'm going to float a question here on the suggestion of a friend: if I set up a Patreon page on which people could donate towards various community resources (spreadsheets and a user guide for them, mechanics testing, etc), would anyone here (Blazed or otherwise) be sufficiently interested in that option? I obviously don't mind contributing (albeit somewhat slowly) for free and I'm not sure how I feel about the idea anyway, but I can't deny that additional income would allow me to free up more time for XI stuff.
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By Blazed1979 2016-07-30 13:11:00
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No prob with me. I'd gladly support worthwhile projects and the continued unofficial support of this game and all its peripherals.
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By Selindrile 2016-07-30 13:18:09
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I know the reason it appealed to me as a non-spreadsheet is because handling that volume of data on a spreadsheet has never seemed to work well for me on my computers, one change and I seem to have to wait a long time for all the fields to update, and it often goes unresponsive, or I mistype because it's going so slow, or it crashes.

I'm not sure if it could be improved as an application over a spreadsheet, but I know the spreadsheet has never worked well from a usability perspective, for me.

Also I'm pretty low on funding, though I think the Patreon is a good idea, I'd be happy to donate some time toward such things, if you need menial things like data checking and entry, formatting, testing, etc.

I'm not really really super ambitious on coding, I managed to write a couple simple addons, and have worked on updating/expanding on Mote's gearswaps, but that's really the extent of my coding ability.
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By Verda 2016-07-30 13:41:51
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Ya 80+, it's a ballpark anyway, could be way off :P Good luck whichever way it goes ^^
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By Afania 2016-07-30 14:10:21
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Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
Developing it as an add-on wouldn't make much sense, functionally speaking. One of the strengths of the spreadsheets is the sheer volume of information they provide, which allows them to answer much more useful and interesting questions than "Which of these items does marginally more damage in an arbitrary scenario?". You could recreate that functionality in a standalone app, but that's a lot of work to basically reinvent the wheel.

There are a few small improvements one could make by transitioning to simulation over statistical modeling, mostly as it relates to accurately resolving certain edge case scenarios. On the other hand, there are some benefits to the spreadsheets in terms of mechanical visibility, both for users and debugging/improvement.

If someone does pick this up then awesome, otherwise... I do plan on taking on more spreadsheets at some point. I don't have a timeline for that right now, but eventually I'd like to get them all up to date for gear, mechanics, and new features like skillchain calculations.

Yes but it'd be great to have an app with better user interface than excel, plus up to date formula and monster info. I always find spreadaheet hard to use because adding gears is pain in the *** with excel. Not to mention half of the spreadsheet currently don't have updated pdif value.


That being said, I see it being a lot of work especially if implementing functions to import augmented gears. If we can have an app that allows us import augmented gears easily, calculating optimal DD sets would be a lot easier.

Adding augmented gears being a headache is one major reason why all of my DD sets haven't been optimized for months. I would rather spend hours playing this game instead of spending hours trying to add another herc gears with random augment on spreadsheet for 3% increase in dps.
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By Afania 2016-07-30 14:18:08
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Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
80 hours might be a bit low for a fully up-to-date app. It sounds about right for getting to where the updated spreadsheets are currently at, but there are various things that will require in-game testing in the process of further development and of course there's the prospect of ongoing maintenance afterwards due to new gear, changing content/mechanics, etc.

Not to hijack, but I'm going to float a question here on the suggestion of a friend: if I set up a Patreon page on which people could donate towards various community resources (spreadsheets and a user guide for them, mechanics testing, etc), would anyone here (Blazed or otherwise) be sufficiently interested in that option? I obviously don't mind contributing (albeit somewhat slowly) for free and I'm not sure how I feel about the idea anyway, but I can't deny that additional income would allow me to free up more time for XI stuff.


That sounds like a very good idea, since it allows user to choose what they need. Same probably applies to dps calculator app, personally I would like functions to import random aug gears easiy more than just calculating dps on X and Y jobs. And it'd be great if we as users, have a way to provide user feedback.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2016-07-30 14:28:25
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I think the only issue (and one of the main reasons, aside from morality, that I never asked for money when I still contributed to the community actively) is that SE can see that as profiting off of their property and shut you down with a C&D.

Let's not sugar coat it, anyone who contributes in any meaningful way to the community (particularly Windower devs or those who make user-access tools like spreadsheets) put in an enormous amount of work, and that takes a lot of time and knowledge. Generally speaking, these talents are things people would normally be paid wages for to do as an actual job. A lot of times, both when I still contributed and now, I see people attempting to belittle or downgrade these efforts with "their opinions". Sometimes these opinions are logical and posses a modicum of thought and usefulness to them, but other times they're simply ridiculous or make no sense from a mathematical or logical perspective. To the latter I say this: when you put in the hundreds of hours necessary to catalog the math behind the game via grueling, time consuming, boring tests and then compile it into a form that the average reader can understand and use for themselves, when you apply that effort to something more than just "I'm right because I said so", that's when you're allowed to talk.

Being paid for that work isn't a bad thing in general, however SE does own the IP, and they have struck people down for less. Caution is advised.

Anyway, bit of a ranty hijack there I guess, but this felt like a good time to say it. In any case I would contribute to a Patreon/whatever if I have the extra $, just be careful about it.
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By Blazed1979 2016-07-30 15:18:39
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legal stuff noted.
No one would profit from this project. All it would be is an interpretation of values to help guide players when gearing.
Much the ffxiclopedia and bg wiki pages.
that's all.
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2016-07-30 15:29:19
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Whether or not SE would win such a lawsuit is secondary to their ability to win a war of attrition in the courtroom. They have more incentive and ability to defend their IP beyond all reason than any of us do to throw thousands of dollars away on lawyers in a head to head contest. That's just the unfortunate reality of modern law.

Regarding a potential app from myself, I'm not opposed to it but I'm also not a particularly proficient programmer. Given the specifics involved, particularly as they pertain to UI and expanded functionality, I'd feel more comfortable having a full suite of functional and up to date sheets before diverting my attention towards a brand new project. So not out of the question, but certainly a ways off in the future unless someone else is inclined to pick up the torch.
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By Rooks 2016-07-30 17:29:06
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I had plans for something similar using the item sets functionality on the site, but there are the following problems:

- lack of time
- the obnoxiousness of things like augmented gear
- any reasonable amount of control over the inputs quickly turns into a UI/UX nightmare

If someone got me the formulas, then maybe it's not totally insane, but it's a couple of man-weeks of work, minimum, and I don't have anything resembling that kind of time unless I decide to retire.

The specific things that would need addressed to make this work with AH's item sets are:

- augmented gear (I know how I would do this, but it's a fair amount of work to actually do)
- the actual calculation page (say hello to lots and lots of <select> elements)
- writing a library to handle the calculations (after getting the formulas from someone, Nightfyre I would assume?)

None of those are small tasks, but maybe I'll take a crack at it after I figure out what's left to fix with organizer and finish blowing up the P+R section for good.
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 Ragnarok.Zeig
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By Ragnarok.Zeig 2016-07-30 17:55:08
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Rooks said: »
finish blowing up the P+R section for good
Lol'd
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 Ragnarok.Flippant
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By Ragnarok.Flippant 2016-07-30 18:09:31
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I had in mind an idea to make a website for DPS spreadsheets (and made sort of a working foundation for it as an assignment for a database class). The most beneficial part would be that the viewer could set their buffs/monster/merits/etc., and then view other peoples' saved gear profiles (or their own) and resulting dps to find the most optimal for their scenario. But I also was not ready to commit to all the formula work. I'm up to handle anything but that if people are interested.

Doing it as an addon though...sounds impractical and of little-to-no benefit.
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By Selindrile 2016-07-30 20:50:18
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Yeah, I can see the concept of doing it as an addon, but the impracticality probably overwrites it. Heck I can see why it's done on spreadsheets, and if my computer ran them better I wouldn't blink a second time at the suggestion to change them. Considering how much of a problem I have with them crashing/lagging it out though, re-creating the functionality in something that's more reliable sounds appealing.

I wouldn't know really where to begin with such a thing, and am not motivated enough to pioneer it, but would be happy to put in time to support such an endeavor, if I can help.
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 Fenrir.Nightfyre
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2016-07-30 22:25:41
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I'm definitely down to handle the mathematical side of things (+gear, augments, stat bonuses, etc) if either of you are up for coding it all.
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By Miang 2016-07-31 04:39:42
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I've also considered writing a website for this a few times. If I had help with the algorithms behind the calculations in the spreadsheet then the UI/XI and database part of the website isn't very hard. I had previously written a spellcast XML generator website a few years ago which had scripts to import the latest FFXI .dats, so that side is more or less done (although I'd probably use the windower resource luas now). I have 2 weeks holiday starting tomorrow so I might give this a shot, see how far I get.
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By maldini 2016-07-31 04:49:28
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Looks like the skillset and motivation is there but reading this thread looks like you guys could use a coordinator and focal point for communication. Someone to assign roles and work flows.

I'm excited for this. Although Blazed stole the idea from me. I said this many years ago. But its ok, I'm used to him getting credit for my ideas. XD
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By Blazed1979 2016-07-31 05:55:53
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***. Get back on your camel.
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By Rooks 2016-07-31 08:05:33
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maldini said: »
Looks like the skillset and motivation is there but reading this thread looks like you guys could use a coordinator and focal point for communication. Someone to assign roles and work flows.

I'm excited for this. Although Blazed stole the idea from me. I said this many years ago. But its ok, I'm used to him getting credit for my ideas. XD

For me, the barrier to anything is always time.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2016-07-31 08:12:26
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Rooks said: »
finish blowing up the P+R section for good.
Man, and I used to think you were cool.

Way to kill the buzz man!
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By Bismarck.Snprphnx 2016-07-31 11:22:22
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Didn't someone make this a while back? I think it only covered melee jobs, but I vaguely remember seeing a spreadsheet with a blue colored background that you could edit gear, buffs, food, etc etc.
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