BREXIT Just Happened...

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BREXIT Just happened...
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By Odinz 2016-06-27 15:23:24
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Ramyrez said: »
Odinz said: »
European superstate - I wonder what Mother Russia will think of that. They have a history of just watching their neighbours to the west do that kind of thing.

Yes, well, they were engaged in the very same thing at the time as well, more or less...

Didn't turn out too well for them, or anyone else.
By volkom 2016-06-27 15:26:52
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
The fact that americans of all people can't see the parallel is saddening. I swear if the USA tried to form today they'd be against.
What? 13 separate governing states that were mostly all English forming 1 country vs 28 countries with their own language and culture etc to form 1 super country. Iono to me that's like comparing apples to oranges
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By Ramyrez 2016-06-27 15:27:07
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Ramyrez said: »
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
The fact that americans of all people can't see the parallel is saddening. I swear if the USA tried to form today they'd be against.

Yeah, a lot of people would be. Look at how many "states' rights" advocates there are just on this forum.

The fact the U.S. managed to form at all -- even back then! -- is kinda impressive.

Advocating states' rights is in no way anti-American government. It is simply a realization of the relationship that the national government is supposed to have with the states, as was understood by the founders. Comparing the EU to the relationship the states have with the US government shows a strong lack of comprehension. Don't even pull that crap just to take shots at Conservatives.

Rav, you're sort of hurting your own argument here, insulating yourself from perceived attacks that aren't even there.

Theoretical history is really not something of which I'm a fan because it supposes to many things to be even remotely tenable. But pretend for a moment we somehow got to approximately the mid-20th century without forming as a nation and were forty-some (at the time) odd states and a few territories, etc.

Do you think said states in that time frame would acquiesce to a unification and one central governing body?

You can say states rights advocates are not pertinent to the discussion by suggesting things about the founding fathers' thought processes, but the bottom line is that people wanting to minimize the role of the federal government is really not very different at all from people who support states' rights for the sake of states being allowed to legislate things that the federal government refuses to for the sake of freedoms.
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By Odinz 2016-06-27 15:32:03
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Ramyrez said: »
states being allowed to legislate things that the federal government refuses to for the sake of freedoms.
Marry Jane
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2016-06-27 15:38:17
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Ramyrez said: »
Theoretical history is really not something of which I'm a fan because it supposes to many things to be even remotely tenable. But pretend for a moment we somehow got to approximately the mid-20th century without forming as a nation and were forty-some (at the time) odd states and a few territories, etc.

Do you think said states in that time frame would acquiesce to a unification and one central governing body?

You're right, such a conversation isn't tenable. The country would have formed completely differently and politics wouldn't be remotely what they are today. The thought process (and the snipe at states' rights) is an exercise in futility.
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By Ramyrez 2016-06-27 16:39:05
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Ramyrez said: »
Theoretical history is really not something of which I'm a fan because it supposes to many things to be even remotely tenable. But pretend for a moment we somehow got to approximately the mid-20th century without forming as a nation and were forty-some (at the time) odd states and a few territories, etc.

Do you think said states in that time frame would acquiesce to a unification and one central governing body?

You're right, such a conversation isn't tenable. The country would have formed completely differently and politics wouldn't be remotely what they are today. The thought process (and the snipe at states' rights) is an exercise in futility.

"States rights" is a *** label from the get go. "States rights" is a bunch of conservatives trying to push at a state level what they can't get the federal government to put through. Abortion bills, limitations on public health and welfare, and similar nonsense.

It has nothing to do with "rights," it's a bunch of conservatives who think they're clever and no one recognizes what's going on.

The marijuana laws are the one place where anything close to liberal wins on a state level, and even that is questionable. Legalization of marijuana benefits conservatives every bit as much because it creates a new area of enterprise for the private sector. You've just got some stick-in-the-muds who want to pretend there's a difference between alcohol and marijuana from a regulation perspective.
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By Pwolf Drkgawd 2016-06-27 17:02:43
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volkom said: »
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
The fact that americans of all people can't see the parallel is saddening. I swear if the USA tried to form today they'd be against.
What? 13 separate governing states that were mostly all English forming 1 country vs 28 countries with their own language and culture etc to form 1 super country. Iono to me that's like comparing apples to oranges

Also realize that when the colonies did form there were only 2.5 million people. It was also after they fought together to fend off Both the French and the Natives. And then didn't fully form until after they started fighting the British for independence.
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By Sylph.Frenchman 2016-06-27 17:04:36
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volkom said: »
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
The fact that americans of all people can't see the parallel is saddening. I swear if the USA tried to form today they'd be against.
What? 13 separate governing states that were mostly all English forming 1 country vs 28 countries with their own language and culture etc to form 1 super country. Iono to me that's like comparing apples to oranges


i don't see your point.

Apple/Orange = fruits? :D
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2016-06-27 17:30:33
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Ramyrez said: »
"States rights" is a *** label from the get go. "States rights" is a bunch of conservatives trying to push at a state level what they can't get the federal government to put through. Abortion bills, limitations on public health and welfare, and similar nonsense.

Even if I don't always agree with you, I usually at least see your angle. This is such a shallow and biased interpretation of states' rights that I'm just going to call you flat-out wrong. Not to mention the fact that liberal states also enact a ton of legislation that would never fly nationally, and I support thembecause they should have the right to do it. I say we let them enact stupid gun laws, stupid soda laws, stupid energy laws, stupid taxes, etc. so that they don't feel the need to force their stupidity on the rest of us.
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By Sylph.Shadowlina 2016-06-27 17:37:24
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To Summarize today:

Quote:
David Cameron made a statement to the Commons, saying the government has a "fundamental responsibility to bring our country together" after the EU referendum

Allies of Jeremy Corbyn have said he will not resign despite facing a mass walkout from his shadow cabinet and a vote of confidence in his leadership

The new leader of the Conservatives should be in place by 2 September, the executive of the party's influential 1922 committee of MPs has suggested

The European Union will not hold informal talks with the UK until it triggers Article 50 to leave, Germany, France and Italy have insisted
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By Shiva.Nikolce 2016-06-27 18:30:00
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Ramyrez said: »
States rights

C'mon fellas let the brits have one fricken thread without making it about murica
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By Ramyrez 2016-06-27 19:05:35
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Shiva.Nikolce said: »
Ramyrez said: »
States rights

C'mon fellas let the brits have one fricken thread without making it about murica

The Brits brought it up!

Or, well, Seha did maybe?

SOMEONE NOT 'MURRICAN
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By Ramyrez 2016-06-27 19:07:02
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Ramyrez said: »
"States rights" is a *** label from the get go. "States rights" is a bunch of conservatives trying to push at a state level what they can't get the federal government to put through. Abortion bills, limitations on public health and welfare, and similar nonsense.

Even if I don't always agree with you, I usually at least see your angle. This is such a shallow and biased interpretation of states' rights that I'm just going to call you flat-out wrong. Not to mention the fact that liberal states also enact a ton of legislation that would never fly nationally, and I support thembecause they should have the right to do it. I say we let them enact stupid gun laws, stupid soda laws, stupid energy laws, stupid taxes, etc. so that they don't feel the need to force their stupidity on the rest of us.

Well, I won't keep shitting up this thread with it, but going to disagree with you. Whatever the complete opposite of a states rights advocate is, that's me. State governments are almost universally ***across the board.

/donewithithere
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By Garuda.Chanti 2016-06-27 23:12:31
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Just to put this mater to rest.

The 10th amendment was the first one we lost. It was taken from us by the first Republican president during a totally misnamed "civil" war.

So, pivoting back to GB and the EU....

Trump promises to do to America what the brexit has done for GB.
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By Phoenix.Amandarius 2016-06-28 00:19:43
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For a thousand years nations have warred to take over all of Europe. Generation after generation the struggle has taken on many forms, all with the same goal. Germany figured out a way to do it without firing a single shot. Good for Great Britain for wising up.
By volkom 2016-06-28 00:32:35
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Well if EU superstate is a thing then maybe America can stop being the world police and EU can defend itself then if Russia attacks. Can dissolve nato and we can put dollars into our crappy infrastructure and other systems
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By Odinz 2016-06-28 00:59:42
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volkom said: »
Well if EU superstate is a thing then maybe America can stop being the world police and EU can defend itself then if Russia attacks. Can dissolve nato and we can put dollars into our crappy infrastructure and other systems

Russia and China are too ambitious for the US to ever be able to retract from its geopolitical positions.

The route to world peace and stability is:

-EU and North Africa to form a trade/development agreement
-Turkey to be the capital of an EU/ME block for trade and politics
-Turkey, Middle east and Iran to form another block similar to the EU
-Russia and China to form a block
-Japan, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Thailand to form another block
-US needs to sort out its relationship with South America
-Africa needs to get sorted by everyone so I can go and visit this Prince that keeps calling me and telling me I am his long lost relative. He owes me 100 Euros too.
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By Bahamut.Kara 2016-06-28 01:01:47
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Sylph.Katsuras said: »
Now go check the Euro dollar, see how that is doing by comparison. Brexit hurt the Euro far worse than it hurt the pound.

Current value of the pound = $1.3192
Current value of the Euro = $1.1016

Almost all the currencies of the world have taken a beating from this, this is not a sole issue for the pound. That is why all the other nations are working to help Britain come through from this.

Remember how Obama said the UK would be put to the back of the queue in regards to trade deals? That went right out the window almost immediately, you know why? because they can't afford to let the UK go down. It would damage them too.

http://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/683117/US-and-Canada-lead-promises-to-maintain-trade-relations-with-Britain-outside-the-EU

The prices of currency are based on buying and selling from traders, these number fluctuate all the time and the current low figures are based purely on the fear of buyers and sellers. Once the leadership of the UK start sorting out trade deals and all the other issues prices will recover. The world and the UK won't burn from it gaining independence from a union it never really wanted to be part of anyway. The UK, like it or not is far too important to the financial world for it ever to be allowed to be seriously damaged.

Even German and France who may hate the UK right now cannot let it be damaged because we are one of their major customers for imports.

I know some of you are salivating at the prospect of your great I TOLD YOU SO post but it simply will not be allowed to happen by the major powers of the western world, due to self interest alone.

Orz, no the euro did not end up worse than the british pound.

British pound:
23/06: 1.50
28/06: 1.33
Change: -17

Euro:
23/06: 1.14
28/06: 1.106
Change: -4

Forex markets have relatively low volatility for stable countries especially compared to emerging markets. This was a very significant drop to the british pound.
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By Bahamut.Kara 2016-06-28 01:04:31
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Meh, Mil already addressed the above.

This is what happens when I don't backread fully before responding
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By Odinz 2016-06-28 01:08:23
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Phoenix.Amandarius said: »
For a thousand years nations have warred to take over all of Europe. Generation after generation the struggle has taken on many forms, all with the same goal. Germany figured out a way to do it without firing a single shot. Good for Great Britain for wising up.

War and gain - what is wrong with Germany seeking to lead the Europeans towards financial, economic, political and social stability.
Germany isn't the US, and neither is Europe. I would take German ambitions for the world over US ambitions any day.
You speak of Germany and Europe's civilizations as though they are unique in history.

Coming from an American I can't help but be amused at the irony.
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By Bahamut.Kara 2016-06-28 01:44:08
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Sylph.Katsuras said: »
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Sylph.Katsuras said: »
they were waiting to unleash their plans
Again, you guys speak as if those of us who are pro-EU should be somehow shocked or taken back by this.

This is what we want lol.

Then you should be glad the UK left and wish them the best, because they were the biggest stumbling block that the EU had to their plans of the EU super state and dissoloution of member nations.

Poland however, not so happy.

Germany and France are now going to take charge of the superstate, due to being the most powerful remaining members. I for one welcome your Franco-German overlords.

Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Sylph.Katsuras said: »
they were waiting to unleash their plans
Again, you guys speak as if those of us who are pro-EU should be somehow shocked or taken back by this.

This is what we want lol.

The point was, the UK absolutely did not want this (nor do quite a few other nations) as shown by them voting against the Euro and schengen. So any uk voters who may of been second guessing, now you know what you voted out of. Not carrying on as you were but aggressive closer integration, until our nation would of been dissolved into the super state.

No thank you! This would of been our last chance and we took it, thank god.

That article you linked is questionable at best.

Talk of a European Superstate or United States of Europe or European Federation has been around for over hundred years.

Hell, in 1946 Winston Churchill said:
Quote:
“Among the victors there is a babel of jarring voices; among the vanquished the sullen silence of despair.

That is all that Europeans, grouped in so many ancient States and nations, that is all that the Germanic Powers have got by tearing each other to pieces and spreading havoc far and wide.

Indeed, but for the fact that the great Republic across the Atlantic Ocean has at length realised that the ruin or enslavement of Europe would involve their own fate as well, and has stretched out hands of succour and guidance, the Dark Ages would have returned in all their cruelty and squalor.

They may still return.

Yet all the while there is a remedy which, if it were generally and spontaneously adopted, would as if by a miracle transform the whole scene, and would in a few years make all Europe, or the greater part of it, as free and as happy as Switzerland is today.

What is this sovereign remedy?

It is to re-create the European Family, or as much of it as we can, and provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom.

We must build a kind of United States of Europe.

In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living."
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2016-06-28 03:43:40
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Phoenix.Amandarius said: »
For a thousand years nations have warred to take over all of Europe. Generation after generation the struggle has taken on many forms, all with the same goal. Germany figured out a way to do it without firing a single shot. Good for Great Britain for wising up.
Might as well posted a pic of Merkel with Hitler's mustache.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Eradius 2016-06-28 05:57:57
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Phoenix.Amandarius said: »
For a thousand years nations have warred to take over all of Europe. Generation after generation the struggle has taken on many forms, all with the same goal. Germany figured out a way to do it without firing a single shot. Good for Great Britain for wising up.
Might as well posted a pic of Merkel with Hitler's mustache.

Germany ruined everything once, so the world spanked them. Then they did it again cause they were mad and got a double spanking and room-divider. Then we asked them to please chill out. They decided to take our advice and chill out immediately. Then chill out HARDER, and get NICER, and NICER. Until they were TOO NICE for everyones own good!

Maybe this time we should just ask them to work hard at being lazy. They'll replace video games and anime somehow within 30 years I bet.
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By Ruaumoko 2016-06-28 06:34:14
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Cameron has still not invoked Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty despite screams from the right wing in the UK for him to do so.

He's not going to though, they can scream all they want but he won't. He is instilling a huge case of buyer's remorse in those who voted to leave by making them watch the fallout of their vote. He's doing this so that the public, upon seeing how bad things have gotten and seeing the potential for things to get worse, will not riot/protest as much as they could if the referendum gets put to parliament and gets vetoed.

It's a very effective Machiavellian strategy but in his eyes, and in many others eyes, the end will justify the means.

You've not heard the last of this. This will be settled in spectacular fashion in October.
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By Grumpy Cat 2016-06-28 06:34:55
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YouTube Video Placeholder
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By Siren.Lordgrim 2016-06-28 07:31:13
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Quetzalcoatl.Eradius said: »
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
Phoenix.Amandarius said: »
For a thousand years nations have warred to take over all of Europe. Generation after generation the struggle has taken on many forms, all with the same goal. Germany figured out a way to do it without firing a single shot. Good for Great Britain for wising up.
Might as well posted a pic of Merkel with Hitler's mustache.

Germany ruined everything once, so the world spanked them. Then they did it again cause they were mad and got a double spanking and room-divider. Then we asked them to please chill out. They decided to take our advice and chill out immediately. Then chill out HARDER, and get NICER, and NICER. Until they were TOO NICE for everyones own good!

Maybe this time we should just ask them to work hard at being lazy. They'll replace video games and anime somehow within 30 years I bet.

My friend Germany did not start World War 1, Britain felt threatened to the exploding economy of Germany it was eclipsing Britain's economy.

The dishonor of starting world war 1 belongs solely to Serbia and Austria
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By Bahamut.Kara 2016-06-28 07:57:16
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Quote:
In a speech to the Bundestag, Merkel said negotiations over Britain’s post-EU future would not be a “cherry-picking exercise”. To applause, she warned that the UK government should be under no illusions over the decisions that would be made.

“We will make sure that negotiations will not be carried out as a cherry-picking exercise. There must be and there will be a palpable difference between those countries who want to be members of the European family and those who don’t,” she said.


Writing in the Daily Telegraph on Monday, Johnson had suggested the UK might “take back democratic control of immigration” while continuing to enjoy free market access. Merkel’s comments – echoed on Tuesday by Italy’s prime minister, Matteo Renzi – made clear that this will not happen.

“Whoever wants to leave this family cannot expect to shed all its responsibilities but keep the privileges,” Merkel said. “Those for example, who want free access to the single market will in return have to respect European basic rights and freedoms ... that’s true for Great Britain just as much as for the others.”

Merkel said the UK could enjoy access to the single market only if it accepted the “four basic European freedoms – that of people, goods, services and capital”.

She added: “Norway, for instance, is not a member of the European Union but has access to the single market because it accepts open migration from the European Union.”

Good.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Eradius 2016-06-28 08:23:39
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Bahamut.Kara said: »
Quote:
In a speech to the Bundestag, Merkel said negotiations over Britain’s post-EU future would not be a “cherry-picking exercise”. To applause, she warned that the UK government should be under no illusions over the decisions that would be made.

“We will make sure that negotiations will not be carried out as a cherry-picking exercise. There must be and there will be a palpable difference between those countries who want to be members of the European family and those who don’t,” she said.


Writing in the Daily Telegraph on Monday, Johnson had suggested the UK might “take back democratic control of immigration” while continuing to enjoy free market access. Merkel’s comments – echoed on Tuesday by Italy’s prime minister, Matteo Renzi – made clear that this will not happen.

“Whoever wants to leave this family cannot expect to shed all its responsibilities but keep the privileges,” Merkel said. “Those for example, who want free access to the single market will in return have to respect European basic rights and freedoms ... that’s true for Great Britain just as much as for the others.”

Merkel said the UK could enjoy access to the single market only if it accepted the “four basic European freedoms – that of people, goods, services and capital”.

She added: “Norway, for instance, is not a member of the European Union but has access to the single market because it accepts open migration from the European Union.”

Good.

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By Sylph.Shadowlina 2016-06-28 10:50:47
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Labour MPs pass Corbyn no-confidence motion

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36647458

Quote:
A motion of no confidence in Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has been passed by the party's MPs.
The 172-40 vote, which is not binding, follows resignations from the shadow cabinet and calls on Mr Corbyn to quit.
The leader's allies have told his critics to trigger a formal leadership contest if they want to challenge him.
Shadow chancellor John McDonnell said Mr Corbyn was "not going anywhere", accusing his critics of trying to "subvert democracy".
By volkom 2016-06-28 10:53:24
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Since it's not binding, does it mean it's a waste of time?
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