Reisenjima HELM NMs - Your Own Tier List!

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Reisenjima HELM NMs - Your own tier list!
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2016-05-23 02:44:38
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Long time ago some JP guy posted a "tier list" for HELM NM difficulty and it was something like Schah > Erynis > Teles > Albumen >>>> Vinipata > Onychophora > Zerde.
After killing each NM at least 3 times (and many other failed attempts) my personal tier list is the following:


Onychophora > Vinipata > Schah > Teles > Albumen > Erynis > Zerde


My personal reasoning under spoiler. What's your tier list?
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By Odin.Llewelyn 2016-05-23 03:14:58
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Schah > Albumen > Teles > Erinys > Onychophora > Vinipata = Zerde

For Vinipata we have a SCH/BLM in the BLM PT with Bolster Focus and Bolster Languor and Tab Rasa stun everything. If it goes in Yaksha Stance early and Raksha Stance keeps being stunned, it'll die before 1 hours even wear off. We use a similar strat for Zerde in that we keep him stunned with a SCH/BLM stunning and receiving Bolster Focus and Languor and, again, he dies before 1 hours wear off, thus I put him and Vinipata on equal level.

I put Albumen a bit higher only 'cause I'm usually dual boxing the BRD and my stress level goes up everytime I actually have to focus on my BRD sleeper.

For people that may not already do this, on Onychophora we make our CORs go /SMN for Mewing Lullaby right when we see a Stone spell under 50% so we can ignore worrying about accidentally Deathing on TP abilities due to the TP reset. I'd imagine if you weren't already doing this, you could knock this NM down a tier on your personal list.
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By Fenrir.Ramzus 2016-05-23 03:18:37
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vinipata>schah>albumen>teles>onychophera>zerde>erinys

vini should be self explanatory, high damage, high debuffs, almost guaranteed to wipe

schah requires the highest attention span and coordination by far, but is pretty much a joke if no one nukes the wrong thing

albumen requires a good bard and a blm that can react in that small 30 second window before lullaby wears, and it can sometimes level up which sux

teles is mostly easy you just need to run out a few times during the fight and stun during mbs

onychophera is mostly zzz with a RUN and only using death <50% if people pay attention

zerde can still wipe you out with its aura if you get unlucky on stun

erinys is pretty much the least threatening fight by far, just a bit longer
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By Sylph.Shadowlina 2016-05-23 03:43:44
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Albumen > Vinipata > Schah > Teles = Zerde = Onychophera = Erinys

Why are Teles Zerde Onychopherea and Erinys on the same level? Maybe beacause i've lost to Zerde ocne from something not my fault same with Eriyns, which was a stupid mistake. And Onychopherea was also not my fault. And all these losses are with my american group not my Japanese group who we consistently get clears on.

Albumen in my Japanese crew we have fairly consistently had issues with. We can bring it down, but it's annoying.
Schah is stressful for me, but by no means hard. We've never struggled with Schah, we've never wiped when it sets HPs to 1. Vinipata i die a lot too, it's stressful and annoying. And it's the positioning which we use. We do now wipe to Vini, but the resault is you have a WHM working overdrive.

Teles is just easy teir. Never have wiped to Teles. Ever.
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By Asura.Sechs 2016-05-23 03:49:23
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Odin.Llewelyn said: »
For people that may not already do this, on Onychophora we make our CORs go /SMN for Mewing Lullaby right when we see a Stone spell under 50% so we can ignore worrying about accidentally Deathing on TP abilities due to the TP reset.
Oh this is a neat trick, never thought about this, thanks.

As for Vinipata if someone didn't know, you can "force" him into the "good for magic damage" stance (forgot the name) by applying 4 debuffs on him.
Not sure if songs count for this, but normal debuffs totally do.
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By Ruaumoko 2016-05-23 03:49:33
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Schah = Teles > Albumen > Vinipata > Onychophera > Enriys > Zerde
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By Asura.Sechs 2016-05-23 04:49:33
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Ruaumoko said: »
Albumen can kill you in the blink of an eye if you're unlucky with Bard sleeps.
Don't want to argue the "can kill you in the blin of an eye" part but rather the "if you're unlucky with Bard sleeps." one.

Not sure what you're referring to. Some adds being out of range of the sleep? That never happened to me but I guess it can happen.
Other than that there is no luck involved at all in the bard sleeps, it's all completely under players' control and highly predictable.


Quote:
Vinipata is a *** due to his MDT-% stance.
As said above, you can force him into the right stance by applying 4 different debuffs at the same time.
Not sure if all type of debuffs count (elemental debuffs, song debufs) but at least enfeebling magic ones do count and this method works.


Quote:
Enriys is a joke and if you lose to him it's entirely your own fault.
I can second this. With the current strategy we're using Erynis is the easiest (without Mewing Lullaby he would arguably be the hardest though? lol).
Think it's the only NM we won on first attempt lol.
In defense of people who might have wiped, it can be stressing for the SMNs to keep their attention high for all of the duration of the fight.
Especially because the fight is so boring you might end up talking about other things etc and then miss the right time to use Mewing.
With 3 SMN mains you have a good margin of possible error (i.e. you don't HAVE to go exactely at 10 seconds. Even if you go at 9 or ~13 seconds after previous Lullaby, you're mostly gonna be fine).

I found out that having macros pointing out when a certain pt member has gone and when 10 seconds have occurred since the previous Mewing, makes the fight smoother and makes so you need to pay less attention (i.e. more relaxing for SMNs)

Just my experience btw, I've always been SMN on Erynis so far I think.
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By Ruaumoko 2016-05-23 06:00:35
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Ruaumoko said: »
Albumen can kill you in the blink of an eye if you're unlucky with Bard sleeps.
Don't want to argue the "can kill you in the blin of an eye" part but rather the "if you're unlucky with Bard sleeps." one.

Not sure what you're referring to. Some adds being out of range of the sleep? That never happened to me but I guess it can happen.
Other than that there is no luck involved at all in the bard sleeps, it's all completely under players' control and highly predictable.

We've occasionally had a full or partial resist on Horde Lullaby which led to Mijin or Benediction going off.
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By Asura.Sechs 2016-05-23 06:08:27
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I might be wrong here so feel free to correct me but I don't think full/partial resist is what happened.
I'm more leaning to think something bad happened in your BRD's lua, packet loss, or some gear slot swap etc and the final duration was changed because of that.
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By Sylph.Shadowlina 2016-05-23 06:21:13
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With bard JAs active sleep shouldn't be an issue. that initial sleep after the wipe, have a geo with focus stuck to the bard like a magnet, Revitallizers and stuff for the bard for the next sleep and if you REALLY need to. Wild card for the 3rd set of sleeps.
if your still having problems with food and focus up on the bard, then it's gearswap not changing sets like Sechs said.

We've never had full resists or resists, with Americans or with Japanese groups.

Have a BLM ES Break before they wake up, if you feel the need. That's always been very consistent with our groups.
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By Odin.Llewelyn 2016-05-23 06:27:38
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Same experience here. I've actually made it a point to make a macro that locks my Lullaby gear for Albumen before the sleep and I haven't had any sort of premature wake ups. Also you don't need Focus or anything.
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By Shiva.Hiep 2016-05-23 07:00:40
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Albumen > Schah > Vinipata > Teles > Erinys > Zerde > Onychophora
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By Bahamut.Vinedrius 2016-05-23 07:15:42
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Tbh, it isn't hard to make a few vanilla macros for unforgiving battles to avoid wipe-inducing gearswap errors.

As for tier list, I would say;
Albumen = Vinipata > Schah > Teles > Onychophora = Zerde = Erinys

Zerde is stun stun stun, Erinys is meow meow meow (it forces us to bring BST to burn the adds but not a big deal), Teles can ocassionally be a mega *** with her move selection but not as unforgiving as Albumen, Vinipata or Schah. I still believe there must be a way to deal with Albumen and Vinipata adds, other than sleep/break. All ***goes loose in the blink of an eye when they wake up prematurely.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia 2016-05-23 07:33:00
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Schah > Albumen > Zerde > Vinipata/Teles/Erinys/Onychophora

Schah: The only reason this one is in first for me is that you can get unlucky with Bannaret Charge followed by something else immediately and it kills your off tank. It's annoying. Otherwise it's like most of these fights for me. AFK after throwing up maneuvers.

Albumen: The main NM isn't dangerous at all. Using a blackmage to manawall tank makes the add mostly not an issue also. By using 2x PUP and staggering Overdrive under 50%, he won't move much since all his amnesia/doom/other *** gets completely resisted by the Automaton and he doesn't have any damaging TP moves. You can lose though if something goes wrong on sleeps.

Zerde: If you miss a stun, you can totally lose this ***. My group misses this ***all the time. While it's a super fast fight, farming that damn flan meat takes a while and it still sucks when you lose.

Vinipata: Essentially impossible to lose unless the BRD screws up, and our BRD is pretty good. Double PUP tank means he never moves and he can't kill either puppet so damage is irrelevant.

Teles: We were actually confused when people said this fight was hard. A single PUP tanks her with no issues. Bring a BRD and a SMN to Scherzo/Earthen Armor your Beastmasters to Razor Fang her to death. Save SP abilities for the last 10-20%. Takes ten minutes, no chance of loss.

Erinys: Keep Mew on cooldown. Our SMN all have macros built with fun stuff attached, such as "Mew can take it from here" "It's all up to Mew!" and "Nyancat strikes again!". I'm also 95% certain this fight can be won by Rangers/Sharpshot puppets, but I don't have enough to test it. You can completely ignore it's mechanics that way.

Onychophora: Just don't razor fang at the wrong time too much and you win. No dangerous TP moves. No chance of wipe.
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By Bahamut.Vinedrius 2016-05-23 07:39:40
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Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia said: »
Schah > Albumen > Zerde > Vinipata/Teles/Erinys/Onychophora

Schah: The only reason this one is in first for me is that you can get unlucky with Bannaret Charge followed by something else immediately and it kills your off tank. It's annoying. Otherwise it's like most of these fights for me. AFK after throwing up maneuvers.

Albumen: The main NM isn't dangerous at all. Using a blackmage to manawall tank makes the add mostly not an issue also. By using 2x PUP and staggering Overdrive under 50%, he won't move much since all his amnesia/doom/other *** gets completely resisted by the Automaton and he doesn't have any damaging TP moves. You can lose though if something goes wrong on sleeps.

Zerde: If you miss a stun, you can totally lose this ***. My group misses this ***all the time. While it's a super fast fight, farming that damn flan meat takes a while and it still sucks when you lose.

Vinipata: Essentially impossible to lose unless the BRD screws up, and our BRD is pretty good. Double PUP tank means he never moves and he can't kill either puppet so damage is irrelevant.

Teles: We were actually confused when people said this fight was hard. A single PUP tanks her with no issues. Bring a BRD and a SMN to Scherzo/Earthen Armor your Beastmasters to Razor Fang her to death. Save SP abilities for the last 10-20%. Takes ten minutes, no chance of loss.

Erinys: Keep Mew on cooldown. Our SMN all have macros built with fun stuff attached, such as "Mew can take it from here" "It's all up to Mew!" and "Nyancat strikes again!". I'm also 95% certain this fight can be won by Rangers/Sharpshot puppets, but I don't have enough to test it. You can completely ignore it's mechanics that way.

Onychophora: Just don't razor fang at the wrong time too much and you win. No dangerous TP moves. No chance of wipe.

Only if we had a few real PUPs. Classic PLD/MB setup or bust. We did use PUP for Teles once or twice iirc, but for us, that means a very good blm/sch have to dualbox a mule on PUP :/
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By Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia 2016-05-23 07:49:33
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Bahamut.Vinedrius said: »
Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia said: »
Schah > Albumen > Zerde > Vinipata/Teles/Erinys/Onychophora

Schah: The only reason this one is in first for me is that you can get unlucky with Bannaret Charge followed by something else immediately and it kills your off tank. It's annoying. Otherwise it's like most of these fights for me. AFK after throwing up maneuvers.

Albumen: The main NM isn't dangerous at all. Using a blackmage to manawall tank makes the add mostly not an issue also. By using 2x PUP and staggering Overdrive under 50%, he won't move much since all his amnesia/doom/other *** gets completely resisted by the Automaton and he doesn't have any damaging TP moves. You can lose though if something goes wrong on sleeps.

Zerde: If you miss a stun, you can totally lose this ***. My group misses this ***all the time. While it's a super fast fight, farming that damn flan meat takes a while and it still sucks when you lose.

Vinipata: Essentially impossible to lose unless the BRD screws up, and our BRD is pretty good. Double PUP tank means he never moves and he can't kill either puppet so damage is irrelevant.

Teles: We were actually confused when people said this fight was hard. A single PUP tanks her with no issues. Bring a BRD and a SMN to Scherzo/Earthen Armor your Beastmasters to Razor Fang her to death. Save SP abilities for the last 10-20%. Takes ten minutes, no chance of loss.

Erinys: Keep Mew on cooldown. Our SMN all have macros built with fun stuff attached, such as "Mew can take it from here" "It's all up to Mew!" and "Nyancat strikes again!". I'm also 95% certain this fight can be won by Rangers/Sharpshot puppets, but I don't have enough to test it. You can completely ignore it's mechanics that way.

Onychophora: Just don't razor fang at the wrong time too much and you win. No dangerous TP moves. No chance of wipe.

Only if we had a few real PUPs. Classic PLD/MB setup or bust. We did use PUP for Teles once or twice iirc, but for us, that means a very good blm/sch have to dualbox a mule on PUP :/

Except for on Teles and Albumen, PUP is an AFK tank. Build your maneuver duration before you pop the mob and you're golden.

Thinking back on Erinys, you don't even have to mew now that I think of it. The wind aura doesn't affect anything standing inside the mob, we've tested that many a time before. The positioning take a minute, but after that you can probably just floor plant your bubbles behind him, then just have your THFs trick attack off eachother inside of him if you can't get SA working.
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By Sylph.Jeanpaul 2016-05-23 14:38:11
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Surprised so many people here consider Albumen to be one of the harder ones, where I feel the complete opposite. We only lost to him once because our BRD had SV up when he used Marcato (negating the JP duration bonus for Marcato), so the adds woke up sooner than we anticipated. Even when he does the HP down, stuff like Third Eye and Stoneskin, coupled with his weak regular hits, make him pretty manageable.

Vinipata has been our hardest due to the physical damage he can put out and the stance ***.

Regarding Flan Meats, wasn't there an item that dispensed absurd amounts of it? I remember a dude hoarding it for me when I was looking for ultra-cheap skill up synths for Alchemy.

Also, for those of you using BST: What kind of accuracy are you requiring to hit these?
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By Fenrir.Ramzus 2016-05-23 14:45:54
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It's not so much that Albumen is "hard", it's more so that it has the most that could go wrong, coupled with really high stats. I haven't fought it without a RUN in a while but iirc without bolster, Death was doing maybe 50k max. You also get ~10 less minutes to fight it if you go with the wiping route at the start (i think i saw someone mana wall tank for 6 minutes instead but you're basically down a full blm at that point.)

asides from that, if you don't stun bot hate reset, it gets messy really fast. if it levels up it also becomes pretty much unkillable too
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By Sylph.Jeanpaul 2016-05-23 14:50:53
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We did it with Fire MBs instead of Death, worked rather well. We only had to resleep the adds once. Didn't use stuns, but using Vex/Attunement allowed us to bypass nearly everything he had, which seems to negate his hate reset too. We're spot on with Dispels too so he never levels up.
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By Odin.Llewelyn 2016-05-23 14:51:18
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His concept is pretty simple, yeah.

Breakga at 6:45 after Lullaby > Relullaby > Win

I just get super stressed on that NM (well a lot of HELM NMs, really) when triple boxing, which makes me not look forward to doing him. I'll probably be looking for real people after I get the mules a couple things I want on them.

Edit: Same, we don't stun Petalback Spin anymore and just have 1 GEO doing Vex/Focus in the BLM party. I usually resist everything except a couple status ailments, which is all I ask for. BLMs just keep Mana Wall up and no one ever dies even if it takes me 2 actions to get hate back.

We have tried Fire once but it was pretty horrible. We may try it again, though, since we use RUN now. How long does it take you guys to kill him when using Fire? On a good attempt, he's at about 20% when we relullaby when using Death.
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By Asura.Krystela 2016-05-23 15:12:02
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Hmm, after doing those nms 54762754764576 times to help everyone get their Aeonic, thats kinda my list as a whm.

Teles (Because the pup acts weird sometimes) -> Vinipata (Sometimes he goes FU) -> Onychyphora (Because sometimes people heal it) -> Schah(Sometimes a bit annoying on the healing side)/Albumen/ Enrinys/Zerde
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By Sylph.Shadowlina 2016-05-23 15:15:55
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Asura.Krystela said: »
Hmm, after doing those nms 54762754764576 times to help everyone get their Aeonic, thats kinda my list as a whm.

Teles (Because the pup acts weird sometimes) -> Vinipata (Sometimes he goes FU) -> Onychyphora (Because sometimes people heal it) -> Schah(Sometimes a bit annoying on the healing side)/Albumen/ Enrinys/Zerde
With the Japanese strat. the WHM Dream happened today, I DIDDN'T DIE
*Runs around the house* I DID IT MUM!
I Nearly died tho. had like 200 HP. BUT I DID IT MAAAA!
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By Asura.Krystela 2016-05-23 15:18:53
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Sylph.Shadowlina said: »
Asura.Krystela said: »
Hmm, after doing those nms 54762754764576 times to help everyone get their Aeonic, thats kinda my list as a whm.

Teles (Because the pup acts weird sometimes) -> Vinipata (Sometimes he goes FU) -> Onychyphora (Because sometimes people heal it) -> Schah(Sometimes a bit annoying on the healing side)/Albumen/ Enrinys/Zerde
With the Japanese strat. the WHM Dream happened today, I DIDDN'T DIE
*Runs around the house* I DID IT MUM!
I Nearly died tho. had like 200 HP. BUT I DID IT MAAAA!
What @_@
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By Sylph.Shadowlina 2016-05-23 15:19:38
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The only reason why i hate vini is Japanese strat means the WHM is always in the AoE Range. But today.
I diddn't die 10000 times. I diddn't die once!

I did it.
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By Asura.Krystela 2016-05-23 15:21:11
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Sylph.Shadowlina said: »
The only reason why i hate vini is Japanese strat means the WHM is always in the AoE Range. But today.
I diddn't die 10000 times.

I did it.
What? Why? Really? I've never been in range, I get hit by the stupid knockback and run back but that's it. Japanese strat so mean to whms ;;;;;
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By Sylph.Jeanpaul 2016-05-23 15:51:31
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Odin.Llewelyn said: »
We have tried Fire once but it was pretty horrible. We may try it again, though, since we use RUN now. How long does it take you guys to kill him when using Fire? On a good attempt, he's at about 20% when we relullaby when using Death.
I dunno, it's probably about the same, the advantage to Fire is it's easier to take advantage of Tabula Rasa, and even without, you can do Liq > Fusion. I suppose it's really a matter of how your BLMs are geared. I'm never paying attention to the fight timer too, so I dunno how long it takes, but we only resleep them once.
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By Sylph.Shadowlina 2016-05-23 16:03:16
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Asura.Krystela said: »
Sylph.Shadowlina said: »
The only reason why i hate vini is Japanese strat means the WHM is always in the AoE Range. But today.
I diddn't die 10000 times.

I did it.
What? Why? Really? I've never been in range, I get hit by the stupid knockback and run back but that's it. Japanese strat so mean to whms ;;;;;
Lol I dont so much mind it. it's manageable even with weakness at least.

I Still HATE how again people are saying even here that Schah is a wipe with Bannaret Charge. All of my Schah Wins have been fights where it has used Bannaret Charge. I've solo healed a RUN and he survived Bannaret Charge. Just good timing on a WHM and it IS survivable.
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By Verda 2016-05-23 16:05:03
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IMHO Albumen = Schah = Vini > Teles > Erinys > Onychophora > Zerde

It might be easier now with diff setups and better gear for everyone but, Schah is a serious both DPS and PLD and WHM check. If you fall behind there's too many, which kills the PLD, and they start becoming upgraded into Mantri. If all the people meet their DPS and Tank/support checks the fight mechanically is kinda fun. Albumen has constant hate resets and the strategy was to wipe which cut down on time you had to kill it. With the new no wipe strat it might be way easier but keeping track of rolls, and sleep timers was a nightamre for me. Vini, I wanna try what was said by Llewyn above, because it is also sucky because of a wipe strategy and that one you have multiple sleep timers...

Teles is a check on dps and teamwork. I don't think it's that bad done right. Erinys is the easiest one IF you have the jobs for it. Finding BST able to clear the adds at the start is imo the hardest part. The worm is annoying but is just patience, helix can do literally all the work for you if you want. Zerde is really "can your blm stun" and that's about it.
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By Sylph.Shadowlina 2016-05-23 16:07:06
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Japanese Strat for Vini is wipeless. I've never intentionally wiped for Vini. I don't quite understand the reason for the wipe for Vini. Albumen sure. but Vini. *Shrugs*
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By Asura.Krystela 2016-05-23 16:07:31
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Sylph.Shadowlina said: »
Asura.Krystela said: »
Sylph.Shadowlina said: »
The only reason why i hate vini is Japanese strat means the WHM is always in the AoE Range. But today.
I diddn't die 10000 times.

I did it.
What? Why? Really? I've never been in range, I get hit by the stupid knockback and run back but that's it. Japanese strat so mean to whms ;;;;;
Lol I dont so much mind it. it's manageable even with weakness at least.

I Still HATE how again people are saying even here that Schah is a wipe with Bannaret Charge. All of my Schah Wins have been fights where it has used Bannaret Charge. I've solo healed a RUN and he survived Bannaret Charge. Just good timing on a WHM and it IS survivable.

yes, yes and YEESSSSSSSS. Seriously, how hard is it to check the log and precure it, not hard at all. Same with the obvious ST20, you get stunned? Sacrifice + heal the tank when you get unstunned.

There is this guy on our server convinced that we stun bot through that stuffs, like no, I just heal it, thats it.
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