269 Skill Weapons

Different type of debate. What weapons are worth it to make from scratch that justified the price tag and hard work? Almace tizona ragnarok etc? Almace seems to be a significant boost from tanmogayi/colada combo.

If you look at it from the flavor of the month perspective; anything for one of these jobs which is also benefiting for everyone: pld sch blm geo blu whm (e.g. not personal fun stuff like mjollnir). Support stuff are always great regardless of the present meta. Most DD stuff should be avoided IF you will only use it for poking fodder (i.e. you won't be using it events at all or for helping others in content that really matters) or if you don't want to take the big risk of regretting your choice later due to job favoritism.

I made Liberator to kick it off and has been a lot of fun. Working on Ragnarok now

Unless massively nerfed, Idris will be the only RMEA that will never fall from usefulness. So if you're looking for the absolute best investment possible, that's the one.

If you're looking to build a weapon you'll actually enjoy, take your favorite job and make a weapon for it. Simple as that.

FFXI 2016 aren't anywhere close to 75 era. At that time you pretty much has to be ls leader or rich crafter to get a relic. Nowadays player finish 1 mythic in a month, upgrade it to 119 III in 1-2 weeks during campaign, or finish all hmp stage in a month of VW. How many players manage to finish 1 relic in 1-2 months of playing? There no way skill 269 weapon gonna be as rare as relic in 75 era. It would be as common as empy 4 years ago.



AG weapons are pretty huge boost, checking blu spreadsheet rq, I'm getting close to 30% dps increase upgrading Tanmogayi +1 colada to Tizona almace AG. That's a damn lot for 2 items in FFXI, since majority of items are 1%-3% increase in FFXI, 30% is just massive.

In other words, just like empy in abyssea era, a shitty DD can still do decent damage because they have AG.

Comparing the damage boost to empy in abyssea is just right. If AG damage is something like 5% or 10% then alternatives would still be viable, but at 30% it's just not possible. If you're completing with AG DD with other alternatives, they pretty much have to be in spark gear if you want to have any chance to deal as much dmg as them.


All those people saying "not having AG weapon is alright!!!!", no it's not alright to be 30% behind lol. 30% behind another DD is not "good enough", it's like using Vorpal blade in abyssea era when another blu uses CDC. Or MNK using A. fury when empy MNK uses VS.

I thought empy in abyssea was "mind bottling" to make because that was a lot of work to kill NM 50 times.

But people generates empy every week, every month, until every DD in the job market has one.

Just because you think it's mind bottling, doesn't mean people won't finish one in a month or two. Oh and theres also aeonic, which are also quite good and people finish it in less than a month.

It doesn't matter whether you think it's being hard to make or not, what it matters is how many people have it, and will they take the DD spot in shout over people without it.

This applies to every post above who think being 30% behind is alright for DD jobs. Unless you guys are making every single shout and recruit for every LS, your opinion about 0.8 DPS's value doesn't matter. What it matter is other pt leads opinion about inviting someone to pt and do 80% of damage of another guy that he can get.

Exactly. That's why I did Idris. So easy to make. The price is now even below a ag weapon.

Afania what percentage is a almace over a decent colada?

No you don't.

Not sure about the super small population servers but on Asura PUG's are never asking for AG weapons and are often surprised when I show up glowing.

The era of "super weapons ONRY" is over with and won't ever be coming back. People need to get that through their heads.

I agree with that, I don't see the VW stygma ever surfacing again, and even if that were to happen I'm pretty sure SE would counteract swiftly (like releasing non-RME weapons with 269 skill).

When they released the RME update they did it thinking about the future, way ahead of now.
They made those upgrades thinking about possible further upgrades to RME. These upgrades might never see the light of day, but it's a card SE have in their deck, and they're gonna play it if need be.

AG was just out for 3 months though, no one ask for empy back then when empy was just out for 3 months. Empy only mentality happened in VW era, 1.5-2 years after empyreans out.

this discussion isn't about what's happening now, but 1-2 years later when most people have AG and new melee friendly content out.

It's not that Im obsessed with super weapon only mentality(I've been against SE super buffing REM to begin with), it's just the most logical assumption after observing what happened in VW. There are 2 very important factors why it happened in VW, which is 1. Empy were easy to obtain 2. It was massive upgrade. AG pretty much fulfilled both criteria.

If SE didn't do all that VW or BC campaign No.1 criteria probably won't be met. But they did.

People keep coming to this thread saying it won't happen, but based on what reason? The only possible way to prevent it is like what Sechs said, SE release skill 269 alternatives. Which we don't know if it will ever happen or not.

Which is exactely what SE fought so hard against since SoA release so I'm not sure where you're getting the "logic" that they've changed their stance and they're now fine with such a situation to evere rise again.


For now things are fine, people have "goals" to work for with the RME patches, the Aeonic and everything else, which is exactely what SE wanted to achieve.
When/If things should get more stale and RMEA become something even remotely close to what the VW era was, I'm pretty confident SE will act swiftly with one of the plentiful actions they could take against such a scenario.

I get the feel that they've changed their stance because they buffed REM so much.

They clearly said they want none REM alternatives to be competitive against REM weapons. So we're free to use alternatives and still won't be behind.

Suddenly they decided to buff REM so much and pretty much force DD players to grind one. That's how I feel SE has changed their stance about REM. If they don't want it to happen to begin with, why buff them that much? They could just make new REM 5% increase and call it a day.

Yeah, they wanted to replace REM's, and through the course of SoA absolutely tried that, succeeding at times. There was a LOT of crying about it which is why they changed their stance a bit. They probably saw the economical effects of REM's and made the 269's, as well.

Don't want to give a feeling I'm arguing on purpose against you, so I apologize in advance if that's what you think.
But, again, I don't think I agree with this.

The situation is quite different.
They buffed RMEA to offer middle/long term achievements and goals to players, in a world where RMEA matter mostly for Melee and melees hardly matter for... stuff that matters.

It's quite a different scenario from how things used to be some years ago?
And it's been less than 4 months since the 269 patch hit, surely "something new" is gonna happen about RMEA and weapons in general, but we can't really expect that to happen so soon?

Not saying they couldn't have changed their stance, I'm just saying I'm skeptic about that to ever happen and that SO FAR I don't see the signs hinting that it happened/going to happen.

They've seen what you're saying long time ago, yet out of all the possible times they could've chosen to act, we have to ask ourselves "why now?" because I think that's the key.

To me, that's a sign that nothing has changed (no big changes at least) but that they only needed an instrument to offer cheap (resource-wise for them) long/middle term content to keep players busy.

269 skill weapons don't help you MB harder therefor they will not be required for the highest end content. One of our LS super BLM's made an Aeonic staff that he jokes is a lockstyle piece.

Of the content that remains, ~CL135 and below, groups can already 6 man them without the need of 269 weapons and adding 269 weapons doesn't reduce the number of people needed.

And unlike previously there are many alternatives that are nearly as powerful as 269 skill weapons. In fact SE needed to update the REM's because of how far behind they were from these other, easier to acquire, alternatives. And now the power gap is much smaller.

Chango
DMG: 336 Delay 480
Skill +269
Store TP +10
TP Bonus +500

Aganoshe (my augments)
DMG: 297+26 Delay 504
Skill +242
Store TP +5
Atk 5+7
Acc 25+25
WSD +1, STR +2 PDT-3

Ragnarok
DMG: 304 Delay 431
Skill +269
Accuracy +60
+14% Crit
16% chance of first hit doing 2.5x damage

Zulfiqar
DMG: 297+25 Delay 504
Skill +242
Accuracy 15+21
Attack 15+16
DA +2%
WSD 2+3%
STR +11

So while the two 269 skill REMA weapons are "better" the power gap isn't so large as to create a requirement for them, it's much smaller then previous era's.

What are we arguing about again?

We must have different pov about the definition of "small gap".

Also I find it interesting that you didn't use weapon with stronger AM, such as your AG Tizona and almace as an example to demonstrate the gap.

That just give me the impression that you're trying to win the augment, not proving a point.

I think the more prevalent point is that if you are shouting for XXX job to fill the gap in a pug, then you won't care if someone has a 242 or 269 weapon, you will just want them to not be gimp, and willing to fill that spot.

Comparing 2 minute clears to 4 minute clears means nothing when it takes you over an hour to find that last "elite" member.

I am agreeing with Afania on this one, and once you add in the AM that small gap becomes much larger, comparing 242 skill and total of +36 acc vs, AM rag with 269 skill and +75 acc + 24% crit rate + 16% x2.5 dmg first swing. Not to mention the weapon delay of 431 vs 504, especially since you can 4hit + ws on rag easy. Those weapons are not comparable by any means. That is like trying to compare perfect aug macbain to AG rag, lacking way too much acc and there is a huge gap in dmg difference.

I get you point, and it's already being addresses pages ago. This entire "skill 242 DD won't get an invite" scenario was entirely based on the assumption that pt leader has a choice to choose between skill 242 and 269 with no down time on waiting. (That means when majority of DD player base bandwagoned an AG Tizona or almace, and 3 of them are competing for 1 single DD spot)

I don't get the point at this point. Content can be cleared with 244 skill weapons and competency. 269 is icing on a cake but wont make up for a lack of competence/understanding of the targets mechanics.

No one is trying to say that a regular 119 weapon is equal to a 121 REAME. (Excluding REA staves and clubs...)
No one is trying to say that they are inferior either. (Excluding REA staves and clubs.)
But to try and say that there's some sort of vast gulf between them... Is just moronic.

Yes they're better.
But are they they 2~10x better than everything else like they were in the 99 era?
The hell no.

They're not even as disparate as Relics and Mythics were in the 75 era. (As in, there was a larger gap between R&M and generic weapon options then than now... But both are basically equal when juxtaposed to the rampant disparity between REMs and everything else in the 99 era.)

Of course they're superior. They've got ~25 more Acc and Atk on them naturally. And that's not even addressing Relic's massive Acc boost.
But are they gonna make you have a bad time if you don't have them?
Are they so pivotal that they MUST be made to be competitive?
The hells no. (Well except Aegis I guess.)
It's not even the difference between a 2min and a 4min run.
It's the difference between a 8min and a 10min run.
In other words: not much of a difference.
Get out of the 99 era mentality.
Especially when you *** and moan about a return to the 75 era.
(Which as for gearing paradigm and weapon choice, we've already returned to.)

Can current content be beaten with 242? Yes

Will a 269 be more likely to get an invite? Yes

Should you make a 269? Personally I think it is well worth the investment.

Is it a necessity? No

Will it become a necessity? We don't know that yet.

Ask almost all the pt lead in 2012, why'd they shout for empy only.

Also with how op AGs are, it's really hard to *** up DD role with one. I mean, exactly how can you *** up?

This argument is entirely pointless anyways. We can spend days saying skill 242 DD will or will not get invite, in the end it's not gonna change anything. Those who doesn't get invite without AG still won't, and those gets invite for whatever reason will get invite anyways.

Saving the fact that they've stated that they don't ever want that situation again.
Sure.
We "don't know".
Lest we read and pay attention to what the devs say.

We also don't know if they'll make 75 capped servers just for people to transfer to!
I bet that'll be a thing they do some time.
I mean, they've said multiple times that that isn't something that would happen...
But we just don't know!
/trolling

Because SE has never changed things after saying they would do something different....

All these people claiming the difference are small(by purposely ignore new aftermath damage and +50 stat boost), try to parse against AG Tizona + Almace blu, but you're only allowed to use skill 242 alternatives.

If you win or only 5% behind then I'll agree with you. The gap is small.

If you are more than 5% behind then you can't prove your point of gap being small.

You can keep saying "the gap is smalllll" here all day long, or play the "you just have lv 99 mentality" card, it doesn't change the fact that skill 242 DD can't compete.

Bringing out 75 era or "lv 99 mentality"(whatever that is)in this argument is ridiculous. I don't even know why is it being mentioned when it's entirely irrelevant in this argument. My argument is completely based on the numbers I see on my spreadsheet. Skill 242 weapons are just way behind.

I actually did this in SR. We were 4 melees a whm and a geo. Melees were AG Tizona BLU, AG Rag DRK, AG Apoc DRK, and me the Tanmogayi +1/Colada BLU. Tizona parsed #1, I parsed #2 behind by 1%.

Now please, don't read into this more than necessary. Everyone in that pt was skilled and with buffing time we were clearing it in under 4 min per run. The point is simply that your damage depends on a lot of factors and a 242 weapon can compete.

Also, AG Tizona/Almace is a 30% increase, yes, but that's 30% of your damage. So if you parse at 30% total damage in the fight using Tanmogayi +1/Colada, you will not parse 60% with AG Tizona/Almace. Your total will go up to 35-38% of the fight if no one else changed and if you were not benefiting from other players' afterglows in your 242 weapons.

So yeah, if you can make a 269 weapon, do it. But if you can't, play well and you'll be fine. Besides, this is a 14 year old game. By now, everyone should know how to play it.