The Official BGWiki Thread!

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The Official BGWiki Thread!
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By Asura.Floppyseconds 2016-03-23 15:53:44
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As you know the cadre over at BGWiki are sometimes hard at work on improving the site and adding content.

Overtime it has developed a niche for new content information. Many of the long standing issues of basic item information missing are slowly being rectified as well. There is mass amount of ground to cover of course. However, we are always working to create a comprehensive solution to all of the needs one may have for the game.

So, to the point. The idea for this thread just popped into my head today. So I shot a line over to Funkworkz and suggested it, to his approval.
We would like to field any questions users may have, address any concerns, and get feedback. This will allow us to target the best volume of requests and focus on content creation in a better manner.

We will also be able to deliver the notification of updates on completed projects to you through this thread.

TL;DR
Ask stuff 'bout BGWiki.

~Spicyryan of Asura
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 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2016-03-23 16:16:23
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Hmmm. I like this thread idea.

One thing I've noticed recently, is that there's pretty much no info on newer normal monsters and their locations on the wiki.

For example, looking up the word Apex, an entire series of mobs, yield... Apex arrow results, and little else.

I suppose this is possibly more a FFXIDB site thing, but well, that's not working either, map wise.(they do at least have a list of mobs/zones though)

Another thing is basic item pages. One of the primary uses for a wiki, is finding out what the hell this thing that just fell in my inventory is for. But if you look up say, Dark matter... Nada. You're left with no clue what should be done with it based on the page. At least there's a link to the FFXIAH page for it though, where the comments do inform.

One of the advantages of the old wiki was the cross connections between items and what they could be used for. Although, I understand that that's both difficult(impossible?) to automate, and work intensive to do. But it's a thought.

Also, the arcane glyptics page for Reisenjima gear doesn't make a single mention of Dark Matter augs and the differences in its augs/caps. Now Dark matter augs are hardly mainstream, considering the cost and randomness. But with this event going on people might want to at least be able to look up the augment mechanics/caps without digging through the BG thread.
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By Asura.Floppyseconds 2016-03-23 16:24:10
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Hmmm. I like this thread idea.

One thing I've notice recently, is that there's pretty much no info on newer normal monsters and their locations on the wiki.

For example, looking up the word Apex, an entire series of mobs, yield... Apex arrow results, and little else.

I suppose this is possibly more a FFXIDB site thing, but well, that's not working either, map wise.(they do at least have a list of mobs/zones though)

Another thing is basic item pages. One of the primary uses for a wiki, is finding out what the hell this thing that just fell in my inventory is for. But if you look up say, Dark matter... Nada. You're left with no clue what should be done with it based on the page. At least there's a link to the FFXIAH page for it though, where the comments do inform.

One of the advantages of the old wiki was the cross connections between items and what they could be used for. Although, I understand that that's both difficult(impossible?) to automate, and work intensive to do. But it's a thought.

Also, the arcane glyptics page for Reisenjima gear doesn't make a single mention of Dark Matter augs and the differences in its augs/caps. Now Dark matter augs are hardly mainstream, considering the cost and randomness. But with this event going on people might want to at least be able to look up the augment mechanics/caps without digging through the BG thread.

I will go over the Vagary page items and review them (I have previously skimmed them before, but I am sure I missed a thing or two) either today or tomorrow and remedy that. Generally I am the one who fills in all those item pages, but there are just so many. Thank you for mentioning Dark Matter.

As for the augments. I would say now that the DM campaign has been going it is possible to record some of the augments. We do know things like MAB or Acc cap at +50 though. Faequeen has been overseeing that page since its creation, but I can take a look at it. No promise on a timeline for that though.

As for Apex mobs if anyone can list out (didn't you make a thread for this Jean?) the positions for all the Apex mobs I can add that to the list. I wouldn't hold my breath for FFXIDB getting updated though.
As for normal mobs beyond that. That will not be coming anytime soon, but anyone is free to work on it. It has been mainly an issue since Adoulin. A page like Marjami Ravine or something needs work.

As for cross connections what are you exactly referring to? Clicking the BG icon in the right corner of an item will bring you to a list of all pages it is mentioned on.
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By Caitsith.Mahayaya 2016-03-23 16:27:47
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For AHable items, having the breakdown of category an item is listed under would be so nice. 9/10 it's listed in Alchemy because all random crap is, but knowing where to look to buy stuff would be nice immediately on the item page. That could also be a useful enhancement to this site though...
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By Sylph.Funkworkz 2016-03-23 16:28:20
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Ive said it before and I'll say it again. We edit the wiki for the community. If the community didn't exist, there would be no reason for us to spend hours working on BGWiki. We do not get any compensation for the work that we do, so it is all on a volunteer basis. I want to make the experience for those still playing FFXI to be as enjoyable as possible. Helping players by editing a major information source is one of those ways. We want to focus our efforts where you want them to be focused.

My hopes for this thread are that it will let us easily communicate with all of you, the players and the readers. Let us know what you want to see done, and we will be sure to prioritize it.
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By Asura.Floppyseconds 2016-03-23 16:29:37
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Caitsith.Mahayaya said: »
For AHable items, having the breakdown of category an item is listed under would be so nice. 9/10 it's listed in Alchemy because all random crap is, but knowing where to look to buy stuff would be nice immediately on the item page. That could also be a useful enhancement to this site though...

This is done in the tags at the bottom.

Picking a random item like this.

Quote:
Categories: Item|Food|Seafood

This means it is under food>seafood on the AH.


Since alchemy was recently broken down into two categories it has to be manually changed. I don't know if future uploads would keep that though, but I don't think that would be something that changes much.

I can bang that out in 15-20 minutes though (adding or changing alchemy1 alchemy2) after Funk throws me some input.
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2016-03-23 16:40:08
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Asura.Floppyseconds said: »
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Hmmm. I like this thread idea.

One thing I've notice recently, is that there's pretty much no info on newer normal monsters and their locations on the wiki.

For example, looking up the word Apex, an entire series of mobs, yield... Apex arrow results, and little else.

I suppose this is possibly more a FFXIDB site thing, but well, that's not working either, map wise.(they do at least have a list of mobs/zones though)

Another thing is basic item pages. One of the primary uses for a wiki, is finding out what the hell this thing that just fell in my inventory is for. But if you look up say, Dark matter... Nada. You're left with no clue what should be done with it based on the page. At least there's a link to the FFXIAH page for it though, where the comments do inform.

One of the advantages of the old wiki was the cross connections between items and what they could be used for. Although, I understand that that's both difficult(impossible?) to automate, and work intensive to do. But it's a thought.

Also, the arcane glyptics page for Reisenjima gear doesn't make a single mention of Dark Matter augs and the differences in its augs/caps. Now Dark matter augs are hardly mainstream, considering the cost and randomness. But with this event going on people might want to at least be able to look up the augment mechanics/caps without digging through the BG thread.

I will go over the Vagary page items and review them (I have previously skimmed them before, but I am sure I missed a thing or two) either today or tomorrow and remedy that. Generally I am the one who fills in all those item pages, but there are just so many. Thank you for mentioning Dark Matter.

As for the augments. I would say now that the DM campaign has been going it is possible to record some of the augments. We do know things like MAB or Acc cap at +50 though. Faequeen has been overseeing that page since its creation, but I can take a look at it. No promise on a timeline for that though.

As for Apex mobs if anyone can list out (didn't you make a thread for this Jean?) the positions for all the Apex mobs I can add that to the list. I wouldn't hold my breath for FFXIDB getting updated though.
As for normal mobs beyond that. That will not be coming anytime soon, but anyone is free to work on it. It has been mainly an issue since Adoulin. A page like Marjami Ravine or something needs work.

As for cross connections what are you exactly referring to? Clicking the BG icon in the right corner of an item will bring you to a list of all pages it is mentioned on.
Oh nice. I didn't know about that. That pretty much covers the functionality I was thinking of, provided the item is present in other relevant pages.

I'll try to think of other things that would be nice for the wiki. Maybe update a few things myself, where my page editing skills allow.
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By Sylph.Funkworkz 2016-03-23 16:40:24
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
One thing I've notice recently, is that there's pretty much no info on newer normal monsters and their locations on the wiki.

For example, looking up the word Apex, an entire series of mobs, yield... Apex arrow results, and little else.

I suppose this is possibly more a FFXIDB site thing, but well, that's not working either, map wise.(they do at least have a list of mobs/zones though)

It is true that we have relied on FFXIDB in the past to show spawn locations. This is not so true these days in new areas and for new mobs. At some point in the past, data gathering stopped on FFXIDB, causing a stop to new information gathering. It is a good idea to update these monster lists, especially apex mobs.

Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Another thing is basic item pages. One of the primary uses for a wiki, is finding out what the hell this thing that just fell in my inventory is for. But if you look up say, Dark matter... Nada. You're left with no clue what should be done with it based on the page. At least there's a link to the FFXIAH page for it though, where the comments do inform.

One of the advantages of the old wiki was the cross connections between items and what they could be used for. Although, I understand that that's both difficult(impossible?) to automate, and work intensive to do. But it's a thought.

I know this issue is a huge deal breaker for most players, and that is the reason they pull up oldwiki when they see a blank item page. It is important to understand that updating the item pages is pretty much double the work when we go and add said item to an event page. Take Eschalixir +2 as an example. The usage for this item is clearly shown on Nolan, but nothing is on the actual page. Because we try to get data out as fast as possible, normal item pages are usually lost in the shuffle. I eventually DO want to populate all item pages, without a question. This is a goal we have, without a doubt. In the meantime as Spicy mentioned, you can click the BG icon in the upper right of any item page and see where it is linked from internally on other wiki pages.
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By Asura.Floppyseconds 2016-03-23 16:44:18
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Egh, I wonder If I can be lazy and put for Eschalixir "all NMs in escha zitah and ruaun" for +1 the same thing, and then for +2 all T2 and T3 NMs.

A page like Pakecet covers how all T3 RuAun NMs drop +2 airlixirs. So it is just a matter of putting that on the lixir page.
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By Sylph.Funkworkz 2016-03-23 16:51:08
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Caitsith.Mahayaya said: »
For AHable items, having the breakdown of category an item is listed under would be so nice. 9/10 it's listed in Alchemy because all random crap is, but knowing where to look to buy stuff would be nice immediately on the item page. That could also be a useful enhancement to this site though...

This is a semi-completed project. There is no reliable way to automatically add this to an item page when I generate them upon being added to the game. That being said, a tag needs to be added manually. We have the majority of items with a category tag, but I believe this stopped sometime late 2014/early 2015. I will be sure to add finishing this to our list of things to do.

To see where we are at, look on the left in the navigation. You can see a dropdown menu that says Items. Click on Materials from there, and then you can see sub categories. These match the AH Materials category. Click on one from there and that is an incomplete list materials sorted alphabetically like the AH in-game.

This tag is also shown on item pages on the bottom in a category list. Remember, not all items are done so it is missing on newer pages.
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By Asura.Floppyseconds 2016-03-23 17:04:44
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Sylph.Funkworkz said: »
Caitsith.Mahayaya said: »
For AHable items, having the breakdown of category an item is listed under would be so nice. 9/10 it's listed in Alchemy because all random crap is, but knowing where to look to buy stuff would be nice immediately on the item page. That could also be a useful enhancement to this site though...

This is a semi-completed project. There is no reliable way to automatically add this to an item page when I generate them upon being added to the game. That being said, a tag needs to be added manually. We have the majority of items with a category tag, but I believe this stopped sometime late 2014/early 2015. I will be sure to add finishing this to our list of things to do.

To see where we are at, look on the left in the navigation. You can see a dropdown menu that says Items. Click on Materials from there, and then you can see sub categories. These match the AH Materials category. Click on one from there and that is an incomplete list materials sorted alphabetically like the AH in-game.

This tag is also shown on item pages on the bottom in a category list. Remember, not all items are done so it is missing on newer pages.

Yeah, but no one is going to the materials page.

They want what is on the bottom of the page there, but since it isn't staring users in the face like on clopedia they don't know that Carp Sushi is under breads and rice and not seafood meanwhile it is tagged at the bottom for breads and rice.

While we both love the icon for the referenced pages link, Funk. My fear is clearly realized in the fact users don't know it is even a link.

Similar to the scroll icon on pages bringing you from the spell page to the scroll page where the NPC vendor and things would be contained. Why exactly did you guys split up scrolls and spells?
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2016-03-23 17:40:19
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Asura.Floppyseconds said: »
Sylph.Funkworkz said: »
Caitsith.Mahayaya said: »
For AHable items, having the breakdown of category an item is listed under would be so nice. 9/10 it's listed in Alchemy because all random crap is, but knowing where to look to buy stuff would be nice immediately on the item page. That could also be a useful enhancement to this site though...

This is a semi-completed project. There is no reliable way to automatically add this to an item page when I generate them upon being added to the game. That being said, a tag needs to be added manually. We have the majority of items with a category tag, but I believe this stopped sometime late 2014/early 2015. I will be sure to add finishing this to our list of things to do.

To see where we are at, look on the left in the navigation. You can see a dropdown menu that says Items. Click on Materials from there, and then you can see sub categories. These match the AH Materials category. Click on one from there and that is an incomplete list materials sorted alphabetically like the AH in-game.

This tag is also shown on item pages on the bottom in a category list. Remember, not all items are done so it is missing on newer pages.

Yeah, but no one is going to the materials page.

They want what is on the bottom of the page there, but since it isn't staring users in the face like on clopedia they don't know that Carp Sushi is under breads and rice and not seafood meanwhile it is tagged at the bottom for breads and rice.

While we both love the icon for the referenced pages link, Funk. My fear is clearly realized in the fact users don't know it is even a link.

Similar to the scroll icon on pages bringing you from the spell page to the scroll page where the NPC vendor and things would be contained. Why exactly did you guys split up scrolls and spells?
Oh god! I'm a User..!?
Anyone in Tech Support related fields will understand how disturbing, and depressing it is to realize that. <,<;;
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By Asura.Floppyseconds 2016-03-23 18:03:57
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Asura.Floppyseconds said: »
Sylph.Funkworkz said: »
Caitsith.Mahayaya said: »
For AHable items, having the breakdown of category an item is listed under would be so nice. 9/10 it's listed in Alchemy because all random crap is, but knowing where to look to buy stuff would be nice immediately on the item page. That could also be a useful enhancement to this site though...

This is a semi-completed project. There is no reliable way to automatically add this to an item page when I generate them upon being added to the game. That being said, a tag needs to be added manually. We have the majority of items with a category tag, but I believe this stopped sometime late 2014/early 2015. I will be sure to add finishing this to our list of things to do.

To see where we are at, look on the left in the navigation. You can see a dropdown menu that says Items. Click on Materials from there, and then you can see sub categories. These match the AH Materials category. Click on one from there and that is an incomplete list materials sorted alphabetically like the AH in-game.

This tag is also shown on item pages on the bottom in a category list. Remember, not all items are done so it is missing on newer pages.

Yeah, but no one is going to the materials page.

They want what is on the bottom of the page there, but since it isn't staring users in the face like on clopedia they don't know that Carp Sushi is under breads and rice and not seafood meanwhile it is tagged at the bottom for breads and rice.

While we both love the icon for the referenced pages link, Funk. My fear is clearly realized in the fact users don't know it is even a link.

Similar to the scroll icon on pages bringing you from the spell page to the scroll page where the NPC vendor and things would be contained. Why exactly did you guys split up scrolls and spells?
Oh god! I'm a User..!?
Anyone in Tech Support related fields will understand how disturbing, and depressing it is to realize that. <,<;;

Somedays I don't know if I am preforming humanitarian aid or just solving problems and getting work done with technology.
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By Asura.Floppyseconds 2016-03-24 19:00:27
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Asura.Floppyseconds said: »
I will go over the Vagary page items and review them (I have previously skimmed them before, but I am sure I missed a thing or two) either today or tomorrow and remedy that. Generally I am the one who fills in all those item pages, but there are just so many. Thank you for mentioning Dark Matter.

I have gone over all Vagary drops and either increased information or remedied all blank item pages.

I will talk to Fae about the DM augs.

Thank you for your input, Martel.
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By Asura.Floppyseconds 2016-03-25 18:08:20
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If anyone has ever wanted to edit the wiki, but felt they didn't know how or what to do.
My Sandbox contains pretty much anything you need for editing. In a really simple to do manner. Look at a couple of pages like la thiene cabbage or something, and you should be able to see how it all works.

Just figured I would throw that out there. Since it can be confusing what to do. It is really easy to do things though, overall.
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By Bahamut.Krizz 2016-03-29 10:33:59
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Asura.Floppyseconds said: »
While we both love the icon for the referenced pages link, Funk. My fear is clearly realized in the fact users don't know it is even a link.
I had no idea that was a link either. It's been annoying switching between wikis while trying to figure out the purpose to all these new fangled stones and crap I'm getting from the gobbie chest and random mobs I kill.

As a returning player, it's been extremely frustrating trying to figure certain things out. Now that I know this thread exists, I'll try to make note of issues I run across. I'm still very much behind the learning curve, so my 30 wiki tabs probably won't decrease anytime soon.
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By Asura.Floppyseconds 2016-03-31 00:14:35
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Bahamut.Krizz said: »
Asura.Floppyseconds said: »
While we both love the icon for the referenced pages link, Funk. My fear is clearly realized in the fact users don't know it is even a link.
I had no idea that was a link either. It's been annoying switching between wikis while trying to figure out the purpose to all these new fangled stones and crap I'm getting from the gobbie chest and random mobs I kill.

As a returning player, it's been extremely frustrating trying to figure certain things out. Now that I know this thread exists, I'll try to make note of issues I run across. I'm still very much behind the learning curve, so my 30 wiki tabs probably won't decrease anytime soon.

Funk, we need to do something about that icon on the template? How can we let users know what it is?

Ideally, I want to reach a point where you don't have to switch between wikis at all. I have been mass adding information each and every week.

Anyway, I am proud to announce the launching of my new fledgling project on BG Wiki!
I have been at work adding information for every food in the game.
I have learned to use foods I never even considered before thanks to my travels across the information.
It is not yet fully completed, and more tables like STP and Evasion foods need to be built, but here it is:
Attack Foods, Accuracy Foods, Defense Foods, Magic Accuracy Foods, and Pet Foods



While the pages need pictures or something I think I may need to rework the look of the tables because meh.
Once the information is in there it doesn't really matter as redesigning is easy compared to going page by page.
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By Bismarck.Josiahfk 2016-03-31 00:16:20
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Bahamut.Krizz said: »
Asura.Floppyseconds said: »
While we both love the icon for the referenced pages link, Funk. My fear is clearly realized in the fact users don't know it is even a link.
I had no idea that was a link either. It's been annoying switching between wikis while trying to figure out the purpose to all these new fangled stones and crap I'm getting from the gobbie chest and random mobs I kill.

As a returning player, it's been extremely frustrating trying to figure certain things out. Now that I know this thread exists, I'll try to make note of issues I run across. I'm still very much behind the learning curve, so my 30 wiki tabs probably won't decrease anytime soon.
Welcome back senor.

Yeah the new gobbie key abjuration stuff was a nice way to introduce the people behind the times into looking up deadly items and augmenting them
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2016-04-02 00:00:55
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Noticed that several job pages now sport a "strengths/weaknesses" section... Do we really need that? I'd expect that sort of content in a guide rather than on the job page itself, and I'm inclined to remove it.

Asking here because idk, I don't really have anywhere better to ask and I don't want to go reverting/deleting what's basically subjective content without some sort of dialogue first.
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2016-04-02 01:13:55
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Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
Noticed that several job pages now sport a "strengths/weaknesses" section... Do we really need that? I'd expect that sort of content in a guide rather than on the job page itself, and I'm inclined to remove it.

Asking here because idk, I don't really have anywhere better to ask and I don't want to go reverting/deleting what's basically subjective content without some sort of dialogue first.

https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/108127-Information-Redundancy-and-the-Failures-of-Wikis?p=6667206&viewfull=1#post6667206
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By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2016-04-02 01:17:33
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Works for me!
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By Asura.Floppyseconds 2016-04-02 02:26:01
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Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
Noticed that several job pages now sport a "strengths/weaknesses" section... Do we really need that? I'd expect that sort of content in a guide rather than on the job page itself, and I'm inclined to remove it.

Asking here because idk, I don't really have anywhere better to ask and I don't want to go reverting/deleting what's basically subjective content without some sort of dialogue first.

The guy adding it, Tatham or whatever. Not only have I had to remove and rewrite entire sections of his "Strenghts" and "Weaknesses" sections, but they might just give me an anuerism. ***, the BLU strengths and weaknesses section he did came close.

A weakness was how BLU was 'dependent on capping haste to reach its full DD potential'

I see you removed them, and that is fine with me because I really didn't like them all.
I don't want to discourage anyone from editing, but saying a weakness of WHM is that it takes "physical damage extremely poor" is just dumb.
Tatham has contributed useful information to Kirin's dragon thing I can't remember the name of though. Once I took his "AVs benediction has an additional effect of making your party want to throw in the towel" and moved it to the discussion page and rewrote that nonsense. Then he shaped up and added some more useful things or added to the talk page. Which is appreciated.

Anyway, thanks Night,

On another note I finished adding every food effect for Meats and Eggs besides Galkan Sausage (discrepancies between JP and NA info not to mention omitted info so I said *** it) today. That means all Seafood and Meats and Eggs are done. I am now moving onto Breads and Rice. This should be done in ~a week.
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By Bahamut.Vinedrius 2016-04-02 04:30:49
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Asura.Floppyseconds said: »
A weakness was how BLU was 'dependent on capping haste to reach its full DD potential'

lol wow. so other DDs don't need haste to reach their full potential huh?
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By Asura.Ladyofhonor 2016-04-02 05:03:07
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Bahamut.Vinedrius said: »
Asura.Floppyseconds said: »
A weakness was how BLU was 'dependent on capping haste to reach its full DD potential'

lol wow. so other DDs don't need haste to reach their full potential huh?

From the link earlier the notable BLU things mentioned is:

Arguably has the best Job Points and Gifts in the game.
Capable of self skillchaining.
Somewhat gear intensive.
Has a steeper learning curve than other jobs.

What DD isn't capable of self skillchaining...or gear intensive? And I really think learning curve is entirely subjective, I've met plenty BLU's that equip generic traits and CDC CDC CDC.
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By Asura.Floppyseconds 2016-04-02 19:52:29
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Bahamut.Vinedrius said: »
Asura.Floppyseconds said: »
A weakness was how BLU was 'dependent on capping haste to reach its full DD potential'

lol wow. so other DDs don't need haste to reach their full potential huh?

Hence why I deleted that when he put it lol.

Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »
Bahamut.Vinedrius said: »
Asura.Floppyseconds said: »
A weakness was how BLU was 'dependent on capping haste to reach its full DD potential'

lol wow. so other DDs don't need haste to reach their full potential huh?

From the link earlier the notable BLU things mentioned is:

Arguably has the best Job Points and Gifts in the game.
Capable of self skillchaining.
Somewhat gear intensive.
Has a steeper learning curve than other jobs.

What DD isn't capable of self skillchaining...or gear intensive? And I really think learning curve is entirely subjective, I've met plenty BLU's that equip generic traits and CDC CDC CDC.

Those DDs need capped haste for that. BLU has chain affinity is what he meant and why he said it.
We discussed the learning curve before and I told you spamming CDC CDC isn't being a BLU. This isn't about defining what a learning curve is though. It doesn't matter and the Tatham job weakness edits were of poor quality.
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By Odin.Llewelyn 2016-04-04 16:31:03
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For Reisenjima NMs (probably even just the T1s and T2s) I'd like to suggest listing the NMs' favored augment stone drop.
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By Asura.Floppyseconds 2016-04-04 21:55:45
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Odin.Llewelyn said: »
For Reisenjima NMs (probably even just the T1s and T2s) I'd like to suggest listing the NMs' favored augment stone drop.

I didn't even know they favor one, but it makes sense. One night I remarked "Wow we are getting tons of fern stones" to a scorpion and soulflayer T1 spam.

Any real data on this?
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By Odin.Llewelyn 2016-04-04 22:11:01
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Nothing written down or recorded, just similar testimonies. If requested, I can do an hour (or more) of each NM and report the stone drops from each. Of course, this will take a few days, but I've been meaning to farm stones for the sake of augmenting some stuff recently, anyway.
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By Rooks 2016-04-04 22:12:32
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FFXIDB doesn't give this info? Seems like that would be a good starting point.
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By Odin.Llewelyn 2016-04-04 22:13:26
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The mobs aren't recorded on FFXIDB from what I can see.

For starters, though, I think most people would agree that Selkit often drops Fern and Sang Buaya often drops Taupe.
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