Reisenjima T4s

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Reisenjima T4s
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-04-23 08:23:21
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Asura.Ladyofhonor said: »
T4's, barring SMN's, are still the hardest content in the game right now.
Well yes but:

1) They're nowhere as hard as they used to be and they already received multiple direct and indirect nerfs (even taking SMN out of the picture)

2) They're still the hardest content because... nothing else got added?


I don't think, in the post Adoulin era of FFXI, many content stayed "hardest in the game" for almost 2 years, and that didn't happen because new content was added more or less regularly, and so nobody was complaining that the "previously hardest content" was getting nerfed and/or becoming more accessible to other people.

I'm pretty confident 90% of the people who are currently whining right now wouldn't be doing that either if SE added more "harder" stuff.
That was kinda my point. What's really bad here it's not really that T4s are getting easier thanks to the SMN strategy (who cares? It's almost 2 years old content) or that T4s are easier (they got nerfed multiple times!) but more the fact that there's nothing else to be doing for hardcore gamers.
Omen is cool and everything but it's an incredibly slow gated grind and it's not really the same thing.
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-04-23 08:28:06
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Asura.Frod said: »
I still argue that content that has balancing by drastic HP scaling is terrible ***and pushes situations like this. If mobs had static HP and more forms of hard stops in fights, instead of straight zergfest nonsense. This would be a nonissue.
I kinda agree, but as I used to say in the old days: what is really bad to zerg strats to me is when you start applying them for EVERYTHING. When you have multiple relevant fights in the current end-game scene and only a few are zergable, I really don't mind zerg at all.
The issue comes when everything becomes a zerg, and at that point ***gets boring.
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 Asura.Frod
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By Asura.Frod 2017-04-23 08:30:37
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Omen is cool and everything but it's an incredibly slow gated grind and it's not really the same thing.

I'm done omen, what's your excuse?


I still say Glassy thinker is my favorite of the three to AF/AC spam.

The Omen bosses are great, Varied tactics for each, several have hard stops to prevent a zerg takedown, and they are generally all interesting. My only regret there is that none of them have charm/charmga.
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-04-23 08:35:59
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Asura.Frod said: »
I'm done omen, what's your excuse?
Wut? D:
Not getting what you meant here.

I like Omen eh! A lot, but it's clearly not challenging as T4s are (were?) and it's not content that was created with alliances in mind but PTs.
I like it a lot, bu it's not "the same thing" as I said before.

Also it's kinda getting old quick. I don't see myself doing daily Omen runs for 3 more years to cap all the items I want for all my jobs at the current cards rate.
Event is old enough to allow for better exchange rate and better drop rate.
I'm fine with the 20hr lockdown, but cards/run ratio is off for an event as old as Omen now is (it was fine at start I guess)
 Asura.Frod
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By Asura.Frod 2017-04-23 08:44:47
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It was sarcasm. I've got all my major drops (sans pet body) and 5/5d the +3 set.

My big complaint with omen is that nothing really warrants scales dropping that *** much. let us turn them into extra ou pops or something.
 Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2017-04-23 08:44:52
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FFXI right now is pretty great in that you can make melee, ranged, pet or mage method work on pretty much anything you want, but you still have to deal with NM mechanics, be very well geared with many different sets and be fairly involved in the fight. None of the methods have a very significant advantage over the other that doesn't involve a nearly equal disadvantage(obviously some exceptions).

But why bother with any of that. Any pragmatist would tell themselves 'why should I go above and beyond to make these other setups work when all I need to do is get a 6man conduit group together and faceroll the hardest NMs in the game.' No one can blame them; it's significantly cheaper, safer and faster to do it this way. My issue is not with the people doing it, I do not blame them at all, but I think it's incredibly hard to dispute that it's also unhealthy for the game overall going forward.
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 Asura.Frod
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By Asura.Frod 2017-04-23 08:53:43
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Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
FFXI right now is pretty great in that you can make melee, ranged, pet or mage method work on pretty much anything you want, but you still have to deal with NM mechanics, be very well geared with many different sets and be fairly involved in the fight. None of the methods have a very significant advantage over the other that doesn't involve a nearly equal disadvantage(obviously some exceptions).

But why bother with any of that. Any pragmatist would tell themselves 'why should I go above and beyond to make these other setups work when all I need to do is get a 6man conduit group together and faceroll the hardest NMs in the game.' No one can blame them; it's significantly cheaper, safer and faster to do it this way. My issue is not with the people doing it, I do not blame them at all, but I think it's incredibly hard to dispute that it's also unhealthy for the game overall going forward.


The heavier problem is that you can't use those melee or mage or ranged setups without being penalized for it. It's even more of an uphill climb to use a balanced setup due to hp scaling.
 Sylph.Cherche
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By Sylph.Cherche 2017-04-23 09:22:29
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Okay, since you missed my previous point; why would you use a more balanced setup when you can just do an 18 man conduit setup instead?
 Asura.Frod
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By Asura.Frod 2017-04-23 09:30:21
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Sylph.Cherche said: »
Okay, since you missed my previous point; why would you use a more balanced setup when you can just do an 18 man conduit setup instead?


Why use smn when i could throw 18 pups at it. or 18 drgs at it (and laugh?).

Because it'd be a hell of alot easier to make a balanced setup than to find a dozen smn?


The problem isn't simply because i can throw 3-6-12 or 18 smn at it. the problem is i'm actively being punished by HP scaling mechanics for not throwing a specific setup at it.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-04-23 09:32:53
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You're not being actively punished, you're losing the benefits of what is very clearly an overpowered setup. No other setup is crying that HP scales.

Just the fact you see it that way shows how ridiculous the whole argument is.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-04-23 09:37:27
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Asura.Frod said: »
I still argue that content that has balancing by drastic HP scaling is terrible ***and pushes situations like this. If mobs had static HP and more forms of hard stops in fights, instead of straight zergfest nonsense. This would be a nonissue.

Do it wouldn't. The issue is that a small group of SMN's can burn down all content in less then 60s. SE developers did not intend for content to be done that way, they have several mechanics that are of strategic importance to the fight. SMN's unzipping their pants, pissing on all the other players while saying "get on my level bro" isn't something that's healthy for the game in the long term.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameBreaker

Quote:
An often controversial element of gameplay that unexpectedly trumps all others. Depending upon who you ask, it may or may not be considered cheating. A Game Breaker is a legitimate element of the game used in an unintended way. The Meta Game ends up revolving around who can get the Game Breaker (or use it on the other) first, resulting in Gameplay Derailment.

Quote:
Game Breakers are often controversial and subjective. Rarely do people actually agree on what is and is not game-breaking. Heated debates (or worse) over Game Breakers spread like wildfire on the Internet, or even around the house. It's obvious that the extremes of the Munchkin or the Scrub are wrong. However, there are techniques whose power is hard or even impossible to call.

Quote:
Note that this is not another word for 'overpowered'. To be a true game breaker, the ability or character in question must be so hideously unbalanced that it makes people just quit the game in disgust. It's so powerful that there are only two kinds of people: the ones that use it, and the ones that lose to it. That's why people quit in disgust: it destroys all semblance of choice, and quite possibly all semblance of fun. Your available tactics are now limited to one—the one that works. And what if you don't like that tactic? What if it's a gun in a game where you prefer swordplay? What if it involves Attack! Attack! Attack! when you're more of a defensive turtler? What if it requires you to play the Mighty Glacier but you're a Fragile Speedster player? Well, then, it sucks to be you. You can play the game the way you want to, and lose... or you can follow the crowd, and maybe win. Small wonder some players Take a Third Option and Rage Quit instead.

FFXI isn't a competitive RPG but there is competition when it comes to shouts and grouping. This has given rise to those charging a few hundred mil to sell people Aeonic clears and doing the entire thing in a few hours. SMN AC zerging is hideously OP, it breaks the game. No amount of "buff other jobs but let me keep my crown" is going to save SMN. I just hope the nerf isn't too terrible.
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 Ragnarok.Inx
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By Ragnarok.Inx 2017-04-23 09:42:10
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Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
But why bother with any of that. Any pragmatist would tell themselves 'why should I go above and beyond to make these other setups work when all I need to do is get a 6man conduit group together and faceroll the hardest NMs in the game.'

Why are you fighting T4's if not for Aeonic credit? And lets face it, very few people are doing that for Khatvangas! So ironically SMN as a job gains very little from it.
 Ragnarok.Primex
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By Ragnarok.Primex 2017-04-23 09:58:11
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Alternatively they could leave SMN as is and introduce new content that heavily resists certains types of damage - similar to the Souleater/KC or Critical Hit nerfs. I'd be ok with that. It doesn't address what I believe the core issue with pet jobs in particular; there is way less risk in using pets. But that's another topic all together and one that never ends well (Phuoc - looking at you bro, *** BST)
 Asura.Frod
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By Asura.Frod 2017-04-23 10:00:28
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
You're not being actively punished, you're losing the benefits of what is very clearly an overpowered setup. No other setup is crying that HP scales.

Just the fact you see it that way shows how ridiculous the whole argument is.


A group of 8 has a harder fight than a group of 6. A Group of 12 has a much harder fight than a group of 6. A group of 18 probably can't clear what a group of 6 can.

If i bring any setup that requires extra slots, I'm actively being punished for it.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-04-23 10:22:00
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Asura.Frod said: »
A group of 8 has a harder fight than a group of 6. A Group of 12 has a much harder fight than a group of 6. A group of 18 probably can't clear what a group of 6 can.

If i bring any setup that requires extra slots, I'm actively being punished for it.

Odd, I have 12 chars and I don't feel any more challenged bringing all of them than bringing less. I don't even have any trouble clearing most of them with my 12 and 6 leeches. For most setups, not needing to overlap buff jobs makes more people that much better. A single GEO can handle debuffs for the whole alliance. A single RDM or single BRD can handle threnody/frazzle for the whole alliance. More people means more options. It means more defensive capability. More buffs. The fight may have more hp, but the increase in number of players helps significantly more than the increase in HP hurts if you have competent players.

Guess it's just because I can handle the fight mechanics and am not relying on cheesing it with SMN burns.
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 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-04-23 10:41:01
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Odd, I have 12 chars and I don't feel any more challenged bringing all of them than bringing less. I don't even have any trouble clearing most of them with my 12 and 6 leeches.

I'm glad you don't have any trouble using your set-up.
Neither do others using a different set-up.
Sounds like balance to me?

Also, what's cheesier:
1) Multi-boxing T4s so you don't need to coordinate with anyone else in a MMO?
2) Coordinating with other players but using the same job in a MMO?
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 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-04-23 10:43:17
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I also run a linkshell where I play less than 6 characters out of an 18-man alliance and have no trouble clearing them without SMN in that group either. Swing and a miss, champ.

It's quite a stretch to call SMN burning coordinating, as well. You put up 2 rolls, GEO puts up 2 buffs, RUN uses odyllic subterfuge so nothing will hurt you, and SMNs mash a single macro. To compare that to the fight flow with any other setup is laughable.
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 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-04-23 10:50:38
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You play less than a third of your linkshell. Congrats?

I doubt SE intended us to beat things that way, should nerf that.
Actually, I doubt SE intended us to beat anything, should nerf all the things?

My point is, who cares? So it wasn't me that missed it. You did.
I don't really care if you play your whole crew. Your Master Trial video was super impressive. But it also doesn't effect me in any way. It also has no influence on how I play or enjoy this game.
Why are your panties so knotted up over how other people are playing? If you don't like it, play another way. With other people (or yourself, as the case may be). We share a sandbox, but we can do whatever we want in it. Please respect others and don't piss on their sand castles.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-04-23 10:52:32
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Having a cheesy thought-free instant win devalues the content, shortens the length of the game, and generally reduces the fun factor. If you don't see that, that's not anyone's problem but your own. We can argue about it until the end of time, with or without reaching a consensus, but SE still has the final say on whether it'll be nerfed or not.

Hint: It will.
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 Fenrir.Cherrywine
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By Fenrir.Cherrywine 2017-04-23 11:03:08
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Maybe they will, maybe they won't. But they ruin everything they touch. That hurts the game more than validating your position would.

Besides, it isn't instant. It takes 60 seconds, I'm told. So many exaggerations.

People shouldn't have to code to do well at this game.
You win with superior automation.
Others shouldn't be excluded if they lack that. So they use other strategies. What is cheesy is subjective.
Are they excluding you from content? No, you say they aren't. Are you excluding them from content? Maybe. Are SMN burns stealing your buyers? Maybe, I don't know. I really don't know why you care soooooo much.

Going to kill a bunch of Aeonic mobs without SMNs. (I really am.) Peace out.
 Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2017-04-23 11:22:03
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FFXI is still very special among MMOs in that it allows and even encourages many different strategies to accomplish a wide variety of content. What conduit burn is currently doing is exactly the same as what happened with Kclub DRK, Blood Rage WAR during VW and MNK during Delve. Each of these methods became so above and beyond more safe/efficient/easy that it not only encouraged everyone to hop on the bandwagon, it also muzzled every other potential strategy from seeing the light of day because everyone was so familiar/dead set on sticking to the current easiest meta that nothing else could thrive.

I have never remembered a time in the history of FFXI that so many different strategies have existed in harmony to accomplish the same goals. The only outlier right now is conduit burn, and if left unchecked, it will(and is now) leading to the phasing out of all the other strategies in the future.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-04-23 11:27:33
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Ragnarok.Primex said: »
Alternatively they could leave SMN as is and introduce new content that heavily resists certains types of damage - similar to the Souleater/KC or Critical Hit nerfs. I'd be ok with that. It doesn't address what I believe the core issue with pet jobs in particular; there is way less risk in using pets. But that's another topic all together and one that never ends well (Phuoc - looking at you bro, *** BST)

SMN BP damage is the same as any other melee type damage, it's not like BLM bursting which smacks into the resist wall with more then one nuker. SMN during AC is like having several WAR's with a no-weakness Auto-Reraise effect plus Auto-Buff Might Strikes effect doing 20~40K every 2~3 seconds while being in high defense gear.

Outside of AC zerg SMN is perfectly balanced, does great damage from a nice safe distance, can SC, has multiple useful buffs and debuffs, and ultimately is really nice to have in the proper setup. This is why I don't want to see them nerfed too hard, there should be a viable strategy centered around safe pet jobs, it just shouldn't be this "Everything dead in 60s or less" strategy that it's become. SE's become a lot better at targeting nerfs without obliterating jobs, that gives me hope the reduce will be to AC or to BP damage at low pet TP values.
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 Ragnarok.Inx
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By Ragnarok.Inx 2017-04-23 11:36:48
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Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
I have never remembered a time in the history of FFXI that so many different strategies have existed in harmony to accomplish the same goals. The only outlier right now is conduit burn, and if left unchecked, it will(and is now) leading to the phasing out of all the other strategies in the future.

I see no evidence of it being much of a trend at all though. Who exactly is doing this? Its funny, I've been challenged twice in this topic about employing a tactic based (presumably) on the single fact that I have a bunch of Aeonics and also happen to play SMN.

Seems to me that there are a lot of assumptions being made about how widespread zerging is.
 Ragnarok.Ejiin
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By Ragnarok.Ejiin 2017-04-23 11:46:43
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Have you really not noticed all the new Nirvana in the past couple months on both the JP and NA side on Ragnarok alone? I'm nearly positive it's catching on like wildfire.

When one setup can do 2M damage in 30 seconds while the other can't even break 1M, you're now in kclub territory. Do you really think SE designed AV to be zerged in 30seconds by 6 kclub DRKs? Nope! We're literally in the exact same situation right now.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-04-23 11:51:31
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Currently you have the following setups off the top of my head

BLM's burst off SCH SC's (contrary to opinion this still works great, the difference is your BLM's and support need actual good gear to do high level content).

Super Buffed Melees (same as above, need really good gear)

Ranger distance strat (used when getting close is dangerous like on Schah or Vini)

Buffed pets (non-SMN zerg), similar to both melee and ranger method.


Then the super situational ones like

SMN Mewing rotation + Storing TP + SA WS

DD RUN tanks

Melee multi-step SC

And now 30~60s SMN AC zerging.

All the top ones take anywhere from 6 to 35 minutes depending on fight, method used and often luck of NM TP moves. SMN method takes ... a minute or less and the target generally isn't alive long enough to do something dangerous. It's ok for a specific setup to be better in a specific fight then others, but it's not good for a specific setup to be better on ALL fights by a few orders of magnitude.
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-04-23 11:55:03
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Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
Have you really not noticed all the new Nirvana in the past couple months on both the JP and NA side on Ragnarok alone? I'm nearly positive it's catching on like wildfire.

When one setup can do 2M damage in 30 seconds while the other can't even break 1M, you're now in kclub territory. Do you really think SE designed AV to be zerged in 30seconds by 6 kclub DRKs? Nope! We're literally in the exact same situation right now.

Same on Asura, ***tons of SMN's running around and it's all the rage. Every shout for every fight, even Escha T1's, are asking for SMN's. Not shitting you, saw shouts for Serket and a few others wanting to do SMN burn on them, was a really O.o moment.
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By Ragnarok.Inx 2017-04-23 12:06:38
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Honestly, no. But we're EU time-zone so its not like there's a great deal of activity generally. :D

To be perfectly honest, we've got a couple of members making Nirvanas at the moment, but there's been no pressure to do that and there are plenty of other RME in progress for jobs that aren't so hyped, when alls said and done there's not much else to work on these days.
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-04-23 12:10:20
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"There is nothing really wrong with AC SMN zergs"...

"We have a few members making Nirvana's...."

Yeah....
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By Blazed1979 2017-04-23 12:26:54
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Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
Have you really not noticed all the new Nirvana in the past couple months on both the JP and NA side on Ragnarok alone? I'm nearly positive it's catching on like wildfire.
I know 4 people, 5 including myself, that will be done within 2 weeks with i119 Nirvana.
And other than my main jobs,(PLD/WAR/MNK/DRK), everything else I bandwagon the ***out of.
If prime is making a mythic you better recognize its worth nerfing lol
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 Ragnarok.Phuoc
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By Ragnarok.Phuoc 2017-04-23 12:30:10
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Blazed1979 said: »
Ragnarok.Ejiin said: »
Have you really not noticed all the new Nirvana in the past couple months on both the JP and NA side on Ragnarok alone? I'm nearly positive it's catching on like wildfire.
I know 4 people, 5 including myself, that will be done within 2 weeks with i119 Nirvana.
And other than my main jobs,(PLD/WAR/MNK/DRK), everything else I bandwagon the ***out of.
If prime is making a mythic you better recognize its worth nerfing lol

lolMNK!!
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