PUP Melee Discussion

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PUP Melee discussion
 Shiva.Rickis
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By Shiva.Rickis 2016-01-04 02:34:01
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Thanks to Trulusia, we have a very good thread for tanking on PUP, let's go for a DD role?

I am now on 1700ish JP, however still doing low damage output...let's discuss!
 Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia
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By Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia 2016-01-04 07:06:37
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I wrote a big long thing, but I decided to delete it. It's too long of a discussion and I'm pretty negative about the whole thing.

Best way to do damage on PUP is:

Step 1: Go into Mog House

Step 2: Pick a different job.

Step 3: Play that, unless it's one of the OTHER bad DDs. Or not a DD at all, I guess.
 Caitsith.Mahayaya
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By Caitsith.Mahayaya 2016-01-04 07:28:16
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MNK shouldn't really be in any better situation atm though right?
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By dustinfoley 2016-01-04 07:41:06
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Pretty much all DD at the moment works like this:

Tank ws -> Cor ws -> darkness/light sc -> magic burst for a BAZILLION DMG

So the extent to pup dd is using their pet to tank and open a skill chain with them or their pet.

Our blm is so awful it doesnt even matter, we need gear with Pet macc +40/mab+40/mburst dmg +10 otherwise at best, were looking at 9k bursts when a blm/geo/sch is doing 70k+ and thats if the nuke even lands.

EDIT:
also we have 0 ae compared to other jobs so theres that too :-/
 Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia
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By Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia 2016-01-04 07:47:14
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Caitsith.Mahayaya said: »
MNK shouldn't really be in any better situation atm though right?

Nope. H2H WS are shitty. Dot is pretty good though.

dustinfoley said: »
Pretty much all DD at the moment works like this:

Tank ws -> Cor ws -> darkness/light sc -> magic burst for a BAZILLION DMG

So the extent to pup dd is using their pet to tank and open a skill chain with them or their pet.

Our blm is so awful it doesnt even matter, we need gear with Pet macc +40/mab+40/mburst dmg +10 otherwise at best, were looking at 9k bursts when a blm/geo/sch is doing 70k+ and thats if the nuke even lands.

EDIT:
also we have 0 ae compared to other jobs so theres that too :-/

You can do okayish damage with BLM frame, it's just unreliable and worse than all but the worst of BLM. About on par with a Red Mage though.
 Sylph.Safiyyah
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By Sylph.Safiyyah 2016-01-04 10:35:49
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Caitsith.Mahayaya said: »
MNK shouldn't really be in any better situation atm though right?

Well, monk should be 20-25% ahead in melee dps compared to puppetmaster. I updated my pup and monk dps spreadsheets with pre-Reisenjima gear, and that's about where pup fell, to the extent that different jobs are comparable with spreadsheets.

Overall, no, monk is in a worse situation than pupppetmaster, finally. PUP at least has a niche with automaton tanking. Monk is purely melee damage, and in that it's bested by, at the least, dancer, blue mage, and samurai.
 Cerberus.Jiko
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By Cerberus.Jiko 2016-01-04 12:10:36
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In otherwords, don't bother wasting your time on a master's set. Stick to pet -DT onry! ;)
 Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia
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By Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia 2016-01-04 13:36:57
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Cerberus.Jiko said: »
In otherwords, don't bother wasting your time on a master's set. Stick to pet -DT onry! ;)

I wouldn't go that far. PUP is still a great job for doing most content solo. Just don't expect to win any parses. PUP also has a lot of neat, fun tricks when you have more than one PUP in the party. They're incredibly good at duo/trio setups with other PUPs.

Is it a fantastic DD? No. Is it an okay DD? Yes. It's the trade off for being able to cover so many things for a group. And Overdrive is absolutely bonkers. It's up there for best SP abilities in the game.
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By Cerberus.Jiko 2016-01-04 13:54:18
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It was a bit of a joke going off of what you said earlier. Dry humour. :p
 Shiva.Rickis
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By Shiva.Rickis 2016-01-04 19:34:18
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Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia said: »
I wrote a big long thing, but I decided to delete it. It's too long of a discussion and I'm pretty negative about the whole thing.

Best way to do damage on PUP is:

Step 1: Go into Mog House

Step 2: Pick a different job.

Step 3: Play that, unless it's one of the OTHER bad DDs. Or not a DD at all, I guess.

nope, I love pup. Just want to figure out how to make it better and want to contribute more to pt in damage. Still having some confusion that as I see your puppet can make 14k damage on WS during OD but mine is only 7k. wondering what goes wrong.
 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2016-01-04 20:56:09
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In the current game, hybrid master/automaton DD set is actually REALLY effective as a "self" SC job to open for nukers in CP parties on Apex mobs. Use both Inhibitors for Store TP and to make puppet hold TP to close your SC, and also both turbo chargers, optic fiber, Coilers, and acc attachments for rest of Thunder slots (Target Marker + whatever other acc you can fit). I generally prefer Sharpshot frame, but VE works too - though when I use SS it's usually more me, 1-2 mage friends, and a trust tank/healer/support.

Similarly, I've done very well gearing for full master DD as a SC starter with another DD while using my puppet to tank. For instance, automaton tank (using my master DD gear it still works fine) BLU PUP BLM BLM SMN trust healer. Pummel > CDC > MBs ahoy.

I use something like the below as my hybrid set and generally find TP gain relatively close between myself and my puppet. If one of us is lagging behind in TP, I'll simply swap into a full master-focused or full pet-focused set (capped automaton gear haste as the priority > acc > DA).
ItemSet 340924
Taeon pieces have Pet: haste+5%, DA+5, and Accuracy+20~25.

My current master TP set:
ItemSet 340922
- If more Acc needed, I swap in Olseni Belt and Brutal>Zennaroi earring as my first choices.
- Taeon hat has TA+2 Acc/Atk+20 STR/DEX+6
- I also have a Herculean Helm with TA+4% STR+something Acc+something (but a fairly small amount), but I tend to prefer Taeon for higher accuracy and crit rate+2% over the additional TA on Herc. KKK AM3 makes the TA a little less valuable to me though, so would maybe be a different story for non-Mythic PUPs.

And my current WS set (Smite posted here, but basically same thing for Smite and Pummel):
ItemSet 340925
I'm guessing some Herculean pieces can beat the above, but I haven't gotten to augmenting Herc for WS yet (just TP gear).

Fully pet-focused DD set:
ItemSet 340926
- All Taeon shown have Haste+5% DA+5% Acc+20~25
- Yeah I know it's overkill on automaton haste, so I can take off any of the Taeon pieces for another option if desired. Probably Pitre Tobe+1, maybe Herculean Gloves solely for master stats.
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By dustinfoley 2016-01-05 07:08:11
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
.
ItemSet 340924
Taeon pieces have Pet: haste+5%, DA+5, and Accuracy+20~25.

With the big issue of with that set your pet will have decent acc but you wont and on apex mobs if you cant build tp fast to WS you really slow the group down, since 99% of the dmg comes from magic bursts.


On a side note, since 99% of apex groups want corsair, here are the light/darkness skill chains for either pup/pet/corsair combos

(darkness)

String Shredder > Leaden Salute (M)
Leaden Salute (M) > String Shredder
Wildfire (E) > String Shredder
Asuran Fists > String Shredder
Stringing Pummel (M) > String Shredder
Shijin Spiral > Bone Crusher
Armor Shatterer > Dragon Kick
Armor Shatterer > Victory Smite (E)

(light)
Bone Crusher > Detonator
Bone Crusher > Heavy Shot
Bone Crusher > Last Stand
Armor Shatterer > Coronach (R)
Armor Shatterer > Trueflight (M)
Coronach (R) > Armor Shatterer
Trueflight (M) > Armor Shatterer
Dragon Kick > Armor Shatterer
Victory Smite (E) > Armor Shatterer
Dragon Kick > Detonator
Dragon Kick > Heavy Shot
Dragon Kick > Last Stand
Shijin Spiral > Coronach (R)
Shijin Spiral > Trueflight (M)
Victory Smite (E) > Detonator
Victory Smite (E) > Heavy Shot
Victory Smite (E) > Last Stand
Coronach (R) > Shijin Spiral
Detonator > Dragon Kick
Detonator > Victory Smite (E)
Heavy Shot > Dragon Kick
Heavy Shot > Victory Smite (E)
Last Stand > Dragon Kick
Last Stand > Victory Smite (E)
Trueflight (M) > Shijin Spiral
 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2016-01-05 07:42:19
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Caitsith.Mahayaya said: »
MNK shouldn't really be in any better situation atm though right?
Well... Monk has better gear choices, but those alone do not create a huge difference in the final output I'm afraid.
MNK also has some moderate DPS JAs and traits: more base MA (altough PUP can get JPs for that...), Footwork, Kick Attack, another acc JA to alternate with Aggressor, more HP for survivability, slightly higher base stats etc.
PUP has the additional damage from pet though, granted it's not impressive it still matters when you add it up.


tl;dr
In the end I think they're probably pretty close to each other.


I wouldn't say that PUP sucks completely as a DD. The majority of the current issue is that lately the game focus has shifted from DD damage to mage damage (more specifically SC+MB).
If it weren't for that, PUP wouldn't be the top DD for sure, but it would surely be quite a viable DD in the majority of content.
But given the current (bad) situation of DDs, only those which really came to shine noticeably above others for one reason or another are considered "worth". Part of this way of reasoning is true I suppose, but another big part is just bias, stereotypes and "habits". People see some groups succeding with certain setups, and everybody else follow like sheeps instead of trying to find new ways to do stuff.
Not pointing fingers btw, just saying how I think things are.
 Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia
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By Quetzalcoatl.Trulusia 2016-01-05 08:10:05
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It's weird to me when I see people stacking accuracy for the pet. The only times I need accuracy on my pet are... Kirin, Vir'ava, Reisenjima T3s+ and Apex Umbrils in Ra'kaznar. Automatons have so much more accuracy than anything else in the game, it's kinda ridiculous. Single thunder target marker and shiromochi will cap you against average apex mobs. Triple thunder caps me against 139 Apex Umbrils without food. If I spent a bit of time to do the math, I could probably figure out a better setup for that, but I don't need JP anymore :/

It occurs to me that some people probably don't know this, but Automatons have the best accuracy bonus in the game. It's a straight 10% bonus to whatever the base is. If your automaton has 1000 base accuracy, you actually will have 1100 accuracy. That's why stacking raw accuracy is better than DEX usually on Reisenjima gear. 30 accuracy becomes 33 accuracy, whereas 25 accuracy and 10dex would only be 32 accuracy.

Anyway. I'm lazy any I'm probably never going to finish that guide, so I'll just post my information here on occasion.

Here's all the puppet WSs.

Chimera Ripper
Base stat: ftp 5.0, Accuracy +100
Skillchain: Detonation/Induration
Modifier stat: STR50%
TP1000: ftp 5.0
TP2000: ftp 7.5
TP3000: ftp 10.0

String Clipper
Base stat: Twofold attack, ftp 2.5, Attack +25%
Skillchain: Scission
Modifier stat: STR30%, DEX30%
TP1000: Accuracy±0
TP2000: Accuracy +50
TP3000: Accuracy +100

Cannibal Blade
Base stat: Melee skill x 1.5 (*)
Skillchain: Compression/Reverb
Modifier stat: MND100%
TP1000: Melee skill x 1.5
TP2000: Melee skill x 22.5
TP3000: Melee skill x 30.0

Bone Crusher
Base stat: Threefold attack, ftp 1.66(transfers all hits), Additional effect: Stun, Against undead: 2.66(That's why my Bone crushers are so strong in that video.)
Skillchain: Fragmentation
Modifier stat: VIT60%(If not for this ***, best pup ws in game)
TP1000: no effect
TP2000: no effect
TP3000: no effect

String Shredder
Base stat: Threefold attack, ftp 0.5(String Shredder sucks), Accuracy +10, Attack +36%
Skillchain: Distortion/Scission
Modifier stat: VIT50%
TP1000: Critical +20%
TP2000: Critical +40%
TP3000: Critical +70%

Arcuballista
Base stat: ftp 6.0, Accuracy+100
Skillchain: Liquefaction/Transfixion
Modifier stat: DEX60%
TP1000: ftp 6.0
TP2000: ftp 9.0
TP3000: ftp 12.0

Daze
Base stat: ftp 5.0, Accuracy+150, Additional effect: Stun
Skillchain: Impaction/Transfixion
Modifier stat: DEX100%
TP1000: ftp 5.0
TP2000: ftp 7.5
TP3000: ftp 10.0

Armor Piercer
Base stat: ftp 3.0, Accuracy+100, Defense ignored -50%
Skillchain: Gravitation
Modifier stat: DEX60%
TP1000: ftp 3.0
TP2000: ftp 4.5
TP3000: ftp 6.0

Armor Shatterer
Base stat: ftp 5.0, Accuracy +50, Additional effect: reduced defense -15% (90 seconds), Attack +125%
Skillchain: Fusion/Impaction
Modifier stat: DEX50%
TP1000: Extended effect duration for additional effect±0%
TP2000: Extended effect duration for additional effect+33%
TP3000: Extended effect duration for additional effect+66%

Slapstick
Base stat: Threefold attack, ftp 1.66(transfers all hits)
Skillchain: Reverb/Impact(I'm getting lazy on this)
Modifier stat: STR30%, DEX30%
TP1000: Accuracy ±0
TP2000: Accuracy +40
TP3000: Accuracy +80

Knockout
Base stat: ftp 5.0, Accuracy +50, Additional effect: reduced evasion -10% (30 seconds)
Skillchain: Scission/Detonation
Modifier stat: AGI100%
TP1000: ftp 5.0
TP2000: ftp 7.5
TP3000: ftp 10.0

Magic Mortar
Base stat: Damage varies depending on automaton’s remaining HP
Skillchain: Fusion/Liquefacation
Modifier stat: none
TP1000: Half damage
TP2000: Slightly less than 1 for 1.
TP3000: 1.5 times damage
Note: Doesn't *** work right with Flame Holder and SE knows it but doesn't care
[+]
 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2016-01-05 13:02:46
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dustinfoley said: »
Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
.
ItemSet 340924
Taeon pieces have Pet: haste+5%, DA+5, and Accuracy+20~25.

With the big issue of with that set your pet will have decent acc but you wont and on apex mobs if you cant build tp fast to WS you really slow the group down, since 99% of the dmg comes from magic bursts.

The pet pieces in the hybrid set I posted are more important for automaton haste (and for Pitre+1 body, Store TP), not accuracy. I actually found that with that set on Apex mobs, if one or the other of master/pet gains TP faster, it's still the master.

Remember too that I said I swap into a full master TP set or pet TP set if one of us is really lagging behind.

I assume it's harder for non-KKK PUPs to keep the SC rate extremely high, since Mythic AM3 OA2-3x for master AND puppet really keeps the SCs flowing at a good speed. But still, same general principle applies.

That being said, I don't usually bother joining "ideal" built CP parties with CORs. I CP with friends only, on the jobs they want to CP on, and fill with trusts (commonly 2-4 players and trust healer + support). Just so happens that there's always someone wanting CP on a nuking job to do some MBs: lots of BLMs, SCHs, GEOs...
 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2016-01-05 13:19:54
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**EDIT: Whoops, sorry for accidental double post**

Asura.Sechs said: »
Caitsith.Mahayaya said: »
MNK shouldn't really be in any better situation atm though right?
Well... Monk has better gear choices, but those alone do not create a huge difference in the final output I'm afraid.
MNK also has some moderate DPS JAs and traits: more base MA (altough PUP can get JPs for that...), Footwork, Kick Attack, another acc JA to alternate with Aggressor, more HP for survivability, slightly higher base stats etc.
PUP has the additional damage from pet though, granted it's not impressive it still matters when you add it up.

I don't think MNK really has significantly better gear choices. TP/WS sets are going to look nearly the same for both. Unless using a JSE weapon (Mythic for each job, possible Escha-Ru'aun JSE H2H), even the weapons are likely the same.

MNK gets Dampening Tam and an ammo slot that PUP doesn't have access to, you're probably using a different back piece. Otherwise it's probably the same TP sets (Herc hands/feet, Rawhide vest, Samnuha legs, same earrings/rings/belts/neck).

WS set is probably identical, minus MNK using an ammo piece.

Really Impetus, Focus, Kick Attacks, and the fairly recently improved Footwork are the big DD differences. That IS enough to make MNK a little stronger from a DD perspective... but that's before you account for the puppet.

PUP can tank stuff with a puppet WHILE DDing with the master, or use a WHM puppet, or self Haste II with RDM puppet, or add some DD (or self-SC potential) with a DD puppet. It's the additional utility in addition to an "almost as good" DD that makes PUP probably preferable to MNK these days.
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By Caitsith.Mahayaya 2016-01-05 13:31:11
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Forgot that MNK gets Adhemar and PUP doesn't. But yeah, the utility from pet probably surpasses anything that a MNK could bring to the table.
 Phoenix.Capuchin
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2016-01-05 13:36:47
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Caitsith.Mahayaya said: »
Forgot that MNK gets Adhemar and PUP doesn't. But yeah, the utility from pet probably surpasses anything that a MNK could bring to the table.

Which Adhemar pieces does MNK really use now in post-Reisenjima FFXI?

Head maybe, but is still basically a sidegrade to max Dampening Tam (though in either case, yeah that's a slot where MNK has advantage over PUP using Herc or Taeon). Most MNKs would still be gearing the other 4 slots just like PUP - Herc for hands/feet, Samnuha or maybe Herc for legs, and probably Rawhide Body. Maaaybe Adhemar body, but it isn't as strong when you don't care about DW like a BLU might so isn't really a huge difference from what PUP has access to.

Unless of course you have multiple Adhemar+1 pieces for set bonus... but that's so unrealistic for most players that I basically don't even consider it.

As for WS, PUP and MNK have better options with Rao/Ryuo/Herc than anything Adhemar brings to the table. The Adhemar pieces you might use for WS on other jobs are generally for DEX WS like CDC, but MNK PUP are gonna care about STR for Smite/Pummel/Ascetic's.
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