Sic And Reward Radius Nerf Vs LARGE Scale Mobs

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Sic and reward radius nerf vs LARGE scale mobs
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By Panthur 2015-11-17 16:05:39
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Playing around in legion and other places with large sized mobs. My pet is somewhere near me but not close enough in the wall of mobs to be able to sic or even reward. The radius is so ridiculously short, that I can't even find my pet in the pile to move closer to it and so it and/or me both die. Wonderful. What the heck brought this stupidity on?

Shorten the radius fine, but what the heck? How am I supposed to move to my pet if I can't even see where it is? Give us long time experienced bsts a job point ability or gift after x amount of job points if you're worried about inexperienced newbie bsts throwing pets at stuff. Why change it now after 14 years?

/rant.
/mumbles about pets being deaf, blind and stupid.
/yet I can still use mulsum just fine...grape juice needs to stack gdmit!! :P
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 Quetzalcoatl.Beaztmaster
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By Quetzalcoatl.Beaztmaster 2015-11-17 16:52:41
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Sometimes when my pet is stuck fighting in a mob sandwich, I use Heel to reposition. If I want to know where my pet is, I just do /target <pet>
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 Shiva.Hiep
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By Shiva.Hiep 2015-11-17 17:04:07
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By Panthur 2015-11-17 17:27:15
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That's great but i'm on sattalite, I don't have the speed to do that before one of us dies unfortunately.
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By Quetzalcoatl.Beaztmaster 2015-11-17 18:15:39
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Oh no :(

If those suggestions are too much, I would also recommend adjusting your camera angle more towards the ground before running in so that you can see where your pet is amongst the forest of mob legs & feet. Furthermore, your pet will appear as a yellow dot on your radar, which you can use as a reference, with the inner & outer rings serving as means to estimate distance. These methods don't require hitting more pet macros/typing more commands like what I recommended in my first post.

If you are using trusts, you should be better off too. When I do use trusts, I keep a Moogle out as one of them for the constant refresh, allowing me to keep up some MP for a mage sub job.
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-11-17 20:53:40
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Panthur said: »
Why change it now after 14 years?

Because BST's were smashing everything while watching youtube videos. Everybody else had to worry about positioning and something called "Situational Awareness" while BST just kinda chilled in the back snacking on Cheetos while their disposable pets shredded everything. It got pretty obscene when every single content turned into "throw BSTs at it for easy win". Not always the fastest but definitely the easiest, least complicated way to win anything. SE had to either add complexity to controlling the pets or severely nerf their stats, they chose the first rather then the second.

And yes the radius should be centered on the pet not the target, I believe they said they are looking into a way to fix it.
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 Asura.Baddog
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By Asura.Baddog 2015-11-17 22:56:20
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Asura.Saevel said: »
And yes the radius should be centered on the pet not the target, I believe they said they are looking into a way to fix it.

They just fixed that on this update

Quote:
Beastmaster
Familiars have been added as targets for the following abilities and pet commands.

Reward / Sic / Snarl / Spur / Run Wild

just edit your macro to <pet> instead of <t> for sic
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By Panthur 2015-11-18 02:30:36
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Hmm i'l give that a try. See if it improve my horrible luck any.
...erk gotta manually change 20 pages of macros...heh
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By Cerberus.Tidis 2015-11-18 02:31:37
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Panthur said: »
Why change it now after 14 years?

Because BST's were smashing everything while watching youtube videos. Everybody else had to worry about positioning and something called "Situational Awareness" while BST just kinda chilled in the back snacking on Cheetos while their disposable pets shredded everything. It got pretty obscene when every single content turned into "throw BSTs at it for easy win". Not always the fastest but definitely the easiest, least complicated way to win anything. SE had to either add complexity to controlling the pets or severely nerf their stats, they chose the first rather then the second.

And yes the radius should be centered on the pet not the target, I believe they said they are looking into a way to fix it.
And yet they complain to the heavens on the OF about it, frankly considering all the over-reliance on BST, I would have thought getting away with just a distance nerf rather than a damage nerf would have been very welcome.
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By Panthur 2015-11-18 02:50:04
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My issue is, I play beast a certain way because I am screwed with sattalite latency so the radius gave me a bit of leeway others probly never needed but meant a lot for me. To just take that away after 14 years is harsh.

Also my marcros are all with <p0> (aka me, myself) as target not the mob. Not sure if this is any difference but ill still give <pet> a try and see if I get a bit more radius then before.

58k ifrit flaming crush on final rv boss...dam...that's insane :P

EDIT: it's 3am, need coffee....
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By Elizabet 2015-11-18 03:04:13
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Or just remove any target parts in your macro, add the Shortcuts add-on to your windowed and you won't have to ever care again about target problems for Sendi g commands and using macros.
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By Panthur 2015-11-18 03:12:26
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Hmm. Only difference between <p0> and <pet> is I get no too far away warning so I have no idea if pet just missed or not in fights with walls of spam without looking at timers. No distance change. Oh well.
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By Elizabet 2015-11-18 03:56:25
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Panthur said: »
with walls of spam

Well thats another issue, clean up your logs, you can split them in 2 windows, choose wisely and the spam is really not so much.

And honestly, personnally, I dont use any <me>, <pet> or <p0> or <t> or anything like that at all in my macros... they just look like:

/pet "Ready"

<3 Shortcuts add-on, handles all the rest for me, so no headaches.
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By Panthur 2015-11-18 05:05:48
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updates tend to break stuff with windower, why I never bothered with gearswap. Its nice, but it hates me. A lot. It's mutual.
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By Fenrir.Acey 2015-11-18 07:27:57
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I think you should stop complaining. All jobs have been nerfed before bst was way to op for its own good it needed its range or stats debuffed. Personally I still think bst has way to much damage output but that's just me
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By Ramyrez 2015-11-18 07:32:25
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Panthur said: »
That's great but i'm on sattalite, I don't have the speed to do that before one of us dies unfortunately.

They can't bend over backward to accommodate every single player. I've had LS members of satellite before and that does suck for you if it's your only option, but sadly it's a "you're going to have to deal with it" scenario.

If it's not your only option, I suggest changing ISP, because satellite is a soft-***-on-crusty-***sandwich and if you use it by choice you've only got yourself to blame.
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By Fenrir.Acey 2015-11-18 07:33:57
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Ramyrez said: »
Panthur said: »
That's great but i'm on sattalite, I don't have the speed to do that before one of us dies unfortunately.

They can't bend over backward to accommodate every single player. I've had LS members of satellite before and that does suck for you if it's your only option, but sadly it's a "you're going to have to deal with it" scenario.

If it's not your only option, I suggest changing ISP, because satellite is a soft-***-on-crusty-***sandwich and if you use it by choice you've only got yourself to blame.

I was just gonna edit my post saying pretty much the same thing
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By Panthur 2015-11-18 09:08:11
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Yep, I know i'm sol, but it still suuuucks :( and so does my isp....
 Quetzalcoatl.Beaztmaster
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By Quetzalcoatl.Beaztmaster 2015-11-18 09:17:13
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I'm still rooting for you Panthur !

Can definitely sympathize with the internets issue.
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-11-18 11:23:03
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Cerberus.Tidis said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Panthur said: »
Why change it now after 14 years?

Because BST's were smashing everything while watching youtube videos. Everybody else had to worry about positioning and something called "Situational Awareness" while BST just kinda chilled in the back snacking on Cheetos while their disposable pets shredded everything. It got pretty obscene when every single content turned into "throw BSTs at it for easy win". Not always the fastest but definitely the easiest, least complicated way to win anything. SE had to either add complexity to controlling the pets or severely nerf their stats, they chose the first rather then the second.

And yes the radius should be centered on the pet not the target, I believe they said they are looking into a way to fix it.
And yet they complain to the heavens on the OF about it, frankly considering all the over-reliance on BST, I would have thought getting away with just a distance nerf rather than a damage nerf would have been very welcome.

They felt entitled to an "Easy Fantasy" and are offended that they have to actually have situational awareness and skill to play. I ***you not, the BST idea of "difficulty" is having to... drum roll ... eat food.
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 Asura.Hoshiku
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By Asura.Hoshiku 2015-11-18 12:53:57
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As far as gearswap goes, I think we're past the kind of updates that should break it. Now might be a good time to give it a try, or at least shortcuts which is pretty awesome.
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By Shiva.Malthar 2015-11-18 17:24:17
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Quote:
As we’ve mentioned before, the development team has no plans to change the range at which beastmasters can use commands. As Matsui previously stated, we want beastmasters to be close range battle jobs and bear the risk of taking damage in the front line. This change was made, because players were using beastmaster to attack from the back line, and this was against what the development team had intended for beastmaster.

This is absolute bs. I'm done.
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By Cerberus.Balloon 2015-11-18 17:37:44
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It seems more than fair. People spent all that time complaining that Beastmaster had no place, crying out that "Pets and Masters" should produce equal damage to a normal DD. SE tried to act on that vision, and part of that is having Pets and Masters stand close to each other.

People that complained about people only wanting Rangers seem to see no hypocrisy in them complaining about nerfing Beastsmaster.

Beastmasters are still relatively powerful, and having a job that can stand in the backline and spam commands to a near infinitely respawnable and healable pet is broken. A fix was needed. Beastmaster is still tonnes better than it was pre-adoulin.
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By Ragnarok.Inx 2015-11-18 17:48:04
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Asura.Saevel said: »
Cerberus.Tidis said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Panthur said: »
Why change it now after 14 years?

Because BST's were smashing everything while watching youtube videos. Everybody else had to worry about positioning and something called "Situational Awareness" while BST just kinda chilled in the back snacking on Cheetos while their disposable pets shredded everything. It got pretty obscene when every single content turned into "throw BSTs at it for easy win". Not always the fastest but definitely the easiest, least complicated way to win anything. SE had to either add complexity to controlling the pets or severely nerf their stats, they chose the first rather then the second.

And yes the radius should be centered on the pet not the target, I believe they said they are looking into a way to fix it.
And yet they complain to the heavens on the OF about it, frankly considering all the over-reliance on BST, I would have thought getting away with just a distance nerf rather than a damage nerf would have been very welcome.

They felt entitled to an "Easy Fantasy" and are offended that they have to actually have situational awareness and skill to play. I ***you not, the BST idea of "difficulty" is having to... drum roll ... eat food.

Such ignorance.... Eesh.

Not worth dignifying with a response, except to point out that the userbase will always gravitate to the most efficient and reliable methods of beating a particular target or event.

If people used bandwagon BST's as a crutch,they will simply move on to the next cheap and easy path to victory. All of which means that the status quo will never really change.

To be honest, the difference between the "have" and "have-not's" in the chance of taking-part in content stakes has never been wider thanks to the job point system. See many rangers invited to cleaves or apex burns? How about melee-jobs full stop?

The result being those jobs are less developed and less competitive than ever with the more popular alternatives.
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By Asura.Masrur 2015-11-18 19:29:05
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Ragnarok.Inx said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Cerberus.Tidis said: »
Asura.Saevel said: »
Panthur said: »
Why change it now after 14 years?

Because BST's were smashing everything while watching youtube videos. Everybody else had to worry about positioning and something called "Situational Awareness" while BST just kinda chilled in the back snacking on Cheetos while their disposable pets shredded everything. It got pretty obscene when every single content turned into "throw BSTs at it for easy win". Not always the fastest but definitely the easiest, least complicated way to win anything. SE had to either add complexity to controlling the pets or severely nerf their stats, they chose the first rather then the second.

And yes the radius should be centered on the pet not the target, I believe they said they are looking into a way to fix it.
And yet they complain to the heavens on the OF about it, frankly considering all the over-reliance on BST, I would have thought getting away with just a distance nerf rather than a damage nerf would have been very welcome.

They felt entitled to an "Easy Fantasy" and are offended that they have to actually have situational awareness and skill to play. I ***you not, the BST idea of "difficulty" is having to... drum roll ... eat food.

Such ignorance.... Eesh.

Not worth dignifying with a response, except to point out that the userbase will always gravitate to the most efficient and reliable methods of beating a particular target or event.

If people used bandwagon BST's as a crutch,they will simply move on to the next cheap and easy path to victory. All of which means that the status quo will never really change.

To be honest, the difference between the "have" and "have-not's" in the chance of taking-part in content stakes has never been wider thanks to the job point system. See many rangers invited to cleaves or apex burns? How about melee-jobs full stop?

The result being those jobs are less developed and less competitive than ever with the more popular alternatives.

The most efficient set up now is SCH, BLM x2, GEO, WHM, PLD, and hell, the WHM can be Apururu if WHM dc's or leaves mid event and August can step in if PLD dc's or buggers off mid event.

Mages in particular are also in a good position because gear wise, SCH, GEO and BLM share lots of gear so from an inventory and ease of gearing perspective. From a recruitment PoV, someone who has BLM most likely will be able to bring to the table SCH or GEO too since lvling now is easy peasy and 1200 jp grind just requires a week or 3 to grind. One could argue SC + MB requires coordination whatnot... But for ppl who have played since launch this is easy peasy too.

BST still have their place. Still requires a pet set up, e.g. PLD, WHM, GEO, COR, BST x2. BST set ups have to be more wary of the target NM, as said set up is not ideal on all NM's SE has added. Deal with it! Life isn't fair!

BLU is in a good place too, v. similar to BST set up, except replace both BST with 2 BLU. BLU is not that hard to master, farming spells is most tedious. Melee gear is similar to THF or DNC... self buffs, alternate MG and spam CDC. Not rocket science either! Certain ppl bigging up of BLU's playing requirements is laughable! Said BLU set up is king of Sinister Reign (You've stolen BSTs crown, yet you still wanna kick the job when it's down?! Petty and frankly bitchy <*** swords>!).

As someone who has played most jobs and since EU launch... Cut the BS, all jobs are relatively easy to play. This game is all about mashing macros, killing mobs, grind lvls, merits, cp. Wear BiS (SE, please add more inv space!!!!!!!) and kill NM's ASAP and there will always be a certain set up that will kill ABC NM the quickest... Players just have to be FLEXIBLE WITH THEIR JOBS AND PARTY SET UP (Leaders know which jobs to invite... LFP players to know when to offer their services... As in if the /yeller is yelling for a BLM, don't offer them a THF).

Play RUN, THF or DNC... Better make your own parties or hope you have real like friends or nice LS! Nothing wrong with these jobs at all... Just the case of requiring setting up! Dwindling player base doesn't help.

2Handers (minus SAM), Monk, Rangers, Bards (to an extent), now these are the jobs that need tweaking and buffs. SE must be stuck in a time warp... Or they confuse 11 with 14 coz a party where there's a PLD, WHM, (DRG/DRK/WAR)x 2, RNG, BRD ain't gonna happen.
Accuracy, status ailments, ws dmg, no MB, etc. Prove me wrong! I'll bring anyone of those jobs as I love experimenting!

Panthur (BAmbi) gear your BLM! Sod your mythic BST! I'll help you gear BLM when I cba to play. Love you babes.
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By Asura.Masrur 2015-11-18 19:44:07
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Cerberus.Balloon said: »
It seems more than fair. People spent all that time complaining that Beastmaster had no place, crying out that "Pets and Masters" should produce equal damage to a normal DD. SE tried to act on that vision, and part of that is having Pets and Masters stand close to each other.

People that complained about people only wanting Rangers seem to see no hypocrisy in them complaining about nerfing Beastsmaster.

Beastmasters are still relatively powerful, and having a job that can stand in the backline and spam commands to a near infinitely respawnable and healable pet is broken. A fix was needed. Beastmaster is still tonnes better than it was pre-adoulin.

My only real gripe with how SE handled BST is... BSTs just look HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE standing in AoEable conditions YET NOT BEING ABLE TO MELEE. BST draw out their weapon, but can't hit the mob. Looks HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE! Standing far away mashing ready moves - yes was easy, but made 'sense' as you were safe.

Tbh, it's too late. 11 (the cash cow for SE is dying). In an ideal world pet jobs where Master + Pet damage = overall dmg.

As of now with how augments and party buff mechanics BST (the master) has to sacrifice its own dmg output in order for pet to deal respectable ready moves.

Beastmaster could go all out Master dmg... The gears out there, screw the pet, be a semi wannabe gimp WAR! (No idea why Fencer are given as gifts... What shitty gifts! Dual Wield sexy MELEE axes!) There's lots of Cloudsplitter and Primal Rend gear now... Just use Rabbit pet as a gimp WHM, wild carrot has its purpose!!!
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By Asura.Saevel 2015-11-18 22:19:36
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Asura.Masrur said: »
Beastmaster could go all out Master dmg... The gears out there, screw the pet, be a semi wannabe gimp WAR! (No idea why Fencer are given as gifts... What shitty gifts! Dual Wield sexy MELEE axes!) There's lots of Cloudsplitter and Primal Rend gear now... Just use Rabbit pet as a gimp WHM, wild carrot has its purpose!!!

This is why you guys suck so badly. Very poor understanding of game damage mechanics since all you did was sit back, eat Cheetos and watch TV while your pets killed stuff.

Fencer is godlike when understood and built around. Certain WS's, which BST has access to, have fTP valued that scale stupidly well with TP. For Axe this is Mistral Axe and Cloudsplitter.

BST get's Fencer III which is +400 TP Bonus (WAR gets 500) and some crit (7%). From gifts you get +160 before the recent update and I'm assuming since your following the WAR update path you get another +70 somewhere between 1200 and 2100. That is 630 Tp Bonus with another 250 from moonshade for a total of 880.

Long break down of the effect Fencer has, it's a 41~42% increase in WS damage on some very powerful WS's.

Anyhow that's the breakdown for how awesome Fencer is now. I use it on my WAR because it handily beats out everything else.

Quote:
BLU is not that hard to master, farming spells is most tedious

So much more to it then this. This is the mentality that has 95% of BLU's suck ***. Here is a hint, most of the job is knowledge of game mechanics and battlefield preparation and how to exploit both, not battle execution. If you only focus on the combat execution then you are going to miss the vast majority of the job. BST needed a nerf, either to pet stats or to the ability to eat Cheeto's and watch TV while playing it. SE decided to force you to play like a melee and take risks similar to a melee, which was a solid decision. You don't have to stand in range 100% of the time, but you sure as hell can't stand back pressing your ready macro every 10s while watching TV. Great BST's have already adapted by using things like stoneskin, utsusemi and -DT sets. They know the AoE range of NM's dangerous moves and how to best position themselves to minimize the time they are in the "danger zone". They practice situational awareness and battlespace management, which are critical aspects to being a DPS in any MMORPG. Shitty BST's who were used to clearing everything easily, while watching TV and eating snack foods, suddenly got a wakeup call as they had completely ignored those critical skillsets before. They started wiping and failing for the same reason they wiped and failed when playing their other jobs. They then clamored to the forums and cried about how it sucks they can't "easy-mode win" everything and watch TV, that they have to actually learn critical game mechanics and skill sets in order to play with the big boys.

As for before the patch, game was horribly unbalanced because everything could be beaten with shitty BST's. It might take awhile, but a win is a win. It got to the point of everyone using BST's to the exclusion of all other jobs, even which it was viable to use different strategies which might actually be faster.

Player A: SR BST x2, COR <Can I have it> @3/6
Player B: Escha Zi'tah T1 NM BST, GEO, COR, PLD <Can I have it> @1/6
Player C: Delve 5+1 MB BST <Can I have it> @ 3/6
Player D: Bubbly Bernie, GEO BST <Can I have it> @4/6

Now we're seeing people shout for BLU's, and they lose more then they win. I've gone on those groups when mine was not available and Jesus the horrific quality of BLU's present is mind boggling. Compete failures who can barely hit anything, do ***damage and die super fast. They thought "this can't be hard" and just threw stuff together and spammed CDC. Due to lack of game mechanics knowledge and preparation they failed.
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 Valefor.Kensagaku
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By Valefor.Kensagaku 2015-11-18 23:29:28
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Despite being a BST player myself (though my mains are DRG and BLU) I can understand why the range adjustment came about. We were getting a little powerful with our out of range fighting. But there are so many ways they could have done this better; several good suggestions were made on the forum to make this viable without completely neutering the job. Examples included scaling damage based on your range from the mob (closer = standard damage, further = old Ready damage), reducing damage as a whole while maintaining range, or even just extending the range a bit so that you could actually fight the mob from the side or back without getting out of range messages.

Meanwhile, we have SMNs doing 20k+ BPs every 30 seconds (granted, my experiences are with the two Mythic SMNs in my LS, so that's not a comparison for all SMNs. :P), SCHs making SCs for MBs, etc. All of that is the same safe, out of range damage that doesn't require your BLM to do much more than spam some T1s/T2s and then drop a big nuke whenever a skillchain happens. It's like... okay, I'm cool with the idea that you want there to be an element of risk, but it's like... where's the element of risk you were just talking about for mage jobs, rangers, and summoners?

That's my only gripe about this change, really. If they wanted to make an adjustment because they wanted there to be a reasonable risk to all jobs, I'm all for that! But there isn't, and as a result, it's just simply the nerfhammer coming down on one job and making it far less useful than it would be. I still occasionally play my BST, built hybrid sets, etc, and to some small extent I can still play it. It just feels like I got nerfed down because players take the path of least resistance.
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By Elizabet 2015-11-18 23:41:46
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Valefor.Kensagaku said: »
where's the element of risk you were just talking about for mage jobs, rangers, and summoners?

As a summoner, my pet can absolutely not take the beating your pet is taking. I can't use a "reward" type move either. Sure, Dawn muslum are a thing but when my pet gets 2-3 shotted anyways by auto attacks its not much use... Then when my pet dies and I need to resummon it, I need to stand still and hope to get a cast off while that big dragon is chomping my way... with buffs, I don't have the -dt gear a bst can wear and i'll get 2 shot so I either need MORE distance, -or- hope I dont get interupted. Then I can't heal my self back up because i'll instantly grab hate again and get 1 shotted cause not full hp... Better hope I dont need to resummon it a 2nd time! My pet never last long enough to build any substancial aggro, and landing a BP matters little since the new dmg to enmity changes.

Yeah, if we have a proper tank, I'm fine... But even now, post the range changes... BST still solo a hell of a lot better than a SMN ever will. You have a time based ressource that recharges fast, tanky enough pets that while do less dmg, can take a beating and get healed up... all avatars are BLMs. I'd love to use Ifrit for dmg, and Titan to tank... It's just not this way. All my pets are the same pet except for the element they nuke.

Oh, and let's talk AOE....

Yeah lol.

ok.
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