The 6th Ministry's Secret: A Summoner's Guide (v2)

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The 6th Ministry's Secret: A Summoner's Guide (v2)
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 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-01-10 17:59:33
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Yea, that's what I said earlier. It's honestly not far behind nirvana either and can potentially be ahead if acc uncapped(assuming no AM3, with AM3 nirvana blows it away).
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By Verda 2017-01-10 18:26:38
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Only viable on pacts that don't carry ftp, of which I don't believe there are any that are currently worth using.
YMMV but I like spinning dive if you need a single high acc hit, mountain buster is actually pretty good damage for a 1 hit BP too and would get the 100 acc boost, and crag throw finished off TC in papesse's screenshot :P YMMV = your mileage may vary, meaning, up to you if that's worth it vs cost of buying one.

Asura.Sechs said: »
Does this mean Gridarvor is the best Physical BP staff, regardless of Wes and Wes+1?
Can't deny the facts, for volt strike spam gridavor being able to get two DA procs is pretty big. No disagreement here.

Interesting that this puts a JSE weapon so high in the ranking order though for some of the biggest physical damage smn can do... not sure that's actually a good thing. I don't think outside perhaps Shigi any other JSE gets to be so well off. Maybe Priwen for block rate or Polyhymnia but eh.

On the not so plus side this now has to be somewhat explained to every SMN coming in asking for advice ~_~ On the plus side, it's pretty accessible for new smn.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-01-10 18:29:54
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Where can I find an updated list of all physical BPs with carrying FTP (after that patch a couple of months ago) that would then benefit best from Gridarvor?

For all the other Physical BPs I assume Grio/Kerau/Wes would be the best choices instead (likely Wes, I think?)
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By Asura.Pergatory 2017-01-10 18:30:02
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Sidra said: »
That would be the difference of me have an extra attack go off 22%, or 66% (on a 3hitter).
This is very nit-picky but that's not exactly correct.

With 22% DA chance and a 3-hit WS, you have a 52.5448% chance of at least one DA proc. That's:

47.4552% chance of 0 DA
40.1544% chance of 1 DA
11.3256% chance of 2 DA
1.0648% chance of 3 DA

In terms of damage increase, that math is fortunately a lot easier. For example if you have +9% DA, then it will add +9% damage to your average BP regardless of how many hits that BP is.

So for example if you want to measure the increase from 9% DA to 24% DA (adding Gridarvor on top of Incarnation+Shulmanu) then it's a simple 1.24/1.09 to discover that it's roughly a 13.76% increase in damage.

Comparing that to Was, let's say you have 100 BPDmg before weapon. Was should increase by 220/200 = 1.1 or +10%. Was +1 would be 225/200 = 1.125 or +12.5%.

So this is a long-winded way of saying I agree, Gridarvor beats Was +1.
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By Sidra 2017-01-10 18:35:20
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Damn...if I'd have known Papese was gonna jump in, I could have saved myself an hour and a half. Anyway, here is my data from 50 Eclipse Bites, performed buffless on Woh Gates worms, with 22%DA - the TP return and Damage

In 50 3 hit WS, I had:

1 - 1
2 - 1
3 - 30
4 - 16
5 - 2

Since it would be impossible to land 5 hits if it wasn't checking multiple times, combined with the fact I was landing 4 hits considerably more than my 22% DA rate. Also I was was surrpised i didn't land more 2 hits - I am guessing capped accuracy with a DA sometimes going of on a miss, making it look like a 3 hitter even though a DA proceed this covering some of them up. I think it can be concluded that they work just like mele weaponskills - checking each hit and capping at 8 max.

Stray observations:

-The Weaponskill has a wide damage range even within the same # of hits - all these were done at 0 TP. You could not look at damage alone to determine the hits - you must look at TP.

-That 269 TP, which I can only assume was a 2 hitter seems really odd TP wise.
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By Verda 2017-01-10 18:44:12
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Where can I find an updated list of all physical BPs with carrying FTP (after that patch a couple of months ago) that would then benefit best from Gridarvor?
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:FTP_Replicating_WS
It's a bit hard to read them though because it's mixed in with weaponskills maybe a category for ftp carry BPs could be created or a page to list and talk about them.

I just look at the patch notes tho they are listed there:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/51624-Nov.-10-2016-%28JST%29-Version-Update?p=587216&viewfull=1#post587216

Quote:
The damage adjustments to the following Blood Pacts: Rage will now apply to all hits.

Eclipse Bite / Double Punch / Predator Claws / Rush / Chaotic Strike / Volt Strike

* In exchange for damage increasing on all hits rather than just the first hit, the damage of each individual hit has been lowered. However, the total damage over all the hits has been raised.

Sidra said: »
-The Weaponskill has a wide damage range even within the same # of hits - all these were done at 0 TP. You could not look at damage alone to determine the hits - you must look at TP.
That's less true if pdif is capped (since crit can't break cap for avatars), but still good work :D
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By Sidra 2017-01-10 18:47:09
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Asura.Pergatory said: »
Sidra said: »
That would be the difference of me have an extra attack go off 22%, or 66% (on a 3hitter).
This is very nit-picky but that's not exactly correct.

With 22% DA chance and a 3-hit WS, you have a 52.5448% chance of at least one DA proc. That's:

47.4552% chance of 0 DA
40.1544% chance of 1 DA
11.3256% chance of 2 DA
1.0648% chance of 3 DA

In terms of damage increase, that math is fortunately a lot easier. For example if you have +9% DA, then it will add +9% damage to your average BP regardless of how many hits that BP is.

So for example if you want to measure the increase from 9% DA to 24% DA (adding Gridarvor on top of Incarnation+Shulmanu) then it's a simple 1.24/1.09 to discover that it's roughly a 13.76% increase in damage.

I am getting old, so perhaps my math is getting rusty, but I feel like you just calculated the odds of ONLY getting 1 DA, not getting at least 1 DA.

If you roll a 6 sided die 3 times trying to roll a 1, there is a 50% chance you will get it. 3 cracks (max) at a 1/6 chance is 1/6 * 3, or 3/6. Once you hit it once, condition is considered met. Each chance is truly one sixth and you are doing it 3 times, it's additive. 1/6 + 1/6 + 1/6

We ignore the fact that those other rolls might not happen if the first one hits since that would make the condition met.

Although given my recent history in the SMN forum I feel like I am gonna be wrong again, even though I can't wrap my head around how..
 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2017-01-10 18:48:30
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If BPs work like WSs, you should only get two DA opportunities per BP.
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 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-01-10 18:49:35
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Verda said: »
YMMV but I like spinning dive if you need a single high acc hit, mountain buster is actually pretty good damage for a 1 hit BP too and would get the 100 acc boost, and crag throw finished off TC in papesse's screenshot :P YMMV = your mileage may vary, meaning, up to you if that's worth it vs cost of buying one.
The problem with that is if you're using an inferior BP to gain 100 acc, you somewhat defeat the purpose by using a weapon with 45 less accuracy. I find it hard to picture a situation where you can't do better by adjusting gear/setup to make one of the good BPs work, not saying none exist but they certainly aren't common.

If you did really need that 55 accuracy, every last point of it, it still means you could swap in gridarvor and make 45 acc in sacrifices elsewhere to gain more damage than was+1.
 Asura.Pergatory
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By Asura.Pergatory 2017-01-10 18:56:52
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Sidra said: »
If you roll a 6 sided die 3 times trying to roll a 1, there is a 50% chance you will get it. 3 cracks (max) at a 1/6 chance is 1/6 * 3, or 3/6. Once you hit it once, condition is considered met. Each chance is truly one sixth and you are doing it 3 times, it's additive. 1/6 + 1/6 + 1/6

It's not additive, it's multiplicative. You have three 1/6 chances.

1/6 * 1/6 * 1/6 = 0.004629...

However, those are only the chances of rolling ALL ones. Your chances of rolling at least one 1 is much different. You have to include outcomes where you roll 1, 2, or 3 ones.

It's easier to calculate the odds of NOT rolling at least one 1:

You have 5/6 chance of rolling something else, so you need 3 of those in a row:
5/6 * 5/6 * 5/6 = 0.5787

So if you roll a 6-sided die 3 times, you have a 58% chance of not getting any 1s, leaving a 42% chance of getting at least one.

Edit:
Since this makes it easier to understand, I'll show how it works in the DA+22% example.

Your chances of no DA procs are 78% per hit. To have no procs on three hits in a row would be: 0.78 * 0.78 * 0.78

Your chances of exactly 1 DA proc are:
(0.22 * 0.78 * 0.78) * 3

That's one DA, two non-DA. But why do I multiply by 3? Because it's the same odds for Yes/No/No as for No/Yes/No and No/No/Yes. I'm catching all 3 scenarios there.

Your chances of exactly 2 DA are:
(0.22 * 0.22 * 0.78) * 3

Your chances of exactly 3 DA are:
0.22 * 0.22 * 0.22
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By Verda 2017-01-10 18:58:15
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@Comeatmebro ya probably more like the geo is dead and we're gonna win this thing kinda deal ;p
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By Sidra 2017-01-10 19:55:34
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If you have 3 attempts at hitting 1/6 odds, it's 3/6. You multiply by the attempts. The attempts are independent of each other. What happens on one in no way effects the other. You don't multiply by the odds because you don't need each thing to happen, only one of them. And it also does not matter on which attempt it happens.

You are making it more complex when you are solving for EXACTLY one, or EXACTLY 2 or 3. Those require multiple conditions to be met, so you are multiplying more odds together. But when the question is at least one, there are not multiple conditions that need met. Simply a 22% chance 3x = 66%.

Kinda like if you were synthing an HQ with a 10% rate and you had 5 chances to do it. There is a 50% chance you'd nail at least 1. 5 cracks at 10%. The chances of only getting 1 HQ are less than 50, because you could get 2 3 4 or 5. But since getting 2 3 4 or 5 would still fulfill the "at least requirement", it's 50%.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-01-10 20:03:09
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You're wrong, he's right, he fully explained it.

Yes, you have 3x as many chances, but occurances of 2-3 lower the total possibilities. Look at it this way, if it helps:

111
112
113
114
115
116
121
122
123
124
125
126
and so on through 666

there are 6 * 6 * 6 = 216 possible outcomes of rolling the die 3 times, hopefully that much is easy to follow

now, within those 216 outcomes, there are 648 individual dice rolls, 108 of which are 1s, when factoring 3 dice it does look like 50%

however, since some combinations have multiple 1s, some of them will not have any.. in total 91 out of 216 combinations contain a 1

that means the chance of rolling at least one 1 with 3 dice rolls is actually 42.1%, but your average number of 1s within 3 dice rolls will be 0.5
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 Fenrir.Tarowyn
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By Fenrir.Tarowyn 2017-01-10 20:07:56
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Sidra said: »
If you have 3 attempts at hitting 1/6 odds, it's 3/6. You multiply by the attempts. The attempts are independent of each other. What happens on one in no way effects the other. You don't multiply by the odds because you don't need each thing to happen, only one of them. And it also does not matter on which attempt it happens.

You are making it more complex when you are solving for EXACTLY one, or EXACTLY 2 or 3. Those require multiple conditions to be met, so you are multiplying more odds together. But when the question is at least one, there are not multiple conditions that need met. Simply a 22% chance 3x = 66%.

Kinda like if you were synthing an HQ with a 10% rate and you had 5 chances to do it. There is a 50% chance you'd nail at least 1. 5 cracks at 10%. The chances of only getting 1 HQ are less than 50, because you could get 2 3 4 or 5. But since getting 2 3 4 or 5 would still fulfill the "at least requirement", it's 50%.

Actually, that's not right. Since you're trying to calculate how often a BP gets a DA, if you get two DA's in a single BP, your 22% chances are overlapping so you can't just add them together.

Just look at it this way, if you have 50% DA and a 2 hit BP, does the BP get DA 100% of the time?
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 Phoenix.Apofis
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By Phoenix.Apofis 2017-01-10 23:32:50
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Quote:
look at it this way, if you have 50% DA and a 2 hit BP, does the BP get DA 100% of the time?
of course not, it's like when you flip a coin, it can fall twice and even three times or more on one side despite the 50% chance. The probability of 50% is very high but not 100%
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By Zubis 2017-01-11 01:23:16
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Every time I come into this forum to check if any SMN gear was added this month I see pages and pages of (questionable) math because someone asked a simple question.

Sometimes when someone asks if a piece of equipment is good they want a yes or no answer folks.
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By Sylph.Oraen 2017-01-11 01:40:59
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We can't really answer "yes or no" when dealing with complicated formulas and mechanics. Sometimes you have to read a teensy little bit to actually understand stuff.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-01-11 01:59:07
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Ok so, if we want to simplify things and make a shorter even if approximate and not perfect answer, this is the general approach a new SMN without Nirvana should use for offensive BPs.

Physical BPs with carrying TP:
Gridarvor (augmented!)

Other Physical BPs:
Wes (Grioavolr/Keraunos with good augments as a weaker alternative)

Magical BPs
:
Espiritus (A/C) / Grioavolr / Keraunos (Grio should be the best with good augs, all 3 of them should be close)

Hybrid BPs:
Wes

Debuff BPs:
Espiritus (path B)



Are there any other relevant Hybrid BPs aside Flaming Crush?
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 Lakshmi.Byrth
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By Lakshmi.Byrth 2017-01-11 05:52:26
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No
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By FaeQueenCory 2017-01-11 06:19:32
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The only other hybrid is Burning Strike. Good for 1shotting trash mobs, but that's about it.
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By Verda 2017-01-11 09:58:18
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Hybrid BPs:
Wes
I wouldn't say it's 100% on that since MAB is also very good for FC. Without an exact formula it will come down to having to test both in the field vs each other, and since FC damage varies so much it'd mean having to compare the averages of a pretty large sample size. For the rest, looks great thanks.
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By Asura.Pergatory 2017-01-11 10:04:38
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Asura.Sechs said: »
Ok so, if we want to simplify things and make a shorter even if approximate and not perfect answer, this is the general approach a new SMN without Nirvana should use for offensive BPs.

Physical BPs with carrying TP:
Gridarvor (augmented!)

Other Physical BPs:
Wes (Grioavolr/Keraunos with good augments as a weaker alternative)

Magical BPs
:
Espiritus (A/C) / Grioavolr / Keraunos (Grio should be the best with good augs, all 3 of them should be close)

Hybrid BPs:
Wes

Debuff BPs:
Espiritus (path B)



Are there any other relevant Hybrid BPs aside Flaming Crush?
For debuff BPs, I would recommend making a nice Grioavolr. There are some BPs you will still want to use Espiritus due to their interaction with summoning skill (Impact & Conflag Strike come to mind) but other BPs like Sleepga, Shock Squall, etc. you can get a lot more out of a Grio. Up to 65 Pet:MAcc plus potentially some Pet:INT as well.

Also it's hard to say whether a well-augmented Grio with BPDmg & Pet:MAB could beat a Was for hybrid BPs. I could see that going either way for advanced SMN, but the Pet:Acc on Was may seal the deal for a fresh SMN.

The more I think about it, Was seems like a perfect starter staff for fresh SMNs who don't have a lot of BPDmg from gear. If you have less than about 30-50 BPDmg from gear (not counting weapon) then Was beats Gridarvor even on BPs that carry TP. It's a shame the weapon is Su2 or it could make a nice stepping stone on your way to Gridarvor for beginner SMNs.
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 Asura.Avallon
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By Asura.Avallon 2017-01-11 10:13:30
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I've been playing this game too long...

I remember when this was the most coveted SMN staff in the game.



Good times.
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-01-11 16:17:26
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For Flaming Crush, how are you guys personally weighting Attack vs Mab vs other pet stats? Acc vs macc?
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By Asura.Pergatory 2017-01-11 20:26:37
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MAB is king for Flaming Crush. Acc is sometimes needed, but usually in my experience if you need a lot of acc (to the point where you're sacrificing a lot of other stats), then you also need so many other things that Flaming Crush just isn't the best option.

Hence I don't prioritize acc super high but I do pick it up where I can. Attack is also very good but not quite on par with MAB. Pet:STR seems even better than attack, but I'm not sure point for point where it stands with MAB.

This is my current FC build, the body is path A and legs are path D.

main="Nirvana",
sub="Elan Strap +1",
ammo="Sancus Sachet +1",
head={ name="Apogee Crown +1", augments={'MP+80','Pet: "Mag.Atk.Bns."+35','Blood Pact Dmg.+8',}},
neck="Adad Amulet",
ear1="Lugalbanda Earring",
ear2="Gelos Earring",
body="Apogee Dalmatica +1",
hands={ name="Merlinic Dastanas", augments={'Pet: "Mag.Atk.Bns."+29','Blood Pact Dmg.+10','Pet: DEX+2',}},
ring1="Varar Ring +1",
ring2="Varar Ring +1",
back={ name="Campestres's Cape", augments={'Pet: Acc.+20 Pet: R.Acc.+20 Pet: Atk.+20 Pet: R.Atk.+20','Eva.+20 /Mag. Eva.+20','Pet: Attack+10 Pet: Rng.Atk.+10','Pet: "Regen"+10',}},
waist="Incarnation Sash",
legs="Apogee Slacks +1",
feet={ name="Apogee Pumps +1", augments={'MP+80','Pet: "Mag.Atk.Bns."+35','Blood Pact Dmg.+8',}}
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By Verda 2017-01-11 21:31:38
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By the way with the new confirmed info on double attack procs, Shulmanu collar whenever I finally get it will be so good for Volt Strike ;-;
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By Asura.Pergatory 2017-01-11 22:03:34
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Yeah that's the one piece that's still evading me as well besides Enmerkar which I'm not super worried about.
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By Ragnarok.Fcube 2017-01-12 00:45:26
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I am just gearing SMN and getting ready to get some CP soon in the upcoming CP campaign.

Do I focus on magical BP for MB and act as a BLM? As such, should I just focus on magical BP gear only? What numbers should I be seeing when I MB as my gears are limited. (Reasonable augment on merlinic feet, legs, hands, AF1 body, Apopgee head, Espiritus path C, ambuscade JSE cape). Should I focus on pet: Macc to reduce resist?

I am not looking to outdo a BLM. I just want to ensure that I am at least a useful "blm" in these CP parties.

I am also assuming physical BP is not something I should aim for in CP parties.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.
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By Phoenix.Brixy 2017-01-12 01:05:26
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Depending on which camps are open or the group you could do a couple of things. When I was doing CP on smn I would either magic burst, focus on pulling and sleeping with Shiva to give mab favor to mages (still magic burst when possible), or solo skillchain for blm/sch to burst. Generally you will focus on magic bursting in most cases. 40k shouldn't be that hard to hit with average gear which should be plenty. Impact is usually your best bet damage wise as long as your group is making darkess.

Garland of Bliss > Volt Strike/Predator Claws for light
or
Shattersoul > Rush for darkness
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 Asura.Sechs
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By Asura.Sechs 2017-01-12 02:29:24
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Asura.Pergatory said: »
This is my current FC build, the body is path A and legs are path D.
Noticed you're using your physical Campestres instead of the magical one.
I guess because Attack+30 > Mdmg +30.
Did you go on a hunch or did you actually test it?
Altough I too were definitely leaning towards using my physical campestres over my magical one.

Also speaking of Apogee, wouldn't the mixed path be better for FC? (I forgot which path it is, think it's C?)
And for neck, Adad vs Shulmanu Collar? Leaning on the latter.

FC gains "accuracy" from additional TP, correct?
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