~First And Final Line Of Defense V2.0~

Language: JP EN DE FR
New Items
2023-11-19
users online
Forum » FFXI » Jobs » Paladin » ~First and Final Line of Defense v2.0~
~First and Final Line of Defense v2.0~
First Page 2 3 ... 19 20 21 ... 136 137 138
 Valefor.Omnys
Offline
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
user: omnys
Posts: 1759
By Valefor.Omnys 2016-05-10 20:39:30
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Cerberus.Jeffil said: »
What is the general consensus on using Vatic Byrnie (from Warder of Loyalty) for CDC, assuming that I do not have any Reisen bodies and only Souveran body from Ru'aun? I'm currently using Despair Mail Path D.

Did you miss out on Sulevia's Platemail +1? (Even the NQ is a a better acc body than many of PLD's options). Isn't Sulevia's still available this month? Acc+40 Att+44
 Cerberus.Jeffil
Offline
Server: Cerberus
Game: FFXI
user: Zelljrc
Posts: 90
By Cerberus.Jeffil 2016-05-11 01:26:43
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Valefor.Omnys said: »
Cerberus.Jeffil said: »
What is the general consensus on using Vatic Byrnie (from Warder of Loyalty) for CDC, assuming that I do not have any Reisen bodies and only Souveran body from Ru'aun? I'm currently using Despair Mail Path D.

Did you miss out on Sulevia's Platemail +1? (Even the NQ is a a better acc body than many of PLD's options). Isn't Sulevia's still available this month? Acc+40 Att+44

I got Sulevia's Platemail +1 last month yes. I wanted to know if the offensive stats would be decent enough to warrant getting one. I know it has only acc from the DEX unfortunately, but DA+3 and Crit rate +3 are attractive.
 Fenrir.Loynis
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Whknight
By Fenrir.Loynis 2016-05-11 10:57:24
Link | Quote | Reply
 
If you have capped accuracy, then I'd assume yes. Otherwise, probably not the best option unless your hit rate is fairly high. Then again I'm not one of the math nerds so I might be wrong.
 Asura.Calatilla
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Calatilla
Posts: 2507
By Asura.Calatilla 2016-05-26 17:29:21
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Whats the basic set for capped PDT/MDT with Aegis(95) and Defending ring?
 Fenrir.Loynis
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Whknight
By Fenrir.Loynis 2016-05-26 18:04:11
Link | Quote | Reply
 
You don't really need to worry about MDT since you'll be capping between shell and relic body/ Souveran/defending/any other DT you wear.

By basic do you mean something along the lines of Yorium / AFs or with Souveran?
 Asura.Calatilla
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Calatilla
Posts: 2507
By Asura.Calatilla 2016-05-26 18:15:00
Link | Quote | Reply
 
This is my current set

ItemSet 343927

I guess what I`m really asking is where do I upgrade so that I can cap PDT while still keeping mdt capped.
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Nightfyre
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2016-05-26 18:26:32
Link | Quote | Reply
 
You're already, what, 20+% over MDT cap in that set even with just Shell V? NQ Shell IV is ~22%, NQ Shell V is ~24%, 5/5 Shellra V with AF2 pants and you wearing a Sheltered Ring or Brachyura Earring goes all the way up to 31.25%. Aegis is another 50. At most you'd need about 16% to cap with Shell up, and I count 36% in that set. You're very nearly capping without Shell. So... start by dropping the MDT armor? I don't think you're actually going to run into issues with uncapped MDT in any reasonable defensive set involving Aegis unless you get into niche situations with Shell down, and if that happens you can just swap into a different set if you're about to take magic damage. Too many good sources of -DT for it to ever be an issue otherwise.

edit: you said 95, so add another 5% needed. Still super easy to cap and it'll only get easier if you 99 it.
 Fenrir.Loynis
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Whknight
By Fenrir.Loynis 2016-05-26 18:36:03
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Also some good pieces are DT, like Impassive Mantle and Sulevia's which further reduces the need for MDT.

Off the top of my head, neck, back, right ring, ammo slot and I believe there is a PDT earring are the slots that you can improve, not counting armor slots.

Twilight / UNM Behemoth. Impassive / Reisen Wyrm. Dark Ring augmented / Vocane. That PDT ammo that's 2% and I believe the earring was from Alexander.

Sorry, playing Overwatch and there is literally no time between matches to do anything.
 Sylph.Brahmsz
Offline
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
user: Khronos
By Sylph.Brahmsz 2016-05-28 17:35:17
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Hi, if this has been asked/answered already sorry for repeating but was it ever mathed out how much +shield skill adds in terms of increased blockrate? Asking mainly because the Souvereign Hands Path D gives 50HP/Shield Skill+10 but that extra 30 HP/Enmity+7 from Path C keeps enticing me. Thanks in advance.
 Seraph.Jacaut
Offline
Server: Seraph
Game: FFXI
user: Jacaut
Posts: 383
By Seraph.Jacaut 2016-05-28 18:01:02
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Asura.Calatilla said: »
This is my current set

ItemSet 343927

I guess what I`m really asking is where do I upgrade so that I can cap PDT while still keeping mdt capped.

ItemSet 341516

head,hands:D
Rest:C

this is what im aimming for personally, im sure theres some upgrades i can make but i know this is obtainable for me, and all im missing is torque ammo and nixxer.

Without vocane you'd only be @ 45%PDT which you can swap in a neck to cap that out
 Ragnarok.Martel
Offline
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2894
By Ragnarok.Martel 2016-05-28 22:35:45
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Sylph.Brahmsz said: »
Hi, if this has been asked/answered already sorry for repeating but was it ever mathed out how much +shield skill adds in terms of increased blockrate? Asking mainly because the Souvereign Hands Path D gives 50HP/Shield Skill+10 but that extra 30 HP/Enmity+7 from Path C keeps enticing me. Thanks in advance.
skill * 0.215 seems to give a pretty accurate estimate of skill to blockrate.

so, 10 skill *0.215 = 2.15% blockrate.

Also, fyi. None of the abj gear is Rare, so you do have the option of getting both.
[+]
 Bahamut.Darksouls
Offline
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
user: blacksoul
Posts: 78
By Bahamut.Darksouls 2016-05-29 01:36:17
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Is Lustratio+1: Path B still the best for pld CDC?
 Valefor.Omnys
Offline
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
user: omnys
Posts: 1759
By Valefor.Omnys 2016-05-31 12:46:57
Link | Quote | Reply
 
At the risk of calling a spotlight on my Paladin (it glares, I don't like it), I'd like some opinions on this.

Official Forums: Enmity in "lower-level" content

I've seen some discussions here that inspired me to write this post.

I gearswap and cureswap like a maniac, and am happy to do so. I want to be the best Paladin I can be but I don't even think the extreme level to I which I swap should be necessary. I mean, I'll continue to do it, but if it's necessary for me, I can hardly imagine what tanking is like for people that don't swap much.

I cite this month's Ambuscade as a great example. Keeping the Taurus and Demon on me is a trivial matter, even against well geared (mythic DD)--even though in the beginning you have to toss some hate at the secondary-monster, but take DD half-that-good to HTBF and it's actually a losing-fight.

For those that don't want to click..

Quote:
Tanking is a frustrating thing at the moment. In newer content, I can keep bosses glued to me absolutely no problem.

To properly single tank the taurus and demon, active hate must be kept on both targets. The way I choose to do this is that my current target gets Flashes (because my flash can be as low as 10 seconds), and the other target gets Provokes. Sometimes, I'll also use the Provoke for the main target.

Even splitting enmity like this, neither target takes their attention off me. I am a well-geared tank. I TP in a lot of enmity gear (secondary to capping defensive stats) and have a fantastic swap for Provoke and all my other abilities. I have a great haste/enmity set for Flash and Reprisal.

I know how to use sentinel, divine emblem, warcry (and rampart if it's not strategically needed). I have a strong cureswap, piled with enmity. In higher content, I can typically save sentinel for when I need it as a damage-reduction cooldown. In lower content, I pop it very early in the fight and right-away if it's mobs that have natural party-hate like Incursion, Vagary. Ambuscade also has party hate, but I just don't need to sentinel as a hate tool in there.

That said, I find myself going to HTBFs sometimes where enmity is a whole lot harder to hold. This is partly because most of this stuff has lower evasion, lower defense meaning the DDs hit harder. This is mainly because of the design of the enmity system.

The lower level the target is, the more enmity is generated by damage, while enmity from job abilities and healing remains the same. That's why DDs pull off tanks in older content so easily. This also makes enmity-cap, which is still a thing, more easily attainable for the DD and once at enmity cap--there's very little that can be done by jobs other than BLM, DRG, and THF.

The thing is, just because they outgear the content doesn't always mean they're able to tank the content.

The theory is that Square Enix considered that if enmity wasn't higher for DDs in older content, like Delve, then DDs wouldn't be able to tank in content where a tank really wasn't needed but that's pretty broad.

There's a lot of content that we outgear where a tank still is needed or is desirable, like many HTBFs.

If that theory is the truth, then how about changing it so that elemental damage and healing did reduced enmity in older content and put melee back on a flat value regardless of how old the content is.

One theory concerning high-tier battlefields is that the harder difficulties don't actually increase the level of the monster, just the stats of the monster. This is effectively similar to how we're still 99, but our gear raises our level. Essentially, our ilvl is calculated in the enmity formula but the monster's "inflated level (set by chosen difficulty)" is not.

It's crazy that damage that would never pull a Reisenjima boss off of me will pull HTBF Ultima off of me (Ultima is the breath one. Omega, I understand, because he has hate resets)

The present design has everyone else enjoying the fruits of their gear progression and tanks working harder and still failing in older content. Since enmity now affects how much hate is lost from taking damage, simply switching to Sulevia's (which has no enmity on it) is not necessarily an option either.

Even with my Burtgang AM3, I'm not going to TP nearly as fast as the blu/dnc/thf/sam/etc. That also means building up tp to 300% which can take a PLD quite a while.

I'll be honest, it's frustrating and embarrassing. People that don't know what's going on think the tank is "fail" and like to spout things like "I thought you were the tank." It takes joy out of the game temporarily to experience this. I'm actually geared enough that I can, if I give it my all, usually hold an easier NM for most or all of it's health in easier content but I get a lot of tells about other PLDs.

I've thought about posting this thread for a while but it's embarrassing to call a spotlight on yourself. It was only once I saw other tanks--that I respect--acknowledging this that I decided to bring it up on the official forums.

TL;DR: Hello, my name is Omnys and I sometimes have enmity problems in older content.
[+]
 Fenrir.Loynis
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Whknight
By Fenrir.Loynis 2016-05-31 13:14:42
Link | Quote | Reply
 
For starters I want to point out that it has been confirmed that HTBF's increase the stats, not the levels. Some folks in the RUN thread figured it out.

Going off that I can agree that for HTBFs it would be nice to see them fixed so that enmity actually works like it should have from the start, however as it stands for old content I feel the system is fine as is. If a tank is truly needed for something and the DDs keep going overboard and getting themselves killed somehow then they should hold back a bit. Not everything has to be a zergfest.

If someone calls you out for not being able to tank on this stuff, educate them. Direct them to the topics that explain this stuff and get the information out there, and if they don't care then that's their loss and they can keep looking stupid.
[+]
 Odin.Foxmulder
Offline
Server: Odin
Game: FFXI
user: Chakan
Posts: 326
By Odin.Foxmulder 2016-05-31 13:42:47
Link | Quote | Reply
 
When my static was doing those fights, we were abusing Relic RNGs who could push out major damage and not screw up enmity.

I haven't done them with a serious group sense and could only imagine the horror...
 Valefor.Omnys
Offline
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
user: omnys
Posts: 1759
By Valefor.Omnys 2016-05-31 13:52:08
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Fenrir.Loynis said: »
For starters I want to point out that it has been confirmed that HTBF's increase the stats, not the levels. Some folks in the RUN thread figured it out

I address that with

Quote:
One theory concerning high-tier battlefields is that the harder difficulties don't actually increase the level of the monster, just the stats of the monster. This is effectively similar to how we're still 99, but our gear raises our level. Essentially, our ilvl is calculated in the enmity formula but the monster's "inflated level (set by chosen difficulty)" is not.

---

Quote:
Going off that I can agree that for HTBFs it would be nice to see them fixed so that enmity actually works like it should have from the start, however as it stands for old content I feel the system is fine as is. If a tank is truly needed for something and the DDs keep going overboard and getting themselves killed somehow then they should hold back a bit. Not everything has to be a zergfest.

Eh, that puts the problem on the DD when the problem should be all-around fixable by SE.

Quote:
If someone calls you out for not being able to tank on this stuff, educate them. Direct them to the topics that explain this stuff and get the information out there, and if they don't care then that's their loss and they can keep looking stupid.

Agreed, but I think it's crappy of SE to leave this responsibility on the players, especially when a large portion of players aren't willing to read too much more than they have to.
 Fenrir.Loynis
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Whknight
By Fenrir.Loynis 2016-05-31 15:23:15
Link | Quote | Reply
 
You said theory though, it's not a theory anymore. They cracked it three weeks ago.

For those interested in reading it, you can check here. It continues down a bit and ends with a list of content that follows this setup.
[+]
 Valefor.Andrewviii
Offline
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 12
By Valefor.Andrewviii 2016-05-31 15:34:18
Link | Quote | Reply
 
If only there were some sort of job that could put big weaponskill skillchain enmity on the tank as well as reduce the enmity on other DDs. Sadly I don't think such a job exists.

All joking aside, since I pretty much bring thf to everything the tank keeping hate is a non issue since the cap increase. Smn is another job that can deal with overzealous DDs with Pacifying Ruby. Other than that the DDs can also /drg for High Jump, or just do high jump if they are a drg. Then there is also rng with decoy shot. Lots and lots of ways of DDs dealing with enmity.
 Valefor.Omnys
Offline
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
user: omnys
Posts: 1759
By Valefor.Omnys 2016-05-31 15:34:29
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Right, Martel points out how it's a small sample size but it seems to indicate the mob level doesn't increase. He's very likely right, of course.

I had to say "theory" because SE has not confirmed it and the UI would seem to indicate otherwise. Saying theory stops anyone from trying to disregard what I'm saying because I can't give an official source.

That's all.
 Fenrir.Loynis
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Whknight
By Fenrir.Loynis 2016-05-31 15:39:39
Link | Quote | Reply
 
This is why I don't mess with the official forum.
 Valefor.Omnys
Offline
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
user: omnys
Posts: 1759
By Valefor.Omnys 2016-05-31 16:17:50
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Valefor.Andrewviii said: »
If only there were some sort of job that could put big weaponskill skillchain enmity on the tank as well as reduce the enmity on other DDs. Sadly I don't think such a job exists.

Cute, lol.

Quote:
All joking aside, since I pretty much bring thf to everything the tank keeping hate is a non issue since the cap increase. Smn is another job that can deal with overzealous DDs with Pacifying Ruby. Other than that the DDs can also /drg for High Jump, or just do high jump if they are a drg. Then there is also rng with decoy shot. Lots and lots of ways of DDs dealing with enmity.

/drg is a little silly but not invalid (for trivial content). The point of my post is that the design of the game is that DD get to reap the benefits of their progression while tanks actually slide downhill.

It's not even about overzealous, it's about having to camp TP. Even my very NQ BLU gets to 3k tp pretty quick. Sure, I've been in some groups where I've seen decent tanks lose hate and I know it happened too early. I know they're not properly building hate, or not swapping for the use of hate tools and other JAs.

Yeah, if the DNC wants to solo double darkness off the bat, they deserve to lick the concrete.

And SMN is separately nice for disposable hate.

Current hate mechanics is something that SE just has in the game with no explanation within the game. I shrug it off when people have something crappy to say about what Tenzen did to them while I was tanking, but I bet it discourages a lot of tanks who aren't doing anything really wrong.

Like I said later in the OF thread, it seems a simple solution would be to make damage not inversely scale with target level unless Yonin (also making yonin available to /nin) was in effect, thus allowing DDs to tank older content while still being able to play real content.

BST 1hr-burned Maju last night, Tegmina Buffet is doing 25k spam spam spam, and the NM was dead before it ever thought to look away from me, but go do a few 15k WS on Tenzen, and you're tanking it.
 Valefor.Andrewviii
Offline
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 12
By Valefor.Andrewviii 2016-05-31 16:52:14
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Sounds like /drg is the answer then since the only time the DDs are pulling hate is on trivial content.

Also a lot of mechanics are not explained in the game. Almost all of them. The in game tool tips are little more than vague pseudo hints for what things do.

Basically if you want to play any job reading the corresponding ffxiah guide is a must. I can not stress that enough. Hell I read the guides of the jobs I don't even play just so I function better with them in parties.
 Valefor.Omnys
Offline
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
user: omnys
Posts: 1759
By Valefor.Omnys 2016-05-31 18:26:42
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Right, but this is more about understanding other people's jobs than your own. On top of that, except for a few posts here and this discussion now, there's not a lot talking about this disparity in enmity.

People have a difficult time finding out why the tank who outgears them a few times over is struggling to keep random crappy NM off them.

Heck, they won't even search because the idea is so ludicrous that it must be the tank doing something wrong.
[+]
 Fenrir.Loynis
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Whknight
By Fenrir.Loynis 2016-05-31 18:49:13
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Again, educate them. Tell them before hand that enmity is going to be an issue, explain why it's going to be an issue, point them to the relevant topics containing said information and if they still don't care then they can screw off and get themselves killed. It's as simple as that.
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Nightfyre
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2016-05-31 22:03:52
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Valefor.Omnys said: »
Right, Martel points out how it's a small sample size but it seems to indicate the mob level doesn't increase. He's very likely right, of course.

I had to say "theory" because SE has not confirmed it and the UI would seem to indicate otherwise.
If you read further you'll find posts confirming that information based on packet data.

I believe the main idea with enmity scaling was to provide a system that accounted for changes in damage output and enmity generation throughout the leveling process. Problem is, we've long since hit the top end of that scaling and yet the vast majority of relevant NMs in pre-SoA zones are either 99 (post-SoA content) or not much higher (some 99 cap content like high tier VW). Only exception I know of is Legion. The issue in my eyes isn't "trivial" content (if it's trivial then do you really need a tank at all?), it's high clevel UNMs and such where you might at least consider bringing one along.

I'm not sure how they could properly address this aside from perhaps implementing the post-SoA enmity values for any monster level 99 or higher. Even that's not really a clean solution, as it would affect some pre-SoA monsters too (both NMs and fodder). VWNMs in particular could see some odd results since phase displacers directly affect their level.
[+]
 Valefor.Omnys
Offline
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
user: omnys
Posts: 1759
By Valefor.Omnys 2016-05-31 23:51:23
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Fenrir.Loynis said: »
Again, educate them. Tell them before hand that enmity is going to be an issue, explain why it's going to be an issue, point them to the relevant topics containing said information and if they still don't care then they can screw off and get themselves killed. It's as simple as that.

I have been actually, but it does feel a little like making an excuse.

- - -

Nightfyre, none of this is disagreement with anything you said, just commentary--

Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
Valefor.Omnys said: »
Right, Martel points out how it's a small sample size but it seems to indicate the mob level doesn't increase. He's very likely right, of course.

I had to say "theory" because SE has not confirmed it and the UI would seem to indicate otherwise.

I believe the main idea with enmity scaling was to provide a system that accounted for changes in damage output and enmity generation throughout the leveling process. Problem is, we've long since hit the top end of that scaling and yet the vast majority of relevant NMs in pre-SoA zones are either 99 (post-SoA content) or not much higher (some 99 cap content like high tier VW). Only exception I know of is Legion. The issue in my eyes isn't "trivial" content (if it's trivial then do you really need a tank at all?), it's high clevel UNMs and such where you might at least consider bringing one along.

Well, I say "trivial" because it's not very hard, with a proper setup. A decent group is going to win most of the time. But yeah, I appreciate the choice of words is important.

Yeah, my feelings aren't hurt if a warrior wants to dd-tank Tojil. Heck, I like DD-tanking on some of my jobs, but the problem is that some of these aren't designed to be DD-tanked.

Quote:
I'm not sure how they could properly address this aside from perhaps implementing the post-SoA enmity values for any monster level 99 or higher. Even that's not really a clean solution, as it would affect some pre-SoA monsters too (both NMs and fodder). VWNMs in particular could see some odd results since phase displacers directly affect their level.

I wonder why they didn't just have healing and elemental magic enmity scale down in older content. Why is it that melee damage that scales up? If they had done it that way, wouldn't the effect be the same. Melee could still take truly trivial things off mages and you know what, if a mage pulls something trival every now and then, then slow up a little bit if it's an issue to your succes. Or auqaveil, phalanx, and maybe swap to some -DT gear.

Avatars, as cited in the RUN thread, are great example. The unresisted en-damage on some of their strikes is more, much more, than the strike itself. You want that hitting a designated tank and not two-shotting the warrior who pulled hate.

I do love FFXI's enmity system for it's complexity but god it cracks easily (to the point of shattering as it was in late-abyssea/early adoulin).
 Fenrir.Nightfyre
Offline
Server: Fenrir
Game: FFXI
user: Nightfyre
Posts: 11680
By Fenrir.Nightfyre 2016-06-01 00:14:04
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Valefor.Omnys said: »
I wonder why they didn't just have healing and elemental magic enmity scale down in older content.
Enmity from magic damage scales the same as physical, while healing enmity scales based on target level. The difference in enmity generation from melee vs mages stems from the fact that magic bursts generate reduced enmity, whereas I'm pretty sure skillchains still generate full enmity for the person closing them.

Quote:
the problem is that some of these aren't designed to be DD-tanked.
That just makes it even more fun! Buuut this is the PLD thread, and I can certainly understand wanting your job to function as intended.
 Valefor.Omnys
Offline
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
user: omnys
Posts: 1759
By Valefor.Omnys 2016-06-01 01:03:15
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Fenrir.Nightfyre said: »
Enmity from magic damage scales the same as physical, while healing enmity scales based on target level.

Right, what I mean is that if their goal is DDs still being able to hold hate in trivial content, then why not have DDs do the same hate across the spectrum and BLMs scale down in hate on older content.
 Sylph.Feary
Offline
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
user: feary
Posts: 455
By Sylph.Feary 2016-06-09 17:10:25
Link | Quote | Reply
 
As im understanding hte previous posts, the TP sets in this guide isnt what we would tank in on higher content. Since given the changes to enmity, what would we use? an enmity gearset?
Offline
Posts: 4027
By Blazed1979 2016-06-09 17:22:18
Link | Quote | Reply
 
too lazy to read all the back and forth - what changes to enmity resulted in a change to how tanks approach tanking?
have the ABCs changed?
- Pump out as much dmg as you can
- Cast your enmity spells in capped fastcast/enmity
- voke in enmity
- don't fall flat on your face
First Page 2 3 ... 19 20 21 ... 136 137 138
Log in to post.