March (the Month) 2015 Update

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March (the month) 2015 Update
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By dustinfoley 2015-03-04 08:07:18
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Puppetmaster
The following adjustments will be made to spells cast by automatons equipped with soothsayer heads.

The casting time for Protectra and Shellra will be reduced.
* This change will also apply to Protectra and Shellra spells cast by players.

The area of effect of Protectra and Shellra will be increased.
* This change will not apply to Protectra and Shellra cast by players.

The effect duration of maneuvers will increase based on the amount of time elapsed since using Deploy.
* This effect is removed whenever the automaton is knocked out or deactivated.
* This effect is maintained even if combat ends, whether by vanquishing monsters, retrieving the automaton, or other such means.

Kinda meh stuff.
Protectra/shellra never really seemed bad before, but o well, welcome bonus

The duration one bothers me for a few reason.
1) Longer duration = less overload/micro managing, which is nice, but now that maneuvers dont use JA delay, maintaining them isnt really an issue, and i havent overloaded since cirque body +2

2) Being able to activate, deploy, retrieve to extend the duration seems odd. I was thinking it might make more sense if the duration was based on time since activate.

I guess it all depends on how long the extended duration is...and how long a pet must be deployed before it reaches that point.

Also, if RDM changes affect mobs/pets as well, our rdm pet just got better at debuffing i guess.
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By Siren.Sieha 2015-03-04 08:28:39
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ha i thought they were upping the haste on march or changing it. nvm.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2015-03-04 15:09:07
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dustinfoley said: »
Protectra/shellra never really seemed bad before, but o well, welcome bonus

Pro/Shell priority IS kind of obnoxious if you are using Deactivate intentionally, and is a nice (though certainly not massive) change. I use PUP/NIN with Soulsoother regularly in Divine Might v2. Ventriloquy frequently to dump my hate, Deactivate to completely wipe that hate, and every time I reactivate it's a slow Protectra/Shellra cast on the puppet itself and delaying use of other spells. Not that I'm really THAT concerned about the extra spells when I'm mainly bringing the puppet simply as an empty enmity bucket to toss my hate into, but it's helpful to have the extra hastes, -nas, Regen, cures, etc.

The weird thing is that Pro/Shell duration is pretty much ONLY an issue when deactivating intentionally, and they're gonna address that in the update when they finally decide to do something to make it less beneficial to deactivate???

Quote:
The duration one bothers me for a few reason.
1) Longer duration = less overload/micro managing, which is nice, but now that maneuvers dont use JA delay, maintaining them isnt really an issue

Absolutely. It's simply a non-issue now with the JA delay changes, other than a minor convenience.

Had they wanted to actually give a benefit to keeping the puppet out longer, they should have done something related to potency of the pet, not maneuver duration. I think it would have been pretty hard to just up maneuver potency with all the havoc it would cause with attachments, so my best idea would be something like a frame-specific buff (with some upper cap). For instance, keep Sharpshot out and you gradually get a Racc/Ratt bonus up to, say, +20 of each. Or Valoredge gets PDT/MDT or maybe crit rate, Mage body gets Macc and some native refresh, etc.

Still feel that the automaton's real problem is lack of offensive potential, and the WS update last month didn't help much. The new attachments are nice enough, but a more significant bump in WS would have been a way to really make the automaton matter again.
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By Shiva.Tahngarthor 2015-03-04 16:57:24
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To me, it's not about the hassle, it's about efficiency. I can't imagine why anyone would complain about slightly fewer button presses being needed to maintain the desired automaton behavior/effects. A welcome change to me.

Also, about pro/shellra- it takes longer to cast than single target version that the auto was casting before the previous version update. The long delay and strong desire to cast it has gotten me killed before, believe it or not. And every time you reactivate, the auto wants to cast it again because he doesn't have the effect anymore. So it's a welcome change, again. None of these changes are exactly dramatic, but they are nice. And I'm not complaining since PUP has gotten some buff or another in nearly every update in the last several months.
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By Fenrir.Flyingsquirrel 2015-03-04 20:44:02
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It seems to me like no one on these forums know how to play pup, nor use the automaton to its full potential. I too used to go to dm2 and just drop hate on my whm auto and focus on the master, but since the latest updates pup has become so much more. It's easy to cap 87.5%pdt(even without using maneuvers) it's easy to make shiva v2 normal's diamond dust do 50 damage to the puppet, and it's an absolute blast to have 2 pups duo all kinds of end game content.

I have been using 0 accuracy attatchments, and my puppet parses 98% accuracy in in everything I've done so far. Me and nezha have gotten avatars done so easy we are gonna start moving up to tough this week. Abuse the pet stats on Taeon gear, grab a pup buddy, and start figuring out how to duo things. Let me tell you pup, nor this game have been as much fun ever, and I've been playing this game since NA release, and main pup since toau came out.

Over the past few weeks me and others in my linkshell have been wondering when pup will get nerfed, because right now it's extremely extremely strong, but after reading how all the people who claim to know the job view pup on these forums SE doesn't have to nerf it because no one actually knows how to use pup to its full potential.

If you wanna stay stuck in pup of 3 years ago, be my guest, but if you want to really learn pup, pm me or come over to Fenrir. Gonna look for some more capable pups to go VD on high tier battles, and do all pup delve, because it's 100% possible. I'll actually start posting screen shots of the accomplishments 2 pups can do duo, and maybe some of these "pup lovers" can wake up a little.

It sickens me to see kenkonken pups be so clueless about their job
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By dustinfoley 2015-03-04 21:11:34
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no offense but post gear sets/attachments and parses or gtfo

no one is going to buy that your pet has 98% acc with 0 acc attachments, you lost all credibility right there.

pet only stuff is great, and im not arguing the 87% pdt is possible with VE, but honestly the acc comment is total bs.

And i dont say this out of spite. i use my pet to solo/dou a lot. My ve with no acc attachments would have floored acc on easy aa mr. Thats with the +80 acc from my current gear, and another 100 from food. With full taeon, i could add another 60 acc/12% crit rate over my current pet set, and that still wouldnt be enough acc.

It would be enough acc if i used target marker. but you said no acc attachments.


And thats not even mentioning you have to pick between pet haste and pet dt with taeon, or pray for an off orb stat.
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By Fenrir.Flyingsquirrel 2015-03-04 21:40:58
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I'll post a parse as soon as nezha is on to duo with me. We have a ramuh and Levi planned as soon as we both are on. I'll also post gear sets and attachments. I use coiler2 and coiler 1 for thunder spots and I'm always 98% acc. On Normal difficult avatars.

I have full pet haste set with taeon, and I'm working on my second set for -dt

edit: If someone gave me a link to video taking software id be happy to even video it.
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By Fenrir.Flyingsquirrel 2015-03-04 22:42:06
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Here's the gear i used in pet set. (all taeon have 24 to 25 acc, except the hands are 25 attack/ranged attack)



Here's the attatchments (its in japanese, but the only 2 thunder are coilers



Here's the ACC parse, i only used akamochi nq, and Nez forgot to eat food lol




If we did it duo, it would take us about 23-24min for this Levi (normal), but we added a thf for TH (we were selling gear) and a SMN to show off pup power =P For this, it took us 17min 23 seconds (and we got a weapon drop)

Since I fulltime DD focus on the puppet, and Nez fulltime tank focus, we get about a 65%/35% for damage on the parse, and often get 2hrs that hit for about 230-350 damage only (with auto repair 3 this is a joke).

EDIT: acc pre-food is at 1023 on puppet, no acc attatchments
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 Fenrir.Nezha
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By Fenrir.Nezha 2015-03-05 00:45:07
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This makes me wonder who's credibility is really in question here...
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 Asura.Highwynn
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By Asura.Highwynn 2015-03-05 01:05:58
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Pet acc did get a huge boost a few months ago(my wyvern has over 900acc which is what i have in my midacc build) and shiromochi is also like 140ish pet acc. Doesn't seem too unreasonable. I assume sharpshot gets native acc boosts or something too.
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By Fenrir.Duvelamilla 2015-03-05 01:14:52
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As you can see I was the SMN for that fight it was a blast, the Pepsi can (Auto's as I call em) Did amazing. I also have pup leveled I am just now learning its full potential running around with Nez & Fly, they have a lot of great tips I suggest if you need advice to take em up on the offer to pick their brains.
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By Shiva.Siviard 2015-03-05 01:45:42
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Fenrir.Flyingsquirrel said: »
Here's the gear i used in pet set. (all taeon have 24 to 25 acc, except the hands are 25 attack/ranged attack)



Here's the attatchments (its in japanese, but the only 2 thunder are coilers



Here's the ACC parse, i only used akamochi nq, and Nez forgot to eat food lol




If we did it duo, it would take us about 23-24min for this Levi (normal), but we added a thf for TH (we were selling gear) and a SMN to show off pup power =P For this, it took us 17min 23 seconds (and we got a weapon drop)

Since I fulltime DD focus on the puppet, and Nez fulltime tank focus, we get about a 65%/35% for damage on the parse, and often get 2hrs that hit for about 230-350 damage only (with auto repair 3 this is a joke).

EDIT: acc pre-food is at 1023 on puppet, no acc attatchments

Very impressive. We haven't had much reason to do the Avatar Prime fights, sadly.
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By Fenrir.Flyingsquirrel 2015-03-05 04:13:36
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Just did a 13 min duo Ramuh...
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By dustinfoley 2015-03-05 05:30:30
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So to break it down.

Base acc is roughly 850
taeon head/body/legs/feet = 125 acc (you said no hands, and i gave you 25acc per piece)
ring = 20 acc
kargoz +1 = 15 acc
shiromochi = 100ish acc

~1135 acc, which on a normal level high tier fight is about 80% acc. (well on aa mr on ve)

If you use target marker and ignore 25% of mobs evasion, that will put you closer to 95% acc.
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By dustinfoley 2015-03-05 05:34:47
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Clearly list all the gear you are using, yes its taeons, yes it has acc +, but what else. is it pdt or haste. is it crit or da. I checked your item sets, nada.

whats the checkparam of your pet on a normal fight while engaged (aka maneuvers up).

Finally, trioing/duoing stuff like avatar fights on normal in 2-3x the time a group could do it hardly seems worth it. When bst have been doing it solo since avatars came out.

Yes taeons gear is great, and if you have the money can make a pet only set. But at the end of the day your douing content thats hardly worth even spending the merits on.

Even if you clear a delve with just pets, which i 100% agree is possible, it will be slower and less efficent than with players, so i really dont get the point of making a pet only set for the sake of doing it.

If you have time/money, sure go for it, and solo/duo to your hearts content... If you want party invites for things other than pet only fights, invest in a acc/atk + ta + str/dex taeon set.
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By Fenrir.Flyingsquirrel 2015-03-05 07:11:24
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dustinfoley said: »
So to break it down.
I am not saying you cant kill this stuff solo/duo/trio, just that your 98% acc statement with no acc attachments is total garbage. Unless you are doing it on very easy...then its possible.

I just hate when people make garbage claims with no proof.

Please look at the screenshot again.. and then talk.. HINT its in english and its in party chat.. for scoreboard you have to do "//sb reportstat acc p" in order to see acc.. its 98.67% to be exact.

dustinfoley said: »
Clearly list all the gear you are using, yes its taeons, yes it has acc +, but what else. is it pdt or haste. is it crit or da. I checked your item sets, nada.

using food i take it (shiromochi)?

Once again.. go read before you post.. I said akamochi, and also I said haste. I didn't say double attack nor crit, but all pieces are 4-5 double attack.


dustinfoley said: »
Finally, trioing/duoing stuff like avatar fights on normal in 2-3x the time a group could do it hardly seems worth it. When bst have been doing it solo since avatars came out.

Even if you clear a delve with just pets, which i 100% agree is possible, it will be slower and less efficent than with players, so i really dont get the point of making a pet only set for the sake of doing it.

If you have time/money, sure go for it, and solo/duo to your hearts content... If you want party invites for things other than pet only fights, invest in a acc/atk + ta + str/dex taeon set.


While you wait for 6 people to go kill whatever it takes, go ahead and shout for 30 min and be my guest.. When I brought up the topic it was because I said "This is the most fun Ive had on pup and ive been playing it since the beginning"

It doesnt matter what drops, it doesnt matter what I'm doing it for, it's an extreme amount of fun to duo pups and beat content like this. I play the game to have fun (and of course I hate losing and wasting time).

What is content now a days thats hardly worth anything? skirmish? Ok, go ahead and be book person or kill some elementals for hours every day.

I'm just sharing how I enjoy pup, and I'm sick of reading people like you come on these forums and say how garbage it is, even though you love the job so much..


tldr
- get glasses
- I like pup
- get the sand outa your vag and own up to me being right



If you don't believe me that I have 98.67% acc with no acc attatchments on normal difficulty high tier battles you can

1. try it for yourself
2. or go - yourself

I don't need to waste my time trying to prove anything more to you
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By dustinfoley 2015-03-05 07:41:52
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I love/enjoy pup too, but solo/dou/trioing old content isnt my idea of fun, and it wont get anyone party invites to any new events. So saying people play pup wrong cause we dont use your style is just jibba jab. Who wants to wait till 3 months after something comes out to dou it. Id rather advise people on the gear to get/how to play if they want to get into new content NOW.
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By Phoenix.Capuchin 2015-03-05 14:56:30
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Hey flyingsquirrel, I see you have some really good insight to share and that's pretty cool. But could you tone down the outright hostility? No reason to start your conversation by talking about how much it "sickens" you that nobody but you knows how to play PUP or make all these insulting comments to people who aren't being rude to you at all. How about you share your tips in a more positive way?

That being said, I'm with dustinfoley here. It's cool and all that you CAN do quirky stuff like duo/trio on N avatars, but it's a little bit pointless to me. I'd like it more if PUP gets further balanced to contribute in new content with more typical party setups, so I can go do stuff with my whole LS on PUP instead of just playing around with it on my solo time.

I mentioned Soulsooter and a meleeing master on DM, and there's no reason to dismiss that as some "old" stuff you used to do before you knew how great PUP was. It's still a very valuable style if you're doing group content where you need a DD that generates little hate. My LS does DM sometimes, we're not trying to lowman because we welcome all 10-15 people who may want to come (and my PUP can still parse #1 DD while keeping hate under control and getting some benefit from the spells the auto is tossing out). The fact that you can duo an easy avatar doesn't mean you can't also do other stuff with PUP.

I do like Valoredge a lot more these days though. Solid defense (though not exactly enough to hold up to AoE in hard ilevel group content with just repair and auto-repair kits) along with respectable damage.

But anyway, we should probably move this stuff to the main thread. Getting off topic here with duo strats and general PUP discussion in a thread that's supposed to be about the March updates.
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By Fenrir.Flyingsquirrel 2015-03-05 16:57:00
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Phoenix.Capuchin said: »
Hey flyingsquirrel, I see you have some really good insight to share and that's pretty cool. But could you tone down the outright hostility? No reason to start your conversation by talking about how much it "sickens" you that nobody but you knows how to play PUP or make all these insulting comments to people who aren't being rude to you at all. How about you share your tips in a more positive way?

You're absolutely right, I should have toned it down. I was just getting upset always reading your's and Dustin's bash on PUP always saying the things it can't do, and the things it "needs" to contend with other jobs

The truth is, SE creates jobs differently, and yes some are stronger in killing a mob 1 min faster than others, but hardly any can do the other things that pup can do. I have a fulltime master set, low, mid, high acc, fodder, all ws sets, I use the auto like a trashcan curebot sometimes, and play to win the parses in end game content just like you.

However, what I'm trying to say is that instead of saying "puppet needs pdt" "puppet needs acc buffs" etc., you can look at what SE already gave us and see that those are 100% already things in the game.

I want to just show those people that keep saying "oh pup used to be one of my favorite jobs, I want to come back but it looks like I shouldn't" that there is so much more to pup then just trying to max dps in a 130+ incursion (I'm not saying you shouldn't, with the right sets its easy to parse high even on pup). I'm trying to show that there's a TON of benefit to playing pup, especially in low man situations, especially recently with the addition of the new attachments and taeon gear.

Yes, go build full master set, and if you enjoy pup at all, I HIGHLY recommend you build a full pet set as well. The things you can do on PUP are EXTREMELY fun, and if duoing avatars isn't fun for you, you can just always sell the drops and then tell yourself its worth it (you really should try it)

I'll start another thread for some of mine and Nez's duo adventures. We are gonna try duo Ramuh on Tough since he was easy easy on normal mode this week. Hopefully we can inspire more people to play pup, and get a few negatives that have been stated about the job away.

IF anyone wants to join us, more PUPS (or any pet job) are completely welcome in our runs. You can come to any content on the job, and we will figure out how to get it done. Would be awesome to try VD soon. Send me a pm, or come on over to Fenrir.
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By Shiva.Spathaian 2015-03-05 17:20:52
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The problem I see with this discussion is that it's going further and further away from what I enjoyed PUP as from the beginning...

Yes it's a pet job, for soloing/duoing harder content it is obviously easier to focus on the pet.

Yes, for maximum damage it's best to focus on master.

But the original reason I picked up the job was because unlike BST or SMN the idea behind PUP was less a focus on the pet or master but rather more on how you worked synergetically with your automaton you were one being when fighting, that's the PUP many people want back and it in no way means that it's not possible to do things on PUP just that the focus has completely changed.

As for people "bashing on PUP" Dustin and Capuchin never out right bash PUP. They notice its flaws in current efficient strategies and admit to them being there. Things will always be possible with PUP, and in certain areas it has and always will be particularly strong. But if you foolishly ignore that there are problems with the job then you're part of the problem with the community.

PUP is not too strong, PUP is not too weak, it simply is what it is and sadly has developed many "flaws" as time has progressed.

That's all of my input on the subject.
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By baroma 2015-03-05 22:19:00
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I'm stuck on if I should stop upgrading AF2 to 119 and just wait for Empy 119 stuff. I'm a casual player that mainly solos stuff. Save my gil and "wait and see"?
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By Fenrir.Flyingsquirrel 2015-03-06 00:52:27
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baroma said: »
I'm stuck on if I should stop upgrading AF2 to 119 and just wait for Empy 119 stuff. I'm a casual player that mainly solos stuff. Save my gil and "wait and see"?

As long as you have legs and feet and body to 109 for ability benefits, you dont "Need" any AF2 +1 for solo play etc. I still do use AF2+1 body in a few of my sets, but you can easily get around it, especially if just playing casually.
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By dustinfoley 2015-03-06 11:28:25
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baroma said: »
I'm stuck on if I should stop upgrading AF2 to 119 and just wait for Empy 119 stuff. I'm a casual player that mainly solos stuff. Save my gil and "wait and see"?

First off, i apologize for coming off as an asshat myself. If everything you said is true, i will give you the benefit of the doubt (still building gear so cant parse it yet. It just rubbed me the wrong way that you said we all played pup wrong and i was so angry to see a pet onry strategy from a jp player, that i didnt focus enough on your data.

~ Back on topic~
Most af stuff only needed the 109 for the pet haste and abilities.
Relic body was for the acc/ and even then it was a paltry gain from 109-119 for the pet but a decent tp piece for the master.

Now that you can have both acc and haste AND crit or DA with taeons, i would say dont bother upgrading af at all past 109. Although if your strapped for cash, my original recomendation still stands.

Build a taeons set with ta/acc/atk/str/dex for the master. If you have spare cash, build a pet only one.


On a side note, with coiler 1+2+dynamo.
Coiler 1 = 3/10/20/30
Assuming 2 = 10/20/30/40
dynamo = 3/5/7/9

With 1 thunder up, your at 30% crit rate. Whats better for taeons, 20% crit rate or 25% da?

Basicaly 50% crit / 5% da or 30% crit 30% da?

100 attack
Model 1- 5% are da so 105 attacks, ~52 of them crit
Model 2- 30% are da so 130 attack, ~40 of them crit
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By baroma 2015-03-06 11:59:36
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Fenrir.Flyingsquirrel said: »
baroma said: »
I'm stuck on if I should stop upgrading AF2 to 119 and just wait for Empy 119 stuff. I'm a casual player that mainly solos stuff. Save my gil and "wait and see"?

As long as you have legs and feet and body to 109 for ability benefits, you dont "Need" any AF2 +1 for solo play etc. I still do use AF2+1 body in a few of my sets, but you can easily get around it, especially if just playing casually.


Thanks. That just saved me tons of gil, lol.
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By dustinfoley 2015-03-06 17:28:56
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Quote:
On a side note, with coiler 1+2+dynamo.
Coiler 1 = 3/10/20/30
Assuming 2 = 10/20/30/40
dynamo = 3/5/7/9

With 1 thunder up, your at 30% crit rate. Whats better for taeons, 20% crit rate or 25% da?

Basicaly 50% crit / 5% da or 30% crit 30% da?

100 attack
Model 1- 5% are da so 105 attacks, ~52 of them crit
Model 2- 30% are da so 130 attack, ~40 of them crit

Assuming pets behave similarly to people, i messed with pup dps spread sheet and 25 da>20crit rate (none ws), and 20da~20crtate.

On stuff you way out level, da >>> crit rate, on stuff thats higher than you, but you cap acc/atk on, they are about even with DA winning by 1-2 dps.

That said, if they are about the same, go for 5 da or 4 c.rate i guess
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By Fenrir.Nezha 2015-03-07 02:50:17
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dustinfoley said: »
baroma said: »
I'm stuck on if I should stop upgrading AF2 to 119 and just wait for Empy 119 stuff. I'm a casual player that mainly solos stuff. Save my gil and "wait and see"?

First off, i apologize for coming off as an asshat myself. If everything you said is true, i will give you the benefit of the doubt (still building gear so cant parse it yet. It just rubbed me the wrong way that you said we all played pup wrong and i was so angry to see a pet onry strategy from a jp player, that i didnt focus enough on your data.

~ Back on topic~
Most af stuff only needed the 109 for the pet haste and abilities.
Relic body was for the acc/ and even then it was a paltry gain from 109-119 for the pet but a decent tp piece for the master.

Now that you can have both acc and haste AND crit or DA with taeons, i would say dont bother upgrading af at all past 109. Although if your strapped for cash, my original recomendation still stands.

Build a taeons set with ta/acc/atk/str/dex for the master. If you have spare cash, build a pet only one.


On a side note, with coiler 1+2+dynamo.
Coiler 1 = 3/10/20/30
Assuming 2 = 10/20/30/40
dynamo = 3/5/7/9

With 1 thunder up, your at 30% crit rate. Whats better for taeons, 20% crit rate or 25% da?

Basicaly 50% crit / 5% da or 30% crit 30% da?

100 attack
Model 1- 5% are da so 105 attacks, ~52 of them crit
Model 2- 30% are da so 130 attack, ~40 of them crit

Using Motenten's DPS spreadsheets I found Crit Dmg+3 to be better than STR/DEX or STR/VIT for DPS and WS since it caps at +7 for those stats. If you were able to do +10 on them (specifically STR/VIT) that would be the only thing better. WSDmg obvious no good because it only applies to the first hit.
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By dustinfoley 2015-03-07 05:54:50
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ah i was just looking at the mnk page for augments, i hadnt actually plugged crate or cdmg in to our own spreadsheet.
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By Fenrir.Nezha 2015-03-08 11:57:55
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From soloing AAs on normal, I think this maneuver duration update is gonna be very nice, I keep the same maneuvers up all fight, so it will be nice only having to focus on Pet WS Gear swaps etc, plus my pets PDT plummets on my maneuver macros, due to trying to minimize overload rate. I'm gonna post gear sets, maneuvers, and attachment set up (which require +2 elemental capacities) later, posted screen shots of fights/droplist my account. I'm currently working on a strat for soloing EV on norm.
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