Teach Me The RUN.

Language: JP EN DE FR
New Items
2023-11-19
users online
Forum » FFXI » Jobs » Rune Fencer » Teach me the RUN.
Teach me the RUN.
First Page 2 3
 Shiva.Ladyofhonor
Offline
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 74
By Shiva.Ladyofhonor 2015-01-14 23:38:30
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Alright, so RUN was my chosen #2 job from a while back, and I think I finally have the gear and desire to put it to work. A while back I tried it on Ouryu, could barely keep hate/stay alive, didn't go well, put it down for a bit. Just tried an AAHM, for the most part I think I did great...until the 2366 CDC (not skillchain, single ws) killed me and we wiped at 2%.

I was using /nin, spamming the hell out of utsusemi's, attempting to pay attention to all that was going on, all my timers and recasts and buffs, etc. I swear I had Foil up, should've had Phalanx up, and should have been in my PDT set. Here's my gearswap sets:

PDT - head="Futhark Bandeau +1",neck="Wiglen Gorget",ear1="Flashward Earring",ear2="Ethereal Earring",
body="Futhark Coat +1",hands="Qaaxo Mitaines",ring1="Patricius Ring",ring2="Defending Ring",
back="Evasionist's Cape",waist="Flume Belt",legs="Runeist Trousers +1",feet="Futhark Boots +1"

PDT is at 45% + JSE sword = 50% PDT

General engaged - ammo="Honed Tathlum",
head="Lithelimb Cap", neck="Ej Necklace", ear1="Bladeborn Earring", ear2="Steelflash Earring",
body="Emet Harness", hands="Qaaxo Mitaines", ring1="Patricius Ring", ring2="Beeline Ring",
back="Evasionist's Cape", waist="Anguinus Belt", legs="Runeist Trousers +1", feet="Futhark Boots +1"

My Unity was actually in first so I figured it was perfect alignment for Emet.

I guess I should have been using tacos, and asking the BRD for defense songs at the end?

And general play is:

Keep shadows up.
Flash every few seconds.
Foil as needed (or straight up spam?)

If any free time between those, ws/refresh/rebuff...?

I hardly had any time to do anything but utsusemi/flash/foil, and it just felt hectic and not very...fun. Is AAHM just a bad fight for us? Is /nin always that insanely spammy? Am I doing something incredibly wrong?


Also, where can I get some practice? WKR's with Trusts? Anywhere else?
 Ragnarok.Martel
Offline
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2894
By Ragnarok.Martel 2015-01-14 23:54:11
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Thoughts.

Aettir's PDT is PDT II. So if you pushed your PDT set up to 50% before Aettir, then you could hit 55% with it.

Save battuta for the last 25%? It's pretty damn potent defensively.

If you were spamming spells/utsu as fast as it sounds, then it's entirely possibly the you got hit with that during a cast. So unless your ustu midcast set is loaded up with PDT, that could explain the pain. And there's very little you can do about it, cause AA's are one of the few mobs that WS instantly(is there even a readies msg for their sword ws?)

Alternatively... Speculation. No evidence to support this that I know of, but.. SE recently buffed CDC. Often times, when SE changes something for players, it inadvertently changes it for mobs as well. AAHM, may have been enjoying a buffed up, fTP carried CDC, possibly with brazen rush up. <,<;
[+]
 Sylph.Feary
Offline
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
user: feary
Posts: 455
By Sylph.Feary 2015-01-14 23:56:03
Link | Quote | Reply
 
teach how to runey,
teach me, teach me how to runey
[+]
Offline
Posts: 720
By Nazrious 2015-01-14 23:56:08
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Thoughts.

Aettir's PDT is PDT II. So if you pushed your PDT set up to 50% before Aettir, then you could hit 55% with it.

Save battuta for the last 25%? It's pretty damn potent defensively.

If you were spamming spells/utsu as fast as it sounds, then it's entirely possibly the you got hit with that during a cast. So unless your ustu midcast set is loaded up with PDT, that could explain the pain. And there's very little you can do about it, cause AA's are one of the few mobs that WS instantly(is there even a readies msg for their sword ws?)

Alternatively... Speculation. No evidence to support this that I know of, but.. SE recently buffed CDC. Often times, when SE changes something for players, it inadvertently changes it for mobs as well. AAHM, may have been enjoying a buffed up, fTP carried CDC, possibly with brazen rush up. <,<;

nah AA ws work diff, cus f Me AAMR and her wtfpwn cloudsplitters b4 the updates.
 Shiva.Ladyofhonor
Offline
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 74
By Shiva.Ladyofhonor 2015-01-15 00:23:19
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Thoughts.

Aettir's PDT is PDT II. So if you pushed your PDT set up to 50% before Aettir, then you could hit 55% with it.

Save battuta for the last 25%? It's pretty damn potent defensively.

If you were spamming spells/utsu as fast as it sounds, then it's entirely possibly the you got hit with that during a cast. So unless your ustu midcast set is loaded up with PDT, that could explain the pain. And there's very little you can do about it, cause AA's are one of the few mobs that WS instantly(is there even a readies msg for their sword ws?)

Alternatively... Speculation. No evidence to support this that I know of, but.. SE recently buffed CDC. Often times, when SE changes something for players, it inadvertently changes it for mobs as well. AAHM, may have been enjoying a buffed up, fTP carried CDC, possibly with brazen rush up. <,<;

Right, I know I can theoretically get higher PDT, but...where? Other than a 3% from getting and capping the Qaaxo feet, where can I get some more PDT in my set? Mollusca over my JSE cape? Seems a pretty steep price to pay for a couple %, especially since I got a DA/enmity augment on the cape.

I did use Battuta earlier in the fight, I think I somehow had both Val's down at once, think I misread my timers and popped it to stay up. Guess I can try to save that better.

Utsu midcast set...that's a solid point, guess I'll want to go toss in my best -dt to that set where I can. This very well could be the major issue, good call.

I considered the same thing about CDC, but I think we'd have heard about it from PLD's well before today, I mean CDC was basically doubled in damage in that update, right? Though I have seen PLD's get wrecked by WS's in AA's (my alt plays WHM when...necessary) so I know sometimes ***just happens.

So it sounds like I'm "playing" it about right, then? And just some fine-tuning and experience will make things more normal for me. I think a slower swinging boss could make things a bit easier to handle as well, but guy wanted to come DRK and I had just set up all my macros/gearswap so figured I'd just wing it.
 Sylph.Jeanpaul
MSPaint Champion
Offline
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
user: JeanPaul
Posts: 2623
By Sylph.Jeanpaul 2015-01-15 00:23:22
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Intrinsically, you are playing the job right. It sounds like it may just be an issue of practice, particularly blink tanking. What difficulty are you doing these fights on?

AA Hume is probably the hardest thing for a RUN to tank due to his ability to mow down shadows without any effort. CDC is crit based, so it's possible you were unlucky. Try saving Battuta for those emergency moments, or at least towards the final stretch.

Ouryu does have hate reset, making it a little less than ideal for any dedicated tank. Fortunately, RUN does have strong hate building moves as well as some useful supporting moves. Anyway, your issues in that fight may have been your party's overall strategy rather than a weakness on your part. I haven't done Ouryu as RUN though, I've always gone THF, so I can't offer much insight here.

Foil apparently degrades over time (as said by the status description), so spamming it is technically better. There's not really any figures about potency however, but it can save you a hit or two, and generates good hate as well.

For practice, a number of merit BCs are manageable to solo on lower difficulties, even duo on Normal (my personal best is Ramuh solo on Normal). While part of it is becoming more familiar with your abilities, it's really more about becoming familiar with your enemies. Soloing WKRs provides insight for Delve bosses, but that's about it. For these high level fights, you'll only learn from trying more and more. Because these enemies are unique, you really can't practice on them any other way.

Other fights worth playing around with for insight on the job (whether solo or with limited support):
- Delve outside NMs
- Rani and other high-end Abyssea enemies
- Bloodthirsty Dweorg and other Salvage II bosses
- VT enemies in Inner Ra'Kaznar and the connecting Gates
- Adoulin mission BCs
- Surged Walk of Echoes (ok, bring people for this or you'll time out)
- Voidwatch NMs
- PW, AV, ADL
[+]
Offline
Posts: 720
By Nazrious 2015-01-15 00:33:29
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Just spam tojis, will give u a base to work up on skill, just let ur PT know u want practice so they aren't expecting fantastic things. and plasm, so yay.
 Shiva.Ladyofhonor
Offline
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 74
By Shiva.Ladyofhonor 2015-01-15 00:37:14
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Oh this was AAHM Difficult. Never messed with VD's, but unless I REALLY want to burn some merits, I don't do normals.

Oh yes, reminds me that CDC-crit based would also TEAR through my average defense RUN, too. So he likely got all hits connected and all a few crits and boom, there I go. Fight should've already been over, but my melee were idiots.

Ouryu had at least one issue, I thought rune spamming was still the method to keeping hate, learned afterwards it's almost no enmity now, woops! So between wrong-playing and hate resets, tanking was tough, hah. And yeah I normally would just go on THF. I was THF only for almost my entire playtime, but with Yorcia delve, and some very anti-melee fights, I figured another job was needed, and another light armor job to share gear with is great. THF and RUN can utilize all the DT/MAB gear between the two, with few exceptions. I've done blink tanking before a ton, but THF is always a bit different than other jobs...it actually evades, on almost anything. I think I parsed a 55% evasion rate back on a Colibri meripo parse back in the day.

Guess it's time to venture into the guide thread and see what all it has for potential gear upgrades...
 Shiva.Ladyofhonor
Offline
Server: Shiva
Game: FFXI
Posts: 74
By Shiva.Ladyofhonor 2015-01-15 00:38:53
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Nazrious said: »
Just spam tojis, will give u a base to work up on skill, just let ur PT know u want practice so they aren't expecting fantastic things. and plasm, so yay.

I've been considering trying Tojil/Shark as RUN/DRK and acting as stun-master. Working on the Ergon weapon so need the plasm, too.

How capable is RUN in Yorcia delve? Really want to try farming that a bit for the plasm sword...RUN/SAM I'd assume.
Offline
Posts: 720
By Nazrious 2015-01-15 00:48:52
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Shiva.Ladyofhonor said: »
Nazrious said: »
Just spam tojis, will give u a base to work up on skill, just let ur PT know u want practice so they aren't expecting fantastic things. and plasm, so yay.

I've been considering trying Tojil/Shark as RUN/DRK and acting as stun-master. Working on the Ergon weapon so need the plasm, too.

How capable is RUN in Yorcia delve? Really want to try farming that a bit for the plasm sword...RUN/SAM I'd assume.

I would not /drk get a stunner or just try to straight faceroll with your melee in dt sets when needed.

Shark is very easy with RUN the problem is your support will need impact/ capped merited skills etc for it. So if u got a decent back line either will do if not then just do tojil and get your licks in on the Boss as in reality a non stun Toji is best way to get a handle on stuff and not needed a baller pt to get to him.

Meh I would wonder at Runs output, geo might outstrip their damage in yorcia, and the whole thing gets easier the better your DD are. *shrug* never even thought / tried it. Lion though would be a good one for Run.
 Lakshmi.Buukki
Offline
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2015-01-15 08:25:34
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Mollusca Mantle is an upgrade. Its worth it. Idk what the crunch on the numbers are, but I believe Iuitl/+1 can get -4% pdt (i have -4% on my nq feet and hands). You have Dring, but I don't, and I'm pushing -51% DT on RUN (and using twilight and not wiglen), so you can definitely improve. Also, you didn't mention using Phalanx or Stoneskin. I know you were saying you had trouble doing anything else besides casting utsu (which, based on how fast HM attacks, is understandable), but you could probably forgo using flash once or twice to put Phalanx back up. Assuming you have a stoneskin build BG Stoneskin, and you can ask your WHM to not use cureskin (someone suggested this for me).

With either Val up and a decent FC build, stoneskin doesn't take any longer than Utsusemi to cast. Same with Phalanx. Of course, getting hit with a CDC to the face is hard to survive. probably can save your *** with a swordplay (and spamming foils too).

Idk, i'm still learning the job too, so this was a good read. I think the important thing to do is to get into a good cycle of spells/abilities and well-timed runes Wards. My first tank job was a Diff Stellar Fulcrum, and I was punished a few times.
Offline
Posts: 720
By Nazrious 2015-01-15 11:38:43
Link | Quote | Reply
 
been a long while since I brd'd AAs but, Scherzo?
 Asura.Highwynn
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Highwynd
Posts: 725
By Asura.Highwynn 2015-01-15 11:43:42
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Always flash between ws when fighting Galka. Even on VD with PLD's C- evasion it causes 1-2 of his ws during meikyo to miss, breaking his sc. Probably more effective on RUN.
 Lakshmi.Zerowone
Offline
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
user: Zerowone
Posts: 6949
By Lakshmi.Zerowone 2015-01-15 11:48:28
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Flash+Foil is your friend so is Battuta. Liement might also be a good idea if you know that eating a WS causes a SC that will kill you.
 Asura.Highwynn
Offline
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
user: Highwynd
Posts: 725
By Asura.Highwynn 2015-01-15 11:53:53
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Unfortunately, even capped evasion rate is 80% so 20% of the time they'll getcha with a hit or two of their ws and may even rarely land a full WS, un-evaded on you. whats the max base parrying rate with inquartata(not counting JA) and how does it compound with max evasion rate of 80%?
 Lakshmi.Buukki
Offline
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
By Lakshmi.Buukki 2015-01-16 11:25:28
Link | Quote | Reply
 
OP should consider using Inlamvuyeso for your PDT ammo. Since you're already using Honed for tp set, you only lose 5 acc, but gain 10defense during DT build.
 Siren.Sieha
Offline
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
user: Sieha1
Posts: 503
By Siren.Sieha 2015-01-16 11:30:32
Link | Quote | Reply
 
try putting one foot in front of the other in a rapid motion. adjust breathing depending on feelings in body and lungs. look out for that pole.
Offline
Posts: 720
By Nazrious 2015-01-17 10:09:17
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Siren.Sieha said: »
try putting one foot in front of the other in a rapid motion. adjust breathing depending on feelings in body and lungs. look out for that pole.

I'll admit I said "wut?" First then thought of title.

With %80 eva, Blink, and Parry theoretically Run should never be touched.

But gl getting evade and parry to their upper limits.

Which checks first evade or parry?
Also don't underestimate stoneskin and phalanx.
 Sylph.Jeanpaul
MSPaint Champion
Offline
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
user: JeanPaul
Posts: 2623
By Sylph.Jeanpaul 2015-01-17 10:25:05
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Evade > Parry > Shadows > Counter > Hit

I've been wishing there was some simple way to test Foil. Part of me suspects that it applies to everything Yaegesumi works on (since they share similar status descriptions, even in other languages). All of my observations feel anecdotal and not like solid evidence.
[+]
 Ragnarok.Martel
Offline
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2894
By Ragnarok.Martel 2015-01-17 10:38:29
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Sylph.Jeanpaul said: »
Evade > Parry > Shadows > Counter > Hit

I've been wishing there was some simple way to test Foil. Part of me suspects that it applies to everything Yaegesumi works on (since they share similar status descriptions, even in other languages). All of my observations feel anecdotal and not like solid evidence.
I have this vague recollection of evading things I thought were magical TP attacks on RUN. Certain Harpeia moves iirc. But anyway, if foil worked kinda like Yaegasumi, then that'd make sense.

And yes, Foil is a *** to test. lol. It's bad enough that it only applies to ws, but then it degrades over time... Insanely difficult to accurately test.
[+]
 Quetzalcoatl.Kenrusai
Offline
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
user: Starkzz
Posts: 1899
By Quetzalcoatl.Kenrusai 2015-01-17 11:59:02
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Sylph.Jeanpaul said: »
Intrinsically, you are playing the job right. It sounds like it may just be an issue of practice, particularly blink tanking. What difficulty are you doing these fights on?

AA Hume is probably the hardest thing for a RUN to tank due to his ability to mow down shadows without any effort. CDC is crit based, so it's possible you were unlucky. Try saving Battuta for those emergency moments, or at least towards the final stretch.

Ouryu does have hate reset, making it a little less than ideal for any dedicated tank. Fortunately, RUN does have strong hate building moves as well as some useful supporting moves. Anyway, your issues in that fight may have been your party's overall strategy rather than a weakness on your part. I haven't done Ouryu as RUN though, I've always gone THF, so I can't offer much insight here.

Foil apparently degrades over time (as said by the status description), so spamming it is technically better. There's not really any figures about potency however, but it can save you a hit or two, and generates good hate as well.

For practice, a number of merit BCs are manageable to solo on lower difficulties, even duo on Normal (my personal best is Ramuh solo on Normal). While part of it is becoming more familiar with your abilities, it's really more about becoming familiar with your enemies. Soloing WKRs provides insight for Delve bosses, but that's about it. For these high level fights, you'll only learn from trying more and more. Because these enemies are unique, you really can't practice on them any other way.

Other fights worth playing around with for insight on the job (whether solo or with limited support):
- Delve outside NMs
- Rani and other high-end Abyssea enemies
- Bloodthirsty Dweorg and other Salvage II bosses
- VT enemies in Inner Ra'Kaznar and the connecting Gates
- Adoulin mission BCs
- Surged Walk of Echoes (ok, bring people for this or you'll time out)
- Voidwatch NMs
- PW, AV, ADL

the top section of what you say atleast isn't facepalm worthy

but the bottom...

practice party play solo, and on some trash mobs? is this real life?

don't do this op, Jeanpaul thinks you're an idiot apparently
 Bahamut.Seekerstar
Offline
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 879
By Bahamut.Seekerstar 2015-01-17 12:09:05
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I'd rather use Ginsen for a TP set over Honed Tathlum, but that's just me.

Depending on your sub, you should be able to hit accurately enough anyway; rune fencers tend to be fairly accurate on higher-tier fights as long as you do as the paladins should- use sushi. Smacking things around is also a hate generator and one way we shine over the PLD- we hit harder.

Foil's over-time degradation is rarely an issue as generally you can keep it on full time, assuming full Inspiration merits and some form of haste. I do dislike its narrow application, though I have seen it mitigate things often enough that using it is definitely something you should do. It's also a fairly decent hate spike.

Swordplay is highly overlooked; it not only doesn't degrade over time, but in fact increases over time to a maximum cap.

As for anecdotal evidence, I am almost convinced that usage of One For All results in horrible death immediately afterward x.x

The thing that most people don't realize, or aren't willing to test, is that a rune fencer can tank almost anything a paladin can. The main difference is that while in some fights your PLD can virtually stand there and AFK it, the RUN must continually be doing something.

Your runes drop, and you will know it.
Vallation/Valiance falls? The next spell will teach you where you screwed up.
Don't have Battuta or Swordplay available? You need to turtle up.
Forget Phalanx? Well, paladins figure this one out too. :P

Rune Fencer also doesn't have the MP return of the Ochain Paladin, and thus relies on Ethereal Earring and Flume Belt. The problem with this is that parry negates that attack that would grant you MP, as do shadows from a /nin sub. This can result in MP issues in protracted fights; Devotion from your WHM can save your *** here. A RUN /needs/ her MP to keep hate. Remember, you're always doing something, and usually that something is casting Flash/Foil/Phalanx/Stoneskin. That adds up.

Dear SE, can I have an Ochain-like grip? Love, A Rune Fencer

Another way that RUN is different from PLD is that PLD can hold more mobs for a longer period of time. That is due to the fact that we rely on finite (and non-overlapping) JA to be at our most effective, while your PLD equips a shield and doesn't necessarily need to cycle through abilities to effectively mitigate damage. Their mitigation is gear based, while ours is much more JA-based. Of course, we can cap out PDT, and with an Epeolatry even get more PDT than any PLD, but PLD can do the same with MDT.

As controversial as it may be, I consider RUN to be more skill-intensive than PLD as a tank job.
 Sylph.Jeanpaul
MSPaint Champion
Offline
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
user: JeanPaul
Posts: 2623
By Sylph.Jeanpaul 2015-01-17 12:38:38
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Quetzalcoatl.Kenrusai said: »
the top section of what you say atleast isn't facepalm worthy

but the bottom...

practice party play solo, and on some trash mobs? is this real life?

don't do this op, Jeanpaul thinks you're an idiot apparently
I have no idea how much experience the OP has with the job. I'm just throwing out some ideas on things you can experiment with understanding the abilities. Barring hate control, party play is not too different from solo, in that the #1 thing you can do is understand your enemies.

The list I made is of enemies that, for the most part, people tend to not fight solo due to having powerful attacks or debilitating statuses, even with ilevel gear. Not sure why you'd think those are all trash mobs (well, some are). Granted that it's not the same as fighting merit BCs, but it does force you to think critically about your performance.

Bahamut.Seekerstar said: »
As controversial as it may be, I consider RUN to be more skill-intensive than PLD as a tank job.
I think most people would probably agree with you.
Offline
Posts: 720
By Nazrious 2015-01-17 16:43:09
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Bahamut.Seekerstar said: »
I'd rather use Ginsen for a TP set over Honed Tathlum, but that's just me.

Depending on your sub, you should be able to hit accurately enough anyway; rune fencers tend to be fairly accurate on higher-tier fights as long as you do as the paladins should- use sushi. Smacking things around is also a hate generator and one way we shine over the PLD- we hit harder.

Foil's over-time degradation is rarely an issue as generally you can keep it on full time, assuming full Inspiration merits and some form of haste. I do dislike its narrow application, though I have seen it mitigate things often enough that using it is definitely something you should do. It's also a fairly decent hate spike.

Swordplay is highly overlooked; it not only doesn't degrade over time, but in fact increases over time to a maximum cap.

As for anecdotal evidence, I am almost convinced that usage of One For All results in horrible death immediately afterward x.x

The thing that most people don't realize, or aren't willing to test, is that a rune fencer can tank almost anything a paladin can. The main difference is that while in some fights your PLD can virtually stand there and AFK it, the RUN must continually be doing something.

Your runes drop, and you will know it.
Vallation/Valiance falls? The next spell will teach you where you screwed up.
Don't have Battuta or Swordplay available? You need to turtle up.
Forget Phalanx? Well, paladins figure this one out too. :P

Rune Fencer also doesn't have the MP return of the Ochain Paladin, and thus relies on Ethereal Earring and Flume Belt. The problem with this is that parry negates that attack that would grant you MP, as do shadows from a /nin sub. This can result in MP issues in protracted fights; Devotion from your WHM can save your *** here. A RUN /needs/ her MP to keep hate. Remember, you're always doing something, and usually that something is casting Flash/Foil/Phalanx/Stoneskin. That adds up.

Dear SE, can I have an Ochain-like grip? Love, A Rune Fencer

Another way that RUN is different from PLD is that PLD can hold more mobs for a longer period of time. That is due to the fact that we rely on finite (and non-overlapping) JA to be at our most effective, while your PLD equips a shield and doesn't necessarily need to cycle through abilities to effectively mitigate damage. Their mitigation is gear based, while ours is much more JA-based. Of course, we can cap out PDT, and with an Epeolatry even get more PDT than any PLD, but PLD can do the same with MDT.

As controversial as it may be, I consider RUN to be more skill-intensive than PLD as a tank job.

I have a pretty well geard RUN, pretty much BIS on 80% of the sets and good pieces for non BIS.

What I have learned from playing RUN, level geo and don't look back.

About to start on Ergon, working on legend status etc and even though I didn't have geo unlocked, I decided Idris > Epol.
Why? To tank like an Aegis pld you need Epol. To tank like an Ochain Pld, you need Epol. To tank like an Aegis/Ochain pld you need Epol. Fair enough. However if the Mob spams various types of M Damage, you fall behind, if there are too many heavy hitters at once you fall behind. Granted its not a HUGE difference but it is there. For 500M+ and time/effort I dont want second best, thus RUN does not cut it.

If I didn't have an extra work job like Blu then maybe I'd think differently. But being different for difference sake is reserved for my main.
[+]
 Carbuncle.Kaelthas
Offline
Server: Carbuncle
Game: FFXI
Posts: 216
By Carbuncle.Kaelthas 2015-01-17 17:29:47
Link | Quote | Reply
 
I'd teach you how to RUN/DNC, but It's Tricky.
[+]
Offline
Posts: 931
By Chyula 2015-01-17 18:16:18
Link | Quote | Reply
 
you suppose to bring an Aegis with you, thats how you play RUN.
Offline
Posts: 720
By Nazrious 2015-01-18 00:26:36
Link | Quote | Reply
 
 Bahamut.Seekerstar
Offline
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 879
By Bahamut.Seekerstar 2015-01-18 09:23:52
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Nazrious said: »
Bahamut.Seekerstar said: »
I'd rather use Ginsen for a TP set over Honed Tathlum, but that's just me.

Depending on your sub, you should be able to hit accurately enough anyway; rune fencers tend to be fairly accurate on higher-tier fights as long as you do as the paladins should- use sushi. Smacking things around is also a hate generator and one way we shine over the PLD- we hit harder.

Foil's over-time degradation is rarely an issue as generally you can keep it on full time, assuming full Inspiration merits and some form of haste. I do dislike its narrow application, though I have seen it mitigate things often enough that using it is definitely something you should do. It's also a fairly decent hate spike.

Swordplay is highly overlooked; it not only doesn't degrade over time, but in fact increases over time to a maximum cap.

As for anecdotal evidence, I am almost convinced that usage of One For All results in horrible death immediately afterward x.x

The thing that most people don't realize, or aren't willing to test, is that a rune fencer can tank almost anything a paladin can. The main difference is that while in some fights your PLD can virtually stand there and AFK it, the RUN must continually be doing something.

Your runes drop, and you will know it.
Vallation/Valiance falls? The next spell will teach you where you screwed up.
Don't have Battuta or Swordplay available? You need to turtle up.
Forget Phalanx? Well, paladins figure this one out too. :P

Rune Fencer also doesn't have the MP return of the Ochain Paladin, and thus relies on Ethereal Earring and Flume Belt. The problem with this is that parry negates that attack that would grant you MP, as do shadows from a /nin sub. This can result in MP issues in protracted fights; Devotion from your WHM can save your *** here. A RUN /needs/ her MP to keep hate. Remember, you're always doing something, and usually that something is casting Flash/Foil/Phalanx/Stoneskin. That adds up.

Dear SE, can I have an Ochain-like grip? Love, A Rune Fencer

Another way that RUN is different from PLD is that PLD can hold more mobs for a longer period of time. That is due to the fact that we rely on finite (and non-overlapping) JA to be at our most effective, while your PLD equips a shield and doesn't necessarily need to cycle through abilities to effectively mitigate damage. Their mitigation is gear based, while ours is much more JA-based. Of course, we can cap out PDT, and with an Epeolatry even get more PDT than any PLD, but PLD can do the same with MDT.

As controversial as it may be, I consider RUN to be more skill-intensive than PLD as a tank job.

I have a pretty well geard RUN, pretty much BIS on 80% of the sets and good pieces for non BIS.

What I have learned from playing RUN, level geo and don't look back.

About to start on Ergon, working on legend status etc and even though I didn't have geo unlocked, I decided Idris > Epol.
Why? To tank like an Aegis pld you need Epol. To tank like an Ochain Pld, you need Epol. To tank like an Aegis/Ochain pld you need Epol. Fair enough. However if the Mob spams various types of M Damage, you fall behind, if there are too many heavy hitters at once you fall behind. Granted its not a HUGE difference but it is there. For 500M+ and time/effort I dont want second best, thus RUN does not cut it.

If I didn't have an extra work job like Blu then maybe I'd think differently. But being different for difference sake is reserved for my main.

To tank like an Aegis paladin you definitely do not need an Epeolatry.

You do, however, need the correct gear and a good working knowledge of how to best utilize your JA and spells from both main and subjob.

RUN and PLD do things differently.

PLD mitigates damage through shield block and PDT/MDT and damage soaking. They also get a decent parry and evasion rating.

RUN mitigates damage through parry, evasion, and damage soaking. RUN does NOT get (any decent) shields, though a RUN can get her PDT high enough to match a paladin's with minimal effort. RUN's innate MDB assists in less damage taken from spells, though an Aegis paladin easily beats even the best RUN's MDT because Aegis is broken (Not really, that's sort of a joke.)

Due to the abilities on gear from the two jobs, shield tanking may be more efficient in the terms of finite, time-based resources. Additionally, the armor category difference between the two jobs tends to grant the heavy-armor using PLD more straight defense, as well as more DT. Rune Fencer, who only gets light armor and what I term the "weird armor sets", gains more evasion/magic evasion than physical defense in most cases. This difference makes itself evident when the tank holds many high level mobs (such as in Incursion).

A common problem I have seen is that some RUN think that their af/relic reforges are all that they should be wearing. Paladins do the same, but their reforge is innately suited to many situations, while a RUN will need several gearsets to emulate the same functionality.

Comparing Idris to Epeolatry is somewhat misleading, though. RUN and GEO are two completely different party roles, and both have their place. I am a huge fan of GEO, myself. I will take GEO almost anywhere.

GEO isn't a tank job though. It is not comparable to one in any way.

Those who say "bring an Aegis with you, that's how you play RUN" are suffering from that old cookiecutter job syndrome, and have likely never SEEN a good RUN in action.

(I am in no way stating that my own personal RUN is the most badass thing ever- not me, I suck at everything equally!)

The key to being a good anything is practice. Do as Jeanpaul suggested and go find some reasonably high level stuff and practice your skills on it. If you find you have issues, re-evaluate your gear or JA usage and try again. Since most people aren't willing to even give a RUN-tank a fair shot, you may have to do this solo. If fear failure in front of people, solo is also the way to go.

Don't listen to people who tell you not to do it, if it's what you want to do. It's your game, your sub fees. There are people who will let you play whatever the hell you want to play, and the more who see you do it well, the more you'll get to do it.

(This message was brought to you by S.I.R.F.A. No, it really doesn't exist, but eff it, I'm a dork. xD)
 Lakshmi.Saevel
Offline
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2228
By Lakshmi.Saevel 2015-01-20 04:44:45
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Quote:
Those who say "bring an Aegis with you, that's how you play RUN" are suffering from that old cookiecutter job syndrome, and have likely never SEEN a good RUN in action.

Those people frequently overlook RUN's innate 22 MDB which happens to be the highest in the game along with it's subjob selection. Sub selection is critical to how a RUN tanks, /NIN shadow spamming is different then /BLU soaking, and yes Cocoon really is that awesome. I know a RUN who tanks HM on D and goes /BLU because he claims shadows are pretty much useless in that fight though he goes /NIN to the rest. Another thing that many RUN's forget is that they can get Protect VI from their support if they talk to them. Since MDT is piss easy to cap on RUN and RUN has such high MDB to begin with, I've found that an enhanced Protect V typically works better then an enhanced Shell V.

Anyhow there is very little I've found in the game that require the use of a PLD over a RUN. PLD is only an easier selection because we've had over ten years to build up a larger skilled PLD player base and a much smaller time to do the same for RUN. To make matters worse those who do have skill and gear on PLD have a weird kind of fear / prejudice against anyone wanting to tank on RUN.
[+]
Offline
Posts: 720
By Nazrious 2015-01-20 07:32:39
Link | Quote | Reply
 
Nope. RUN is a hell of a lot of work to approach an Aegis/Ochain Pld, not saying it can't get close but F me if it shouldn't be easier. Also a Pld is preferential to any event where Mag. Damage is going to be switching up on a frequent enough basis to screw over, well the core of RUN, Runes.

Not saying to turn down Epol RUN, just that I would not put the work into getting there since it is not what I consider to be my main.
[+]
First Page 2 3
Log in to post.