Judge: Wal-Mart Let A NY Church Challenge Sales

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Judge: Wal-Mart let a NY church challenge sales
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 Odin.Godofgods
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By Odin.Godofgods 2014-12-03 23:04:14
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Judge orders Wal-Mart to let a New York church challenge gun sales



Proposal to force tighter oversight of its sale of high-capacity guns and other potentially offensive products.

A federal judge ordered Wal-Mart Stores Inc WMT to let shareholders vote on a proposal to force tighter oversight of its sale of high-capacity guns and other potentially offensive products.

U.S. District Judge Leonard Stark in Wilmington, Delaware on Wednesday said the world’s largest retailer wrongly excluded such a proposal from Trinity Church, a historic Wall Street church, from its June 6 annual meeting.

Stark also granted Trinity an injunction preventing Wal-Mart from excluding the proposal from proxy materials for its 2015 annual meeting, saying a vote would serve the public interest.

The proposal would require the governance committee of Wal-Mart’s board to more closely examine the sale of products that might endanger public safety, hurt Wal-Mart’s reputation, or offend “family and community values” integral to the Bentonville, Arkansas-based company’s brand.

Trinity said these products might include guns with clips holding more than 10 rounds, a type it said “enabled” mass killings in Newtown, Connecticut and Aurora, Colorado; or music that depicts sex or violence. It said Wal-Mart already limits sales of such music.

The April 1 lawsuit was filed two weeks after the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission issued a “no action” letter signaling it would not punish Wal-Mart for excluding the proposal.

Stark said that while it was too late to do anything about the 2014 annual meeting, the SEC letter did not end the matter. He went on to reject Wal-Mart’s argument that Trinity’s proposal was too vague, potentially covering a broad swath of products.

“The proposal does not dictate any particular outcome or micro-manage Wal-Mart’s day-to-day business,” Stark wrote.

Wal-Mart spokesman Randy Hargrove said the retailer may appeal the decision.

“Trinity’s proposal would interfere with Walmart’s ordinary business operations by seeking to regulate Walmart’s daily decisions on the hundreds of thousands of products sold,” he said.

Hargrove added that in U.S. areas it sells firearms in the United States, Wal-Mart has “a long standing commitment to do so safely and responsibly,” under standards that “greatly exceed” what the law requires.

Trinity’s rector, the Rev. James Cooper, welcomed the decision.

“On critical issues such as the sale of products that may threaten the safety or well-being of communities, corporate boards must exercise their oversight role to assure balance among customer, shareholder, and societal interests,” he said.

The case is Trinity Wall Street v. Wal-Mart Stores Inc, U.S. District Court, District of Delaware, No. 14-00405.

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By mortontony1 2014-12-04 01:45:27
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TO be totally honest, the "other potentially offensive products" is what scares me the most. Laws and court rulings shouldn't be that vague or broad. Just look at the patriot act, that got all kind of jacked up because of loose wording.
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By Fenrir.Weakness 2014-12-04 08:00:16
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mortontony1 said: »
TO be totally honest, the "other potentially offensive products" is what scares me the most. Laws and court rulings shouldn't be that vague or broad. Just look at the patriot act, that got all kind of jacked up because of loose wording.

Any kind of restriction on what a company can or cannot sell (baring illegal stuff of course) is beyond stupid.
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 Siren.Sieha
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By Siren.Sieha 2014-12-12 11:39:37
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This going thru would suck. Walmart is one of the best places to get cheap ammo around here. They sell out almost instantly when a truck comes in.
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By Ramyrez 2014-12-12 12:00:43
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I've got to be honest, this article is really poorly worded. I'm not clear on what's going on; if the shareholders want to vote on something and have the shares to do so, who is stopping them? Why is an outside voice influencing what shareholders vote upon?

And why is a church playing into anything?

And if it's bad for Walmart's sales, and it's a shareholder vote, why does it matter if the shareholders can just saying, "Uh, *** off, church!"?

Not adding up for me.

Also, Walmart already regulates morality for some products, which is why you won't see lottery tickets in Walmart. Gambling is the devil.
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-12-12 12:02:20
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The radical right angst is palpable on this one. Support the church or support the corporation or support the 2nd amendment...
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By Cecilia Charl 2014-12-12 15:41:13
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Odin.Jassik said: »
The radical right angst is palpable on this one. Support the church or support the corporation or support the 2nd amendment...

A church shouldn't have a say in what a corporation does to be frank. They aren't the ones running the place, and honestly Walmart doesn't have to listen to them, why? The church isn't even indirectly affiliated with the company, and therefore don't have any jurisdiction.

My opinion? I'm for tighter regulations, some guns don't need to be sold in Walmart, such as patrol carbines that can carry large clips of ammunition.
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By Ramyrez 2014-12-12 18:34:48
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Kei Nagase said: »
A church shouldn't have a say in what a corporation does to be frank.
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By Altimaomega 2014-12-12 19:04:05
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Odin.Jassik said: »
The radical right angst is palpable on this one. Support the church or support the corporation or support the 2nd amendment...

At least they try and stand by some principles.

All the left does is.

Guns are bad, police will protect us.
The constitution is an outdated rag, hail Obama!
Down with corporations! Because we don't need jobs, will just live off the government.
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-12-12 20:35:25
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Ramyrez said: »
I've got to be honest, this article is really poorly worded. I'm not clear on what's going on; if the shareholders want to vote on something and have the shares to do so, who is stopping them? Why is an outside voice influencing what shareholders vote upon?

And why is a church playing into anything?

And if it's bad for Walmart's sales, and it's a shareholder vote, why does it matter if the shareholders can just saying, "Uh, *** off, church!"?

Not adding up for me.

Also, Walmart already regulates morality for some products, which is why you won't see lottery tickets in Walmart. Gambling is the devil.
It didn't make sense to me either until I skimmed the court decision. The church is a shareholder.
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-12-12 20:38:00
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Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Ramyrez said: »
I've got to be honest, this article is really poorly worded. I'm not clear on what's going on; if the shareholders want to vote on something and have the shares to do so, who is stopping them? Why is an outside voice influencing what shareholders vote upon?

And why is a church playing into anything?

And if it's bad for Walmart's sales, and it's a shareholder vote, why does it matter if the shareholders can just saying, "Uh, *** off, church!"?

Not adding up for me.

Also, Walmart already regulates morality for some products, which is why you won't see lottery tickets in Walmart. Gambling is the devil.
It didn't make sense to me either until I skimmed the court decision. The church is a shareholder.

A corrupt organization that doesn't pay it's employees a living wage and evades taxes is a shareholder in a corrupt corporation that doesn't pay it's employees a living wage and evades taxes... It's like hypocrisy inception.
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 Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-12-12 21:06:15
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It's so pretty though!



Can't really say that about walmart.
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By fonewear 2014-12-12 21:52:31
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Odin.Jassik said: »
Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
Ramyrez said: »
I've got to be honest, this article is really poorly worded. I'm not clear on what's going on; if the shareholders want to vote on something and have the shares to do so, who is stopping them? Why is an outside voice influencing what shareholders vote upon?

And why is a church playing into anything?

And if it's bad for Walmart's sales, and it's a shareholder vote, why does it matter if the shareholders can just saying, "Uh, *** off, church!"?

Not adding up for me.

Also, Walmart already regulates morality for some products, which is why you won't see lottery tickets in Walmart. Gambling is the devil.
It didn't make sense to me either until I skimmed the court decision. The church is a shareholder.

A corrupt organization that doesn't pay it's employees a living wage and evades taxes is a shareholder in a corrupt corporation that doesn't pay it's employees a living wage and evades taxes... It's like hypocrisy inception.

It's evil I tells ya pure evil ! Time to shop at some other evil corporation man !

While we are at it stop the war in Vietnam.
 Odin.Godofgods
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By Odin.Godofgods 2014-12-12 22:22:23
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Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
It's so pretty though!



Can't really say that about walmart.

Quote:
The love for god is shown in cash
The love they send is mailbox trash!
With every pamphlet we receive
more money Asked for godly needs,
they built a million dollar church
With money spent on gods research
 Odin.Godofgods
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By Odin.Godofgods 2014-12-12 22:25:26
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In fact its amazing how much this whole thread topic reminds me of that song.

YouTube Video Placeholder


Might not be the greatest melody they ever released, but considering they were teens and it was there first album released in 82, its still pretty good.
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By Enuyasha 2014-12-12 22:44:49
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Fenrir.Weakness said: »
mortontony1 said: »
TO be totally honest, the "other potentially offensive products" is what scares me the most. Laws and court rulings shouldn't be that vague or broad. Just look at the patriot act, that got all kind of jacked up because of loose wording.

Any kind of restriction on what a company can or cannot sell (baring illegal stuff of course) is beyond stupid.
Here the sale of ammunition along with guns has been made a parish(County) Ordinance. Because literally during a hurricane a walmart would become an armory because they leave their stock to claim insurance if it gets stolen or flooded out.

This, just because a religious organization sees something as "Potentially offensive" they would be forced to not sell it. Walmart carries condoms, condoms are sometimes "Offensive" to super religious folks, condoms are now not sold at walmart cause reasons.

That kind of precedent would be outrageously abused.
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-12-12 23:49:25
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The stockholders can still vote it down. All the court said was that Walmart unfairly removed the proposal from the meeting materials. The fact that it was a church that proposed it seems kind of irrelevant since any shareholder could have done the same thing.

Not sure why this was particularly newsworthy. /shrug
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 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-12-13 00:13:19
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Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
The stockholders can still vote it down. All the court said was that Walmart unfairly removed the proposal from the meeting materials. The fact that it was a church that proposed it seems kind of irrelevant since any shareholder could have done the same thing.

Not sure why this was particularly newsworthy. /shrug

I know this is weird coming from me, but... [+].
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 Bahamut.Malothar
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By Bahamut.Malothar 2014-12-13 01:30:25
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Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
The fact that it was a church that proposed it seems kind of irrelevant since any shareholder could have done the same thing.

I'm more curious how a tax exempt faction/entity is able to hold stock to begin with, for one of the largest, most profitable retail chains in the nation at that. I'm sure it's on the up and up, but it's still just a little unsettling that that's kosher.
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 Cerberus.Pleebo
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-12-13 01:47:52
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I think our resident tax expert jumped off a bridge, but I'm curious too.
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By Bahamut.Megrim 2014-12-13 05:29:59
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The only thing I took away from this story was that the Church was trying to Flex their political muscle against the iirc Largest Retail Chain in the world...?
 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-12-13 08:29:24
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Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
I think our resident tax expert jumped off a bridge, but I'm curious too.

Hmm, it's been, what, a month since he last posted? Weird. Anywho, people throw around phrases like "tax-exempt entity" when it comes to churches, but that makes it sound like everything they do is tax-exempt. I know they don't often pay property taxes and donations to them are tax-deductible, but I'm fairly certain that a church would be subject to the same taxes on gains from stock holdings as anyone else would be. I think that also applies to any other for-profit ventures they engage in, and any associated properties used for such purposes are taxed just like it would be for a normal business. Hopefully someone with experience can support/refute my statements, because my knowledge is limited.
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By Jetackuu 2014-12-13 08:37:34
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Honestly after thinking about the different angles: I don't care, I'd avoid walmart entirely if it weren't the only thing open 24/7 around here.

But as I'm about on a daytime and not nocturnal schedule again, it may be moot.

Hopefully they both burn.
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 Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2014-12-13 09:29:21
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
I think our resident tax expert jumped off a bridge, but I'm curious too.
Hmm, it's been, what, a month since he last posted? Weird. Anywho, people throw around phrases like "tax-exempt entity" when it comes to churches, but that makes it sound like everything they do is tax-exempt. I know they don't often pay property taxes and donations to them are tax-deductible, but I'm fairly certain that a church would be subject to the same taxes on gains from stock holdings as anyone else would be. I think that also applies to any other for-profit ventures they engage in, and any associated properties used for such purposes are taxed just like it would be for a normal business. Hopefully someone with experience can support/refute my statements, because my knowledge is limited.
Well... yes and no both.

One example: the old Yankee's Stadium. The Yankees donated the stadium to the Roman Catholic Church and leased it back for $1 / year on a 100 year lease. Not only did the team get a great tax write off, the land was no longer taxed.

Church property is not taxable. Not real estate nor improvements on the land.

I am fairly sure that other holdings like stocks, bonds, etc. are taxed as they would be for any other entity. But I don't know, this is only a fairly sure.
 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-12-13 09:40:33
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That's interesting about Yankee Stadium. I wonder if there's a loophole that led to that arrangement, because any information I've found says that the tax-free arrangement is only on property that is not used for profit. Here's a source that, although incomplete, seems pretty unbiased.

Tax Exemptions of Religious Property
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By Bloodrose 2014-12-13 10:12:46
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Normally the likes of pleebo and ravael are at each other's throats because "us vs. them" and "dat' Obama, yo" stuff.

Hell must have frozen over if they agree on this ***.

Of course, this all meant to be taken
super cereal
and not at all serious.
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 Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2014-12-13 10:17:39
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
That's interesting about Yankee Stadium. I wonder if there's a loophole that led to that arrangement, because any information I've found says that the tax-free arrangement is only on property that is not used for profit. Here's a source that, although incomplete, seems pretty unbiased.

Tax Exemptions of Religious Property
$1/year is hardly profitable. The lessee is allowed to profit, and one would hope pays taxes on that profit. But the holy mother the church wasn't profiting and payed no taxes on the land or the stadium.
 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2014-12-13 10:25:05
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Garuda.Chanti said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
That's interesting about Yankee Stadium. I wonder if there's a loophole that led to that arrangement, because any information I've found says that the tax-free arrangement is only on property that is not used for profit. Here's a source that, although incomplete, seems pretty unbiased.

Tax Exemptions of Religious Property
$1/year is hardly profitable. The lessee is allowed to profit, and one would hope pays taxes on that profit. But the holy mother the church wasn't profiting and payed no taxes on the land or the stadium.

Oh, I see what you're saying now. Exploiting tax loopholes such as that are a common practice in business, but it still seems rather shady and dishonest.
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By Bloodrose 2014-12-13 10:27:41
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Welcome to the world of big bucks
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 Odin.Godofgods
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By Odin.Godofgods 2014-12-13 11:34:14
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Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
The stockholders can still vote it down. All the court said was that Walmart unfairly removed the proposal from the meeting materials. The fact that it was a church that proposed it seems kind of irrelevant since any shareholder could have done the same thing.

Not sure why this was particularly newsworthy. /shrug

I think its because its likely only a tip of the iceberg type of situation. Setting precedence kinda. If a church here is able to start influencing what is allowed to be sold or what not based on there religion then its likely only a matter of time before others try the same thing. And then it spirals out of control like everything always seems to. - And there's already been a lot of 'religion dictating ppls lives' lately. Like that law this week about EMTs don't have to help ppl if there gay. So i could see why ppl are worried about the idea of a church doing this.

On a separate note: Since when is a church allowed to be a shareholder of anything? Arnt they supposed to be a private organization? I don't see how you can claim tax except status as a church and throw you hand into business as well. An individual maybe, but not the organization. I wont pretend to know all corporate law, but it seems wrong to me.
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