[dev1242] Job Adjustments

Even if you take away their skillchains, 4 hit fudo sam is pretty much unmatchable by any non mythic DD otherwise. It's wrong, but still.

When the game was first released, THF was the best DD in the game. That didnt change until a few level cap raises.

They WANT BST to become and edgame DD. The dev team has come out and explicitly said that they want the combined damage of master and pet to be greater than that of other jobs becuase of the risks/costs associated with keeping a pet out.

There are no utility jobs the same as there are no pure DD jobs.

SAM has skillchain/tp manipulation utilty...which is intended to be a group mechanic to support mages, but is just used for solo SC now (needs serious adjustment, imo)

WAR can use multiple weapon types, tanking abilities and has many enfeebling WS

DRK can solo very well and use dark/black magic to debuff and enfeeble the mob in vasiors way

DRG has agnon, and a wyvern that changes utility based on sub job (Also a VERY good solo job due to this)

This whole asinine arguement of "One handed DD need to be weak ....becuase utility...and solo/farm" needs to die in a fire. It's horse ***.

Every job can get at least TH2+ without sub and more with Ionis/Signet etc. No relevant money solo farm spots (Dynamis/Salvage) are any more in danger of klilling SAM than a THF. A SAM will also have higher skill speed coupled with not insignificant amounts of TH.

Where EXACTLY to 1 handers have this CRAZY HUGE solo advantage that warrants being laughable at every relevant end game event where damage matters and none of our "utility" does.? Exp? Nope. Merits? Nope. Job Points? Nope. Sparks? Nope.

Damn we so OP!!!!!!!

trusts do almost everything (all they can't really do is tank reliably) that a solo 1h can do, not seeing the whole "solo so OP" argument tbh

Firstly, when the game first started and no one understood how to make use of the jobs on offer, yes, THF was the strongest because it had the highest white damage and sneak attack. That was player understanding, not job powers.

Second you missed that part where they also said that BST wasn't supposed to be group friendly precisely because of the inherent risk and difficulty in keeping a pet out and healthy while fighting a lot of group content.

SAM is too strong right now, I did mention this in my own post and has been mentioned about a million times this week, but thanks for reminding us.

WARs only practical weapon types are GA and GS. Dual swords died at 75. Also the 'enfeebling WSs' that war gets..do you mean the 'break' WSs? Because if so, do some reading and find that they are all utter garbage and don't even land on anything above lv90. Yes you could say 'oh but WAR still has the utility, so my thf should be a top class DD' but the difference is that the 'utility' war offers outside of bravura, is more or less useless. Also that all of war's 'utility' besides bravura is dedicated to dealing more damage.

For angon see the last part of the WAR paragraph. DRG yes, can be a good solo job. Subbing mage drops a lot of it's damage and makes DRG similar to BLU in that sense. You do get a lot of utility from healing breath, but you'll also find DRG as a not top-tier DD in 99% of cases, unless they have ryuno.

Assanine? Not even sure what word that was meant to be.

BLU comes under the class of '1 handed DD' and is hardly weak, same to MNK. The difference between these and THF is that a BLU setup to DD and a MNK are both primary DD classes, with a little utility such as MNKs sustain and defensive abilities and BLU's massive list of options in spells.

It's not that 1h jobs need to be weak, its looking at what the jobs are MEANT to do. THF is meant to make money and to control hate. The current meta doesn't sit well with the idea of SATA combos, but in terms of making money, do you see many SAMs solo dynamis compared to THFs? No. Why? Because THF is much more efficient.

Also one final point, you're last statement that 1h jobs are laughable in end game is the laughable part. For anyone who actually plays and gears a job properly, you can be respectable in any content even on a job that wasn't designed for the role it's filling. Gods, one of the best pickup tojil's I've been in had a melee cor. If I know someone and I know they can pull their weight, I'll bring them, job irrelevant. Most people are like this. If you're having issues playing your chosen job in endgame, 7/10 this is you and 3/10 its dickish leaders.

I fail to see how any of this is going to shift party paradigms unless all of those weaponskills suddenly become Tachi: Fudo with an aftermath of Regain +50. the sheer speed that SAM can crap out weaponskill damage is not going to be touched by anyone without a Mythic, and even then, Level 3 aftermath needs to be maintained.

Thank you! Logic on ah.com, oh joy of joys.

It had nothing to do with people not understanding job power. At release, there was no combination of buffs, food or gear stats that would allow any job to do the kind of damage a THF could do at its full potential. And it was not white damage.


They did not say (recently in regards to adjustments moving forward) that BST wasn't *intended to be group friendly. The most recent overarching statement they've made on that subject is this:


The reason I suspect you dont see more jobs like SAM soloing dymamis is ppl telling them that some whack *** TH8 *** alt would net them more currency than a much higher kill speed th2~3 SAM wrecking machine. Which is probabably not the case more than people consider.

It's the same reason your hear ppl say THF is TH and not a DD. When clearly it was designed and intended to be a powerful DD in groups. The reason that is no longer true is because the game has evolved and THF has not. Your average THF has no idea how to dd with it. Your average player has no idea how trick attack works.

You can talk about intentions all day but they are fluid. The game is constantly changing. The jobs that don't change with it are the ones that get left behind. THF just happens to be a job that got left behind. This has more to do with RMT abuse and looming dev hatred, imo. I mean, they nerfed everything "Thief-like" we ever had straight into the ground. The only thing that remains is a weak-ish passive trait and faint memories of being DPS kings in exp parties.

All I'm going to say for TH, is that the THF main effect isn't strong enough, there are too few events that need it and too many other jobs that can get it. The higher levels beyond TH2 are too maringal of an increase and none of THF's other non-DD abilities or "utility" are good for anything.

Ie: TH is NOT a reason for THF to be a weak dps. And I'm not necessarily suggesting that it is or you are making that argument. But I see this arguement pop up a lot when it comes to conversations about THF DD adjustments and it's simply not valid.

In the game back then, short bursts of high damage were what people used to DD - ideal for a thf. SATA viper wrecked anything else in that faculty. If we took our knowledge now back then, would thf have been #1? Probably not. You had war's running around sword and board ffs.

For that post, yes that's the post. Now go and quote the vast amount of forum discussion with matsui and co.

In dynamis, THF and SAM both kill similarly fast, when you add in proc time its an even kill speed as 1 ws = dead. With this in mind, extra TH > no extra TH.

You're point in the next paragraph is the main one. 'Your average THF has no idea how to DD with it'. This is true of all stigmatised jobs. It's not that it cant be respectable, its the person behind it, and the amount of butthurt in your posts doesn't suggest good things about your personal ability either.

It would still be number 1 in that era for several reasons. There weren't large amounts of haste or support jobs available. Accuracy was an issue. TP phase was much slower and lined up with sata timers much better. And no other WS could even come close to a stacked WS. Good THF's were precharging during pulls and double dipping SATA also.

The game was slower then. Mobs changed postion less. Now we have super buffed melee with capped Acc, ATT and delay reduction spamming WS that are on par with Stacked WS. All the while Mr THF is waiting on the same SA/TA cooldowns he had back then, trying to dance around a mob that is spinning like a top so he can land a respectable WS with the same positional requirements imposed upon him back then.

My "Butthurt" (lol) comes from 10 years of seeing THF start where it did, get stripped of all its Thief abilities due to RMT abuse, and slowly get phased out of the "DD Job" conversation because that aspect of THF never evolved with the game.

I dont see nothing new about smn except for 3 BP;
first
Titan

Megalith Throw lv 35
Delivers a ranged attack that slows target.

Now new BP is

Blood Pact: Rage: Crag Throw (Lv.99)
Delivers a ranged attack that slows target.

for me this look exactly same, we are getting a BP recycled, they could just revamp what we have and add something new

Ramuh

Chaotic Strike lv 70 BP
Delivers a threefold attack that stuns target.

New BP is

Blood Pact: Rage: Volt Strike (Lv.99)
Delivers a threefold attack that stuns target.

descrption look just same, nothing new maybe just animation

ifrit

Blood Pact: Rage: Conflagration Strike (Lv.99)
Deals fire elemental damage. Additional effect: Burn.
this BP is very similar on description to Burning strike, the diference is aditional effect burn, if dot is 3 mins will be cool with 10 hp tick minimum,

nice to have new BPs but not nice to see how SE is recycling old BP and trying sell them like new

I would have to say that if we took gearing standards now back then, MNK would have beaten THF through simple DPS. The part about slower TP phase and positioning was part of what I said about the meta being short bursts of damage, whereas we now know that DoT (WS and white) is superior.

As for THF then and now, you have to see the argument that THF wasn't designed as the #1 DD, and it settled into place. Its not the strength of other jobs that relegates THF either, its the personal loot pool system and drop systems that are unaffected by TH.

On that note, I'm a fan of the idea that SAM was designed as a hybrid DD/tank, and NIN more as a DD, but players took them other routes.

You would be wrong. Gear stats now were not available back then. Neither were large amounts of haste/att/acc or support. TP burn only became a thing because evolutions of the game made them more efficient. Btw, this was not "intended" and the dev team was shocked for a long time that no one was using SC inentenionally outside of a few fights.

I think it speaks more to their competence than their intentions, to be honest. A very recent response regarding this very 1 hand ws damage issues was a quick back pedal when they said something like "In our previous response that 1 hand ws damage is fine we assumed that a player might be low level or playing solo. We did not consider support buffs or the delay reduction cap (aparently trusts aren't a thing either?). When you consider all these things, adjustment is necessary."

I really think they have no idea how OP SAM is right now and they don't test job balance based on end game grouping conditions.

Ah, but MNK DID have access to delay reduction, and was alone in that regard.

SAM has always been SE's baby, people need to get used to that and play around it, experience shows it wont change.

Link to that post please?

1st post

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/112776-Dev-Tracker-Findings-Posts-%28NO-DISCUSSION%29?p=6248058&viewfull=1#post6248058


Reconsider

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/112776-Dev-Tracker-Findings-Posts-%28NO-DISCUSSION%29?p=6252224&viewfull=1#post6252224


They also single out TH and Blue Magic as considerations. It was very suprising to me that they would respond to questions like this based around low level, buffless, solo play.

Ah that. Isn't that basically what they did in this patch though? 'raising the power of the high level weapon skills of these weapons'

That isn't going to make 1h jobs anywhere near 2h for DD, unless stuff like rudras is bumped to 150% DEX mod and a 8.0+ http://ftp.

I also have my doubts. It really depends on what the increases are. I'm excited either way. Both a potency and FTP boost to Rudra's? That's going to produce some pretty shots at least.

I'm certainly not going to say no to any DPS boosts, but I can't help but feel like it does nothing for the timer and positional bottlneck restricting THF dps at the moment...unless unstacked high level dagger WS magically become competetive after this update (doubtful).

I feel that the smn changes / add are too little (again)... The issue is that if we want to compete we need to be able use BP:rage for dmg way more often than every 38ish seconds. Or it needs to deal ridiculous dmg on top content if we want to be brought as DDs...

That or we get brought as buffers through the new TP bonus ward + favors that should be more noticible / potent.

Wonder how TP bonus will play out with ifrit's favor and Ifrit's new Rage... but I am quite skeptical.

We have no clue how good the new BP Rages are yet, so there's no way to judge if the changes are enough.

I'm not really sure if SMN is supposed to "compete" with DDs. We're a hybrid support/damage dealer.

Beyond that, the new buffs look great (TP Bonus, Hastega II). It's not like we're supposed to be beating DDs in damage, but we might be able to do a fair amount of damage on top of great support with the new changes.

I'm fine if we arent supposed to compete with DDs... but that means we should be interchangeable with BRDs, CORs and GEOs, I mean in the eye of the community. I am hoping that Hastega2 and TP Bonus and the favors we brings can accomplish that.

I too am pretty pleased with the new buffs, the do give us a pretty competative edge with other support roles, situationally speaking of course.

The one real thing that holds us back in my opinion is the fact that our important buffs are given by different avatars and that Avatar's favor needs time to charge every time we resummon.
I don't know about you, but I certainly don't feel overpowered if they would just take the whole charging part out and let it have the potency decided by the amount of skill/gear enhancements.

Treasure Hunter is NOT a unique ability, every job in the game has access to Treasure Hunter now.

THF is already becoming quite competitive on boss fights if played properly, in things like High Tier Avatar Fights(or any High Tier fight that can use melee DD), lolUnity NM's, SoA basement NM's, and Incursion bosses(assuming quick erases on Bind), a good THF can keep up very well(or top the parse depending on the other DD's).

This update could very well be the edge THF needs to jump to new heights.

Actually stoked for an update for the first time in a while. Still a little annoyed at THF HP, it's biggest crutch. And still being 119. But yeah, Good ***for the single-handers. My body is ready for 50k Rudra's.

Well, I doubt the Rudra's Storm buff will give us THAT much damage, but it will probably be enough to be considered "splooge-worthy". :P

Just tossing that out there but how crazy would it be if WARDS BP would not have a recast timer at all. So we could be a bit more reactive with them?

Overpowered for sure.

Out of my mind, its like a fulltiming chainspell AoE stun with ramuh.

Isn't that the point of your new 2hr? :/

Chances are, the only reason the other Celestials got BPs is cause Garuda would have 1 more than the other 5... Which is ugly.
So making V2s for a bunch of them is a quick fix.
Though Lord knows why Titan gets a third throw instead of a better Earthen Ward... Maybe next time then will bring adjustments to that and Noctoshield...
As for Carbuncle...
Trolling.
No new Cait Sith BPs... But Carbuncle gets a 10th BP? And a worthless one at that?
Clear trolling.

Buuuuuuuuut.... At least that means next time Cait Sith should get the rest of Her's....
Maybe the next SMN adjustment will be "past the 75era" themed.

You guys got it all wrong, these new bp are preparing for the eventual release of Logwatch2.0 triggers.