St. Louis Vs. The Police: Part III Apocalypse Nigh
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St. Louis Vs. The Police: Part III Apocalypse Nigh
St. Louis Vs. The Police: Part III Apocalypse Nigh
You're not getting any usable fingerprints off of a fire arm. CSI, NYPDBlue, Law and Order, all of those shows are a joke. Obtaining latent prints is nearly impossible unless the surface is smooth, dry, doesn't absorb oils, and doesn't come into contact with anything else that may disturb the print. You might get a partial at the very best, and only up until the gun is fired, after that nope.
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Voren said: »
You're not getting any usable fingerprints off of a fire arm. CSI, NYPDBlue, Law and Order, all of those shows are a joke. Obtaining latent prints is nearly impossible unless the surface is smooth, dry, doesn't absorb oils, and doesn't come into contact with anything else that may disturb the print. You might get a partial at the very best, and only up until the gun is fired, after that nope.
Everyone knows that racist fingerprints are easier to pull off a firearm.
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Voren said: »
Ragnarok.Raenil said: »
There have been just as many witnesses stating otherwise. There was no evidence other than bullet casings, Wilson's slightly reddened face, the car and Browns corpse! Camera's were conveniently out of batteries so crime scene photos weren't taken. Wilson's gun wasn't even taken!
There's no proof of anything other than one guy was punched and the other was shot dead! None!
According to 'eyewitnesses' shots were fired, before Brown "approached" him, when Wilson decided to chase him. Not to mention at that distance Wilson had more than enough time to go for his taser, which he stated he did in fact have on him. He had mace with him as well.
He lied during his testimony which nullified it as viable evidence in my eyes. If you want to take a liars word at face value well, go for it.
EDIT: Feels like I'm just seeing FOX trash being regurgitated in here.
There's no proof of anything other than one guy was punched and the other was shot dead! None!
According to 'eyewitnesses' shots were fired, before Brown "approached" him, when Wilson decided to chase him. Not to mention at that distance Wilson had more than enough time to go for his taser, which he stated he did in fact have on him. He had mace with him as well.
He lied during his testimony which nullified it as viable evidence in my eyes. If you want to take a liars word at face value well, go for it.
EDIT: Feels like I'm just seeing FOX trash being regurgitated in here.
If someone goes for my gun once I'm justified to use lethal force. Courts have upheld that if an individual attempts to get a gun away from an officer once they will try again. There's your justification.
Mace isn't used by every department because it has a Murphy's Law effect.
Taser is no longer applicable because Brown posed a great enough threat to justify lethal force.
Eyewitnesses are unreliable at best. You give me ten people and I'll have fifteen different statements of the events. I quit trusting witnesses years ago. If you're not involved in the incident STFU and GTFO.
And Wilson claims he went for his gun. Apparently all we can do it take Wilson at his unreliable word since printing guns is near impossible according to you.
@Jet: 10+ hits and orbit socket damage was the original claim before he gave his testimony to the grand jury and his medical images were released.
Like I said, there is nothing disputing that claim.
Again: there's nothing that's refuting his word, except your bias.
Again: there's nothing that's refuting his word, except your bias.
There is nothing supporting his word either. And science dictates you have to prove, not disprove.
My bias is justified.
My bias is justified.
Ragnarok.Raenil said: »
There is nothing supporting his word either. And science dictates you have to prove, not disprove.
My bias is justified.
My bias is justified.
Yeah, but the law states innocent until proven guilty. In other words, the burden of proof is on the accuser, not the defender.
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Ragnarok.Raenil said: »
There is nothing supporting his word either. And science dictates you have to prove, not disprove.
My bias is justified.
My bias is justified.
You're confused as to how it works, he doesn't have to prove that he's not guilty of murder, others have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he's guilty of murder. His testimony is all that we can rely on as that's all there is, unless you can actually disprove it with facts.
Your bias isn't justified and is outright ridiculous, you just keep making wild claims like "he lied."
At the end of the day the subject is dead and the officer is alive and well, while I'll be willing to discuss the need for an officer to carry a firearm in the first place, it's rather moot in regards to the events that unfolded.
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Ragnarok.Raenil said: »
There is nothing supporting his word either. And science dictates you have to prove, not disprove.
My bias is justified.
My bias is justified.
Yeah, but the law states innocent until proven guilty.
If only Ferguson PD had done it's job and, y'know, taken pictures of the scene and collected evidence. And done a proper investigation. And had a trial.
How the *** is "he lied" a wild claim when he originally claimed 10+ punches when he was factually only punched once? That is a lie. It is a blatant lie in an attempt to garner sympathy and demonize Brown.
Ragnarok.Raenil said: »
Also, dude didn't file an incident report until a fairly significant amount of time has passed after the event, which is a Class A Misdemeanor in Missouri. Penalty for Class A Misdemeanors – up to one year in jail or a fine up to $1,000, or both.
Ragnarok.Raenil said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Ragnarok.Raenil said: »
There is nothing supporting his word either. And science dictates you have to prove, not disprove.
My bias is justified.
My bias is justified.
Yeah, but the law states innocent until proven guilty.
If only Ferguson PD had done it's job and, y'know, taken pictures of the scene and collected evidence. And done a proper investigation. And had a trial.
No, he shouldn't. But at least one of those two is backed up by statements, even as shaky as those are.
Ragnarok.Raenil said: »
How the *** is "he lied" a wild claim when he originally claimed 10+ punches when he was factually only punched once? That is a lie. It is a blatant lie in an attempt to garner sympathy and demonize Brown.
Have you even read the report?
Statements from people not actually involved in the incident. No one else was at the car.
Also this is bull, as his testimony is on file as of the next day.Testimony isn't an incident report, apparently. He had his own personal paperwork he was supposed to do but wasn't completed until nearly a month after the incident.
Jetackuu said: »
Ragnarok.Raenil said: »
Also, dude didn't file an incident report until a fairly significant amount of time has passed after the event, which is a Class A Misdemeanor in Missouri. Penalty for Class A Misdemeanors – up to one year in jail or a fine up to $1,000, or both.
He's been on paid leave since August, he shouldn't have been doing any paperwork since that started.
Ragnarok.Raenil said: »
Statements from people not actually involved in the incident. No one else was at the car.
Good thing they weren't at the "car" when that part happened that I was discussing.
Voren said: »
You're not getting any usable fingerprints off of a fire arm. CSI, NYPDBlue, Law and Order, all of those shows are a joke. Obtaining latent prints is nearly impossible unless the surface is smooth, dry, doesn't absorb oils, and doesn't come into contact with anything else that may disturb the print. You might get a partial at the very best, and only up until the gun is fired, after that nope.
With that description I don't see why rounds loaded into a magazine wouldn't have prints on them. But that's beside the point in this case.
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Yeah, but the law states innocent until proven guilty. In other words, the burden of proof is on the accuser, not the defender.
Except the person who was supposed to have their day in court is dead.
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Voren said: »
You're not getting any usable fingerprints off of a fire arm. CSI, NYPDBlue, Law and Order, all of those shows are a joke. Obtaining latent prints is nearly impossible unless the surface is smooth, dry, doesn't absorb oils, and doesn't come into contact with anything else that may disturb the print. You might get a partial at the very best, and only up until the gun is fired, after that nope.
However, Wilson stated “I was not in control of the gun,”.
Quote:
I drew my firearm, I pointed at him… “stop I’m going to shoot you” is what I ordered him to get on the ground. He said, “You’re too much of a ***’ pussy to shoot me” and grabbed my gun. When he grabbed my gun, he twisted it, pointed at me and into my hip, pelvic area. I know his hand was on my trigger finger, which was inside the trigger guard. And when he grabbed it he pushed it down and angled it to where it was like this is my hip. My firearm was in his control and pointed directly into my hip. At that point I was guaranteed he was going to shoot me. That’s what I thought his goal was.
He had already manipulated [so that] I was not in control of the gun. I was able to tilt myself a little bit and push it down and away towards the side of my hip … He had me completely overpowered while I was sitting in the car. Then I took my left arm and I pinned it against my back seat and pushed the gun forward … it ended up being right about where the door handle is on the Tahoe …
When it got there it was somewhat lined up with his silhouette and I pulled the trigger. Nothing happened. Pulled it again, nothing happened. I believe his fingers were over in between from the hammer and the slide preventing it from firing. I tried again. It fired. Glass shot up. The first thing I remember seeing is glass flying and blood all over my right hand on the back side of my hand. He looked like he was shocked initially, but he paused for a second and then came back into my vehicle and attempted to hit me multiple times.
He had already manipulated [so that] I was not in control of the gun. I was able to tilt myself a little bit and push it down and away towards the side of my hip … He had me completely overpowered while I was sitting in the car. Then I took my left arm and I pinned it against my back seat and pushed the gun forward … it ended up being right about where the door handle is on the Tahoe …
When it got there it was somewhat lined up with his silhouette and I pulled the trigger. Nothing happened. Pulled it again, nothing happened. I believe his fingers were over in between from the hammer and the slide preventing it from firing. I tried again. It fired. Glass shot up. The first thing I remember seeing is glass flying and blood all over my right hand on the back side of my hand. He looked like he was shocked initially, but he paused for a second and then came back into my vehicle and attempted to hit me multiple times.
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Maybe they shouldn't have picked a fight with an armed man.
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Jetackuu said: »
Maybe they shouldn't have picked a fight with an armed man.
What says he picked the fight besides the other person who could have instigated the altercation?
Odin.Jassik said: »
Jetackuu said: »
Maybe they shouldn't have picked a fight with an armed man.
What says he picked the fight besides the other person who could have instigated the altercation?
Doesn't matter, "eye witnesses" back him up or something.
Also Brown was a thug and thus stupid enough to attack an armed man for no apparent reason.
Also Brown was a thug and thus stupid enough to attack an armed man for no apparent reason.
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The fact that it's nearly impossible to fight a guy standing outside a vehicle, especially when they're a good bit bigger than you.
but hey, keep going with the racist cop theory, suits the agenda, eh?
but hey, keep going with the racist cop theory, suits the agenda, eh?
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If i was a racist cop, I would have picked a fight with the smaller black guy. No way would I try to grab a 6'5" nearly 300lb man through a window when my limb mobility is limited in my seat, not to mention the extreme leverage disadvantage. In the many cases of actual police brutality I've seen videos of, I don't think I've EVER seen a police officer physically try to attack somebody while seated in their vehicle. That's pretty lazy...especially considering the size of the would be victim if it had been the case here. They've always been out of the vehicle and full steam ahead.
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Odin.Jassik said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
I'm tired of providing justification as to why if someone hits you and reaches for your gun, it's ok to stop them by shooting them.
Can someone please justify for me why it's ok to reach for a cop's gun inside his car and not expect to be shot?
on another note, I really feel dirty when I share the same side of the room as jet. Can someone recommend a method to remedy the dirtiness?
Can someone please justify for me why it's ok to reach for a cop's gun inside his car and not expect to be shot?
on another note, I really feel dirty when I share the same side of the room as jet. Can someone recommend a method to remedy the dirtiness?
Since the gun was never fingerprinted and only the officer's testimony states that he was reaching for the weapon, the issue isn't whether he would be justified if Brown reached for his gun, but whether he actually did. Similar holes of doubt fit into virtually every aspect. Several people stated that Wilson continued to fire as Brown was fleeing. If that's the be believed, if he'd landed any of those shots, there would likely be a different outcome. I would even go as far as to say that is likely that Brown did reach for his gun, if only in as much as to prevent the officer from aiming it at him, but likely to disarm him. BUT, there is no solid evidence to say anything other than he was shot in the thumb at close range.
The point is that people are taking the officer's testimony as gospel, even though it's been inconsistent, and won't concede there is room for doubt. I believe there was sufficient evidence to indict him, let him have his day in court. I've looked at as much of the released evidence as I can stomach (a couple hundred pages so far) and the only thing I can say conclusively is that Wilson did a very poor job of de-escalating the situation and at least twice put himself and Brown in a more dangerous situation.
I don't know if his actions are in line with their policies or if those policies are good, but whatever the case, something beyond Brown being a hoodlum caused his death.
Voren said: »
Jetackuu said: »
I'll ask again: how does one "start ***" when they're sitting in a vehicle?
It's easy, roll down window, open mouth, make a statement, wait.
I don't think enough emphasis is put on what provocation is typical in these kinds of situations. I've had officers approach me in very disrespectful manners that could easily provoke a response from someone with a hotter temperament. Are they trained to try and spark aggression in people as an investigative tactic?
And none of that means anything in the USA. In the USA the prosecution is required to prove all components of a charge beyond a reasonable doubt. The defense is absolutely not required to prove anything, only to demonstrate that there is a reasonable doubt. This standard has been upheld by several federal courts and resulted in multiple overturned convictions, some of the most recent were rape convictions due to the assumption of the guilt of the defendant (requiring that the defendant prove consent rather then requiring the prosecution prove lack of consent).
And in any case this was not a trial but a grand jury pretrial indictment. This is where they put their evidence before a grand jury with the goal of determining if the prosecution has enough evidence to even attempt to go forward with a trial. There is no reasonable doubt standard being applied. It's piss easy to convince a grand jury to press charges even on flimsy evidence. The fact (and it's now fact) that they couldn't even get this means the prosecutions evidence was so weak and the defense's evidence so strong that there wasn't even the need for a full trial.
Anyone still pushing for *punishment* on Officer Wilson has long since passed the realm of objective reason and is just spewing pure bigotry.
And this from someone who absolutely hates the current state of corrupt police in the USA, so you guys know I sure as hell don't have any vested interests nor prejudice towards seeing him exonerated.
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Shiva.Eboneezer said: »
If i was a racist cop, I would have picked a fight with the smaller black guy. No way would I try to grab a 6'5" nearly 300lb man through a window when my limb mobility is limited in my seat, not to mention the extreme leverage disadvantage. In the many cases of actual police brutality I've seen videos of, I don't think I've EVER seen a police officer physically try to attack somebody while seated in their vehicle. That's pretty lazy...especially considering the size of the would be victim if it had been the case here. They've always been out of the vehicle and full steam ahead.
Get it now?
This whole situation is black people standing up and shouting "We should be able to act like thugs, rob stores, and punch cops, and not face any judgement from it because our ancestors are slaves and we're still victims of it cause white privilege." White people who are suckers enough to buy into the fact that they're still oppressors are standing there with them
Grow up!
Shiva.Eboneezer said: »
If i was a racist cop, I would have picked a fight with the smaller black guy. No way would I try to grab a 6'5" nearly 300lb man through a window when my limb mobility is limited in my seat, not to mention the extreme leverage disadvantage. In the many cases of actual police brutality I've seen videos of, I don't think I've EVER seen a police officer physically try to attack somebody while seated in their vehicle. That's pretty lazy...especially considering the size of the would be victim if it had been the case here. They've always been out of the vehicle and full steam ahead.
Trick question all cops that are white are racist !
Quote:
Two FBI agents were shot and wounded at a house in north St. Louis County early on Wednesday and the suspect was dead in an incident not related to the racially charged unrest around nearby Ferguson, officials said.
The agents, one of whom was shot in the shoulder and the other who was shot in the leg, were helping local police try to arrest 33-year-old Major Washington, a suspect in a shooting on Monday night in which Washington's mother was killed and a police officer was shot in the chest, the University City Police Department said.
Police received information on Tuesday that he was armed and barricaded inside a house in St. Louis County.
The two FBI agents were shot at the scene early on Wednesday, and the suspect "is deceased," the University City police statement said, with giving details on how he died.
The incident unfolded during a second night of arson and looting in the St. Louis suburb of Ferguson after a grand jury declined to indict a white policeman in the fatal shooting of an unarmed black teenager.
FBI spokeswoman Rebecca Wu said the agents' injuries were not life threatening and added: "The incident is not directly related to the Ferguson protests."
The agents, one of whom was shot in the shoulder and the other who was shot in the leg, were helping local police try to arrest 33-year-old Major Washington, a suspect in a shooting on Monday night in which Washington's mother was killed and a police officer was shot in the chest, the University City Police Department said.
Police received information on Tuesday that he was armed and barricaded inside a house in St. Louis County.
The two FBI agents were shot at the scene early on Wednesday, and the suspect "is deceased," the University City police statement said, with giving details on how he died.
The incident unfolded during a second night of arson and looting in the St. Louis suburb of Ferguson after a grand jury declined to indict a white policeman in the fatal shooting of an unarmed black teenager.
FBI spokeswoman Rebecca Wu said the agents' injuries were not life threatening and added: "The incident is not directly related to the Ferguson protests."
Quote:
US protesters forced a crowded St Louis mall to close for around two hours on Friday, demanding a boycott to post-Thanksgiving shopping and justice for an unarmed black teenager killed by police.
Scores of demonstrators, including young children, shouted "No justice, no peace," and "Stop shopping and join the movement" at the St Louis Galleria Mall.
Around 100 people lay on the floor for four and a half minutes to symbolize the more than four hours that 18-year-old Michael Brown lay in the road after being shot dead by a white police officer in the St Louis suburb of Ferguson.
In New York, police made "several" arrests at a protest in front of Macy's flagship store in Herald Square, a spokesman said, without explaining why the demonstrators had been detained.
About 200 people gathered in support of the boycott of "Black Friday", which comes the day after America's Thanksgiving holiday and sees stores offering steep discounts, leading to often-frenzied consumer spending.
In the San Francisco Bay area, protestors severely disrupted the BART mass transit system for more than two hours by blocking off a train station in Oakland, officials said.
The protestors chained themselves together at the West Oakland station, forcing trains to be stopped into and out of San Francisco, briefly stranding crowds including many heading to malls seeking Black Friday bargains.
The protests came four days after a Missouri grand jury decided not to indict the officer who killed Brown, sparking arson and looting in Ferguson.
At the St Louis mall, shoppers and store staff looked bemused, while others filmed or photographed the protest, or else clapped and shouted their support.
When police officers told AFP they were clearing the building, the protesters had already left.
The management office confirmed that the shopping center reopened at 3:15 pm, around two hours after stores were told police were closing the building.
Although most shops reopened, others kept their doors locked and shutters down even after the mall was back in business.
It was not immediately clear how much business had been lost.
Shop staff said police had ordered the closure for public safety.
"It ain't my decision," said Luke, a shoe store manager who didn't want to give his last name.
"The police thought it was in the best interest of our customers and our product to close down," he added.
Protesters claimed success.
"It is now a movement and it is spreading across the country and around the world. Black Friday is the next step," said journalist and activist Kymone Freeman from Washington.
"Hopefully we'll see more of this. I think Black Friday protests will continue throughout the Christmas season," he added.
Scores of demonstrators, including young children, shouted "No justice, no peace," and "Stop shopping and join the movement" at the St Louis Galleria Mall.
Around 100 people lay on the floor for four and a half minutes to symbolize the more than four hours that 18-year-old Michael Brown lay in the road after being shot dead by a white police officer in the St Louis suburb of Ferguson.
In New York, police made "several" arrests at a protest in front of Macy's flagship store in Herald Square, a spokesman said, without explaining why the demonstrators had been detained.
About 200 people gathered in support of the boycott of "Black Friday", which comes the day after America's Thanksgiving holiday and sees stores offering steep discounts, leading to often-frenzied consumer spending.
In the San Francisco Bay area, protestors severely disrupted the BART mass transit system for more than two hours by blocking off a train station in Oakland, officials said.
The protestors chained themselves together at the West Oakland station, forcing trains to be stopped into and out of San Francisco, briefly stranding crowds including many heading to malls seeking Black Friday bargains.
The protests came four days after a Missouri grand jury decided not to indict the officer who killed Brown, sparking arson and looting in Ferguson.
At the St Louis mall, shoppers and store staff looked bemused, while others filmed or photographed the protest, or else clapped and shouted their support.
When police officers told AFP they were clearing the building, the protesters had already left.
The management office confirmed that the shopping center reopened at 3:15 pm, around two hours after stores were told police were closing the building.
Although most shops reopened, others kept their doors locked and shutters down even after the mall was back in business.
It was not immediately clear how much business had been lost.
Shop staff said police had ordered the closure for public safety.
"It ain't my decision," said Luke, a shoe store manager who didn't want to give his last name.
"The police thought it was in the best interest of our customers and our product to close down," he added.
Protesters claimed success.
"It is now a movement and it is spreading across the country and around the world. Black Friday is the next step," said journalist and activist Kymone Freeman from Washington.
"Hopefully we'll see more of this. I think Black Friday protests will continue throughout the Christmas season," he added.
Quote:
Activists gathered in Ferguson, Missouri, on Saturday to begin a 120-mile march to the state capital Jefferson City to protest the killing of an unarmed black teen by a white police officer, a case that has rekindled a national debate over U.S. race relations.
About 100 people were expected to take part in the seven-day march organized by the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP), with more joining segments of the long walk, NAACP staff member Jamiah Adams told Reuters.
The march, which is reminiscent of the civil rights marches of the 1960's, was set to begin at midday on Saturday at the Canfield Green Apartments, the residential complex near where 18-year-old Michael Brown was shot and killed on Aug. 9 by Ferguson police Officer Darren Wilson.
A grand jury's decision on Monday not to charge Wilson ignited protests in Ferguson and a riot that left buildings torched and stores looted.
Demonstrations spread to major cities across the United States, resulting in hundreds of arrests during the week.
Protests in Ferguson had dwindled in size and intensity in the days after the grand jury decision, then gained renewed energy on Friday as demonstrators temporarily shut down a St. Louis-area mall and turned up in force at other shopping areas across the country.
In Ferguson, there were at least 16 arrests overnight, police said, and dozens of others in other cities.
The NAACP expects about 1,000 people to be part of the final leg of the "Journey for Justice" march, said Adams, who will participate in the march along with other NAACP staff members and the organization's president, Cornell William Brooks.
"We are resolute and excited to get started and moving forward in something that's positive, a nonviolent demonstration toward criminal justice reform and police reform," Adams said.
The civil rights group is asking participants to protect themselves against icy conditions expected along the route by wearing hand warmers and wool socks.
The NAACP is also calling for a new police chief in Ferguson and a national law to prevent racial profiling by police.
Marchers will be able to shuttle back and forth between the walk and their residences in the St. Louis area, by taking a bus back to a staging area, Adams said.
About 100 people were expected to take part in the seven-day march organized by the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP), with more joining segments of the long walk, NAACP staff member Jamiah Adams told Reuters.
The march, which is reminiscent of the civil rights marches of the 1960's, was set to begin at midday on Saturday at the Canfield Green Apartments, the residential complex near where 18-year-old Michael Brown was shot and killed on Aug. 9 by Ferguson police Officer Darren Wilson.
A grand jury's decision on Monday not to charge Wilson ignited protests in Ferguson and a riot that left buildings torched and stores looted.
Demonstrations spread to major cities across the United States, resulting in hundreds of arrests during the week.
Protests in Ferguson had dwindled in size and intensity in the days after the grand jury decision, then gained renewed energy on Friday as demonstrators temporarily shut down a St. Louis-area mall and turned up in force at other shopping areas across the country.
In Ferguson, there were at least 16 arrests overnight, police said, and dozens of others in other cities.
The NAACP expects about 1,000 people to be part of the final leg of the "Journey for Justice" march, said Adams, who will participate in the march along with other NAACP staff members and the organization's president, Cornell William Brooks.
"We are resolute and excited to get started and moving forward in something that's positive, a nonviolent demonstration toward criminal justice reform and police reform," Adams said.
The civil rights group is asking participants to protect themselves against icy conditions expected along the route by wearing hand warmers and wool socks.
The NAACP is also calling for a new police chief in Ferguson and a national law to prevent racial profiling by police.
Marchers will be able to shuttle back and forth between the walk and their residences in the St. Louis area, by taking a bus back to a staging area, Adams said.
Ragnarok.Raenil said: »
There is nothing supporting his word either. And science dictates you have to prove, not disprove.
My bias is justified.
My bias is justified.
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