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October Job Adjustments
 Bahamut.Malothar
Server: Bahamut
Game: FFXI
Posts: 396
By Bahamut.Malothar 2014-10-04 19:52:52
Sure that's a smart limitation but still, even without Geomancy+ some Indiclosures will be quite good.
Indi-Haste with Entrust plus Haste from a /RDM sub will cap a person, no?
If so then, provided there's a Corsair in the party.
Entrust > Indi-Haste (DD ONE)
Random Deal > Entrust > Indi-Fury (DD TWO)
Wild Card > Entrust > Indi-Precision (DD THREE)
Random Deal > Entrust > Indi-Refresh (Backline)
Indi-Torpor and Geo-Frailty from the Geomancer himself.
Geomancer = Attack Bonus / Accuracy Bonus / Haste / Refresh / Defense Down / Evasion Down
Corsair = Attack Bonus / Store TP or Double Attack / Refresh / Conserve MP
That's not even taking into account that the Corsair in the party can use Chaos Roll to make up for the loss of Geomancy+ and can use another DD buff on the front line and also have Refresh on the backline to again make up for the loss of Geomancy+.
Really get the feeling that SE is desperate to break the over-reliance on Bard for everything.
And by time you finish that, you'll have less than 2 minutes left on Indi-Haste. It's a fun idea, but far from practical.
Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6052
By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2014-10-04 19:54:20
never mind that random deal isn't the least bit reliable
Sylph.Gobbo
Server: Sylph
Game: FFXI
Posts: 300
By Sylph.Gobbo 2014-10-04 21:00:16
Beside ghesso? and even then pretty sure just sleeping clone work but I never done it, for every VD fight you'd bring rng+pld, nin was faster before ws update and now daken update.
Clones sleep before 50%, after 50% they become immune. Though using a damaging JA like Chi Blast or Quick Draw on the main Gessho after 50% depops adds.
 Valefor.Sehachan
Server: Valefor
Game: FFXI
Posts: 24219
By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-10-05 06:45:04
Extremely upset about the lack of skill increase for cor. And now we really need something about the buffs too; for instance a third roll and by that I mean static ability to put up 3, not only on 11, only on full moon, only when the square root of your number is 2, etc.
By Lyncath 2014-10-05 06:53:50
Sure that's a smart limitation but still, even without Geomancy+ some Indiclosures will be quite good.
Indi-Haste with Entrust plus Haste from a /RDM sub will cap a person, no?
If so then, provided there's a Corsair in the party.
Entrust > Indi-Haste (DD ONE)
Random Deal > Entrust > Indi-Fury (DD TWO)
Wild Card > Entrust > Indi-Precision (DD THREE)
Random Deal > Entrust > Indi-Refresh (Backline)
Indi-Torpor and Geo-Frailty from the Geomancer himself.
Geomancer = Attack Bonus / Accuracy Bonus / Haste / Refresh / Defense Down / Evasion Down
Corsair = Attack Bonus / Store TP or Double Attack / Refresh / Conserve MP
That's not even taking into account that the Corsair in the party can use Chaos Roll to make up for the loss of Geomancy+ and can use another DD buff on the front line and also have Refresh on the backline to again make up for the loss of Geomancy+.
Really get the feeling that SE is desperate to break the over-reliance on Bard for everything.
And by time you finish that, you'll have less than 2 minutes left on Indi-Haste. It's a fun idea, but far from practical. Fair point that, one could forego Indi-Precision as Indi-Torpor will do the job. Refresh might also be not necessary provided the Corsair gets a good number on his roll.
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »never mind that random deal isn't the least bit reliable You'd be surprised how reliable it can actually be with at least one Loaded Deck merit and the augment from Lanun Frac +1. At the very least you're looking at least 2 resets of Entrust through Wild Card and, if timed correctly so that Entrust is the only JA waiting on reset, a shot of Random Deal.
Regardless, this will make Geomancer even more appealing as a replacement for Bard in some situations. I'd still bring a 99 D-Harp Bard for obvious reasons but it'll be great to have a legit alternative.
 Lakshmi.Saevel
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2228
By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-10-05 08:25:29
NIN setups only work if the NM doesn't have moves that instantly strip (shadows) them or flat out ignore them. That has been the primary problem for a long time, many mega boss's will just ignore all shadows and just hit you anyway. AA's are a bit difference since they don't possess any move that do that, only AAEV with dumb stuff like Diaga -> Dominion Slash. But take NIN to any of the delve zones or incursion and their shadows are essentially useless.
 Asura.Ccl
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1995
By Asura.Ccl 2014-10-05 08:48:05
The current game is divided in 2 kind of event for me:
- blink tank or pld + rng (this is the one nin is relevant, might have avatar fight added to that soon)
- melee burn zerg kind of event (mostly delve/incursion, nin is not worth bringing atm)
Another reason nin shadow are useless is because damage taken is weak enough in those zone that any "heavy dd" can tank but I think this is mostly due to good healer having unlimited np nowadays; so either ***can one shot you or damage taken is irrelevant.
We're too strong right now with unlimited mp and every dd being able to 50% dt if it's really needed. We need a nerf to our survivability/refresh if we want more than the flavor of the month dd to be the only job people bring to event and I don't know how they could do that without people being mad.
I pluged nin into spreadsheet after they announced the change, I was suprised how close it is to non sam/ryu drg dd.
Quetzalcoatl.Orestes
Server: Quetzalcoatl
Game: FFXI
Posts: 430
By Quetzalcoatl.Orestes 2014-10-05 08:51:01
NIN setups only work if the NM doesn't have moves that instantly strip them or flat out ignore them. That has been the primary problem for a long time, many mega boss's will just ignore all shadows and just hit you anyway. AA's are a bit difference since they don't possess any move that do that, only AAEV with dumb stuff like Diaga -> Dominion Slash. But take NIN to any of the delve zones or incursion and their shadows are essentially useless.
Nin is excellent in uncursion. What exactly do you imagine gives nin a problem there? Sure, there's a few annoying moves that strip shadows but none of them really hurt you. All the moves that take weapons, cause amnesia, dispel buffs, or have the potential to one shot you are absorbed by shadows. Croctastrophy, merciless mauling, etc
having around 10 seconds on Ni recast helps though.
Lakshmi.Saevel
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2228
By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-10-05 08:56:23
Quote: We're too strong right now with unlimited mp and every dd being able to 50% dt if it's really needed. We need a nerf to our survivability/refresh if we want more than the flavor of the month dd to be the only job people bring to event and I don't know how they could do that without people being mad.
No, just f*cking no. If anything its the other way around with mega boss's have crazy offensive abilities which is what forces us to use one of two setups, PLD + RNG or melee burn (kill it before it kills you). PDT means nothing when NMs Ratio's can get to 4.0 through a combination of their own high attack, gear stripping, multiple dispells or potent defense down effects.
It's never a good idea to reply on insanely high stats as a form of "difficulty" as it only creates an arms race between the players and the developers. Better to use phases and battle mechanics that favor strategy and communication over gearswap automated button mashing.
Asura.Ccl
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1995
By Asura.Ccl 2014-10-05 09:15:28
None of the dmg taken on the event we bring melee is relevant if you're half geared, you can fight delve boss/ouryu for 45min with never running out of mp/dying; how is that not an issue with us being too strong ?
I'm only at incursion clvl 129 atm, but mob there aren't dangerous neither since we can stun them and they are more annoying than dangerous if their attack land.
As for AA, pld is invincible and it's impossible to run out of mp neither if you go healer, when we super tank DM, I even afk after position(no ja, no self cure, nada), how is that no an issue in us being too strong ?
Lakshmi.Saevel
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2228
By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-10-05 09:22:13
Because your gimicking the system that is why. Take that OChain off your PLD and watch what happens. Stop stunning the moves and watch what happens.
What your doing is avoiding the offensive abilities because they are simply too powerful to deal with otherwise. Making them more powerful won't effect you as you would still avoid them and cheese the fight.
This is why you don't use high stats as a form of difficulty, players will find a way around those stats, either by raising their own to match or by finding a blind spot in the AI and making those stats irrelevant. It's the same as people who complain about "stuff is too easy" while simultaneously using the absolutely easiest strategy that bypass's the fight mechanics. It's only easy because you've found a hole in the developers design and are exploiting that hole to maximize your effort vs reward ratio.
A NM can do 9,999 damage per swing with instant death, petrification, weakness, amnesia, and silence (just to be sure), and if you find a way to ignore that attack then it effectively doesn't exist. The better you are at cheesing the easier the game seems to become.
In PnP D&D we call them munchkins and the most effective strategy to dealing with them is to model the encounters in such a way that stats become meaningless. That or periodically drop large boulders from space onto their heads.
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Asura.Ccl
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1995
By Asura.Ccl 2014-10-05 09:37:36
So we're not too strong, I just have to not use the tool the game give me so I see how weak we are?
Also I don't stun delve II and could do incursion without stun and not die (this might change at higher lvl but only 129) this would just make us do only 1-2 NM/run instead of 5-6 since the only thing those mob do is annoying move not dangerous.
We won't agree, I still believe that if mob melee hit would do 400 instead of 200; that whm could eventually run out of mp if they spam cure/curaga III, we'd see more use for non 2hander dd if we had to use defensive ability, cause at the moment, SE might as well delete seigan from the game.
Ragnarok.Martel
Server: Ragnarok
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2902
By Ragnarok.Martel 2014-10-05 09:39:08
Because your gimicking the system that is why. Take that OChain off your PLD and watch what happens. Equip Priwen. Maintain reprisal. Obtain much the same result.
And if that was a suggestion for a PLD to not wear a shield at all, I would offer that getting stomped by doing something stupid doesn't mean the mob is challenging.
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Lakshmi.Saevel
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2228
By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-10-05 09:51:52
Because your gimicking the system that is why. Take that OChain off your PLD and watch what happens. Equip Priwen. Maintain reprisal. Obtain much the same result.
And if that was a suggestion for a PLD to not wear a shield at all, I would offer that getting stomped by doing something stupid doesn't mean the mob is challenging.
Nahh was just pointing out how "easy" was being defined by avoiding a particular set of offensive moves by use of a broken game mechanic (Ochain and to an extent Priwen). We would only use such a setup because the NM would be so ridiculously powerful that melee's standing anywhere near it would be flattened.
See my example above about a stupidly overpowered NM ability that would instantly ruin any ones chance at victory. That could be defined as "challanging", yet if the developers never thought about stun spam, and we as players decide to utilize stun spam, then we can effectively remove that move from the game. It might as well not even exist. There are only a handful of battle developers, I would be surprised if more then two or three. How many players on the BG forum contributing to the hive mind on every event, how fast do they discover any mechanical holes or "easy mode" strategies? Even with SE hiding so many of the game mechanics from us, it doesn't take long to reverse engineer and create a "if we do X we can side step their bullsh!t and get the shinys". Then "X" becomes standard strategy as the knowledge spreads like wildfire across the forums and ppl like CCL start complaining that it's "too easy".
So basically he wants the developers to think of every possible contingency that would allow a player to bypass or mitigate a NM's moves, then give that same NM moves so powerful that it wrecks players in max defense gear.
SE actually did that, twice, and the result was the exact same. They was known as Absolute Virtue and Pandemonium Warden, and it was widely determined to be horrible game design. Hell even with something as ridiculously overpowered as AV, we still found holes in it's AI / design that required SE to patch in order to maintain it's godlike "challanging" status.
Lakshmi.Saevel
Server: Lakshmi
Game: FFXI
Posts: 2228
By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-10-05 10:01:54
Now for what people like CCL are really asking for. It has absolutely nothing to do with challenge and everything to do with exclusivity. They want an event where only they can win, if victory becomes possible for too many players, then the event loses it's badge status. They have already demonstrated they aren't after challenge as they will deploy every tool at their disposal, even breaking the rules via TPA, in order to lower the difficulty and maximize effort vs reward ratios. They just don't want anyone else to do that. It's a mentality that pops up quite often in MMO's amongst a certain population.
Anyhow, currently this game is extremely lopsided in design. Boss NM's have ridiculously high stats, both offensive and defensive. We counter this by utilizing massive amounts of stacked buffs / debuffs, BRD's CORs and GEO's to go around. We then determine a method of neutralizing the boss NM's offensive capability, either through denial (stun spam) or complete avoidance (PLD + RNG). Once that's done, we fine tune the mechanics and *poof* all challenge removed because SE's battle engine isn't flexible enough and their developers are too underfunded to design real mechanics that don't involved a collection of dice rolls.
This is the only way to "win" in FFXI, and it will always reduce any content to cheese "easy mode" level of difficulty. This is why things always seem "easy" after the mechanics are discovered.
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Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 726
By Asura.Highwynn 2014-10-05 10:02:45
Quote: It's never a good idea to reply on insanely high stats as a form of "difficulty" as it only creates an arms race between the players and the developers. Better to use phases and battle mechanics that favor strategy and communication over gearswap automated button mashing.
This. Adding specific lore weaknesses to boss to make fights more dynamic would make everything more exciting and less zergy. Delve NMs were kinda like this but it could be expanded further in my opinion. Like if I could have remade DM II, I'd tone down their aoes so that its not a RNG fest but I would increase their SP2 usage. Fight GK and he spams Meikyo but you could lock his 2hrs by magic bursting him since Galkas are the least proficient in magic (wisdom/magic vs rage) etc. Can prevent TT from using Manafont by provoking him and usingn job abilities on him(aggression/bravery vs Cowardice). Prevent MR from charming or PDing by using skillchains(cooperation vs envy), prevent Hume from blowing up or spamming mighty strikes by constantly debuffing him(mindfulness/fastidiousness vs apathy). Prevent EV from using AI from only dealing damage from behind(stealth/sneakiness vs Arrogance). Just little things like that would make fights more interesting and justify overpoweredness. Incredibly powerful moves like arrigance incarnate should be a "punishing" move- something you get hit with for not weakening EV or something she does in retaliation to being hit with a type of damage or direction. Fafnir made sense. You hit from behind you get flailed. Powerful moves like Tera Slash, Arrogance Incarnate etc need to either be abolished from the game or recreated such that they can be avoided. The method of avoiding should either be either hitting the mob with something(prevention) *not* hitting the mob with something(counter) or some kind of action or position like /kneel or being within a certain distance to make it miss(Marine Mayhem). Cheesing with scherzo/EA or stunning is a viable strategy but i doubt SE created these monsters and knew players are going in with top stunners with 80% cast reduction to stun every single tp move. It just doesnt jive.
I'm fine with one shottable AoE's like Arrogance Incarnate and crap but only if there's a way to avoid the damage by means other than dt gear, or earthen armor/scherzo. Weaken mobs ridiculoussness using teamwork and strategy, not relying on one job's buff or fighting from a distance for every mob with powerful attacks.
Alternatively they could create multiple strategies for various NMs so its not just one way to weaken them. Like you could make Ouryu land with Mistmelts, Procing him with damage after staggering his elementals, or a Dragoon's Dragon Breaker ability. I guess i'm inspired by Dragon's Dogma which had like a million different ways to weaken or nerf bosses no matter what class/job you were and it made strategies more fun and interesting than just minmaxing damage dealt and damage taken.
Stunning every tp move should never be a viable option.do you think SE intended us to make mobs piss easy by making them unable to act for the duration of the fight? Then when they make the mobs immune to stun, its just bring relic rangers? At least the new delves made things interesting, especially Yorcia and Kamhir, since it requires different damage types.
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Server: Leviathan
Game: FFXI
Posts: 6052
By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2014-10-05 10:04:46
take away the one shot ability and you take away any challenge, gjallarhorn and orison pantaloons+2 make sure of that
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Asura.Ccl
Server: Asura
Game: FFXI
Posts: 1995
By Asura.Ccl 2014-10-05 10:27:22
Yeah right I want event only I can win..... I wasn't aware ochain/ghorn/koga/orison pant+2 were item only me or my ls could get sry.
edit: if that was the case I'd be rushing clvl in incursion instead of taking it the slow way to not run out of content to do; cause I doubt everyone can clear 135+.
By Lye 2014-10-05 11:08:36
The connection to "munchkins" and what you believe the FFXI playerbase to be is tenuous at best.
The analogy has confirmation bias written all over it. Do you truly believe yourself the sole arbiter of how to play FFXI?
Siren.Sieha
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 503
By Siren.Sieha 2014-10-05 12:22:57
The connection to "munchkins" and what you believe the FFXI playerbase to be is tenuous at best.
The analogy has confirmation bias written all over it. Do you truly believe yourself the sole arbiter of how to play FFXI?
its Saevel, of course he is right and you should only play perfectly as he see's it. I mean why would you ever do anything that isnt perfect in terms of strategy. The fun is in a overly repetitive game play tactic right?
p.s. no one else is ever right.
Siren.Sieha
Server: Siren
Game: FFXI
Posts: 503
By Siren.Sieha 2014-10-05 12:26:37
Quote: [dev1235] Job Adjustments
The following jobs will undergo adjustments.
Warrior
The effects of the job ability Berserk will increase in stages as the player rises in level. Physical attack will increase by 1% per stage at levels 50, 60, 70, 80, and 90, and will reach a maximum of 30% when combined with the original effects.
The effects of the job ability Defender will increase in stages as the player rises in level. Physical defense will increase by 1% per stage at levels 50, 60, 70, 80, and 90, and will reach a maximum of 30% when combined with the original effects.
Thief
Dagger skill will be raised from A to A+.
Beastmaster
Axe skill will be raised from A to A+.
Familiars summoned using the Call Beast ability will have increased physical and magic accuracy when level 100 or above.
Ninja
A new job trait, Daken, will be added.
When equipped with a shuriken, the ninja will occasionally throw it upon autoattacking.
This trait will be learned at level 25 and will increase in stages at level 40, 55, 70, and 95.
* Shuriken thrown using Daken will not be consumed.
Sange will undergo the following adjustments.
Sange (Recast time: 3 min., effect duration: 60 sec.)
Daken will always activate but consume shuriken. Increase ranged accuracy by 25.
Katana skill will be raised from A to A+.
Dragoon
Wyverns will have increased physical and magic accuracy when level 100 or above.
Summoner
A new spell will be added.
Atomos (Lv. 75, Recast time: 60 sec.)
Removes one magic effect from an enemy and grants it to friendly players within area of effect.
* Atomos has no additional blood pacts usable during Astral Flow.
A new job ability, Apogee, will be added.
Apogee (Lv. 70, Recast time: 5 min., Effect duration: 60 sec.)
Decreases the recast time on the next blood pact, but causes it to consume more MP.
The job ability Avatar's Favor will be changed.
Penalties, including physical and magic attack, will be abolished.
The avatar's perpetuation cost will increase.
Avatars will have increased physical and magic accuracy when level 100 or above.
Blue Mage
The casting time of the following spells will be decreased.
Metallic Body / Warm-Up / Amplification / Zephyr Mantle / Triumphant Roar
The effect duration of the following spells will be increased.
Memento Mori / Reactor Cool / Saline Coat / Plasma Charge / Diamondhide / Magic Barrier / Barrier Tusk / Orcish Counterstance / Nature's Meditation / Zephyr Mantle / Triumphant Roar
The MP cost of Triumphant Roar will be decreased.
The efficacy of Regeneration will be increased.
Attribute adjustments will be added to the following spells.
Tempestuous Upheaval / Rending Deluge / Enbalming Earth / Foul Water / Retinal Glare / Subduction
Sword skill will be raised from A to A+.
Puppetmaster
Hand-to-hand skill will be raised from B+ to A+.
Automatons will have increased physical and magic accuracy when level 100 or above.
Dancer
The following job abilities will undergo adjustments.
The recast time for steps will be decreased from fifteen to five seconds.
The recast time for the job ability Presto will be decreased from thirty to fifteen seconds.
The job ability Climactic Flourish will receive a damage boost varying with charisma.
The job ability Striking Flourish will have its recast time decreased from 120 to thirty seconds and will receive a damage boost varying with charisma.
The job ability Ternary Flourish will have its recast time decreased from 120 to forty-five seconds and will receive a damage boost varying with charisma.
Dagger skill will be raised from B+ to A+.
Geomancer
A new job ability, Entrust, will be added.
Entrust (Lv. 75, Recast time: 10 min., Effect duration: 60sec.)
The next indicolure spell cast may target a party member.
The increase in pet Attack and ACC is nice. As is most 1-hand weapon skill ranking getting increased from A to A+. Avatar favor not gimping pets is long overdue.
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