Sigurd's Descendants: The Art Of Dragon Slaying.

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Sigurd's Descendants: The Art of Dragon Slaying.
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 Leviathan.Katriina
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By Leviathan.Katriina 2017-11-13 10:40:01
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Personally, I built mine overtime.

Was never stressed over it and didn't even start it until I had all currency (buying/farming)

Meanwhile I was clearing for Trish and got them both almost simultaneously because I overlapped their timelines
Rho's Benchmark started way earlier hence taking longer because it was classified as a laid-back Project.

All Im pointing out here, it can be done with zero effort and have both instead of one and use each according to its best scenario.
 Sylph.Cherche
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By Sylph.Cherche 2017-11-13 14:17:44
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Only thing I'm throwing in here:

Pointing out that CT is a ***closer is a stupid argument. In what remotely serious content are you actually letting a DRG end a coordinated multi-step Radiance?
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-11-13 14:54:58
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Sylph.Cherche said: »
Only thing I'm throwing in here:

Pointing out that CT is a ***closer is a stupid argument. In what remotely serious content are you actually letting a DRG end a coordinated multi-step Radiance?
It was pointed out because Katriina did a bunch of Quetzalcoatls solo SCing and ending in CT. This was intended as evidence that Trishula is weaker than Rhongomiant. Obviously, that is far from an effective way to use Trishula.
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 Bismarck.Lothoro
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By Bismarck.Lothoro 2017-11-13 16:17:06
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Leviathan.Katriina said: »
It is not relevant at all if you're a serious DRG and Im more than sure any serious DRG would go for it.
Just for the purposes of this post, I will set aside skillchain damage, AM3 loss, disengaged time, and every other factor that favors Trishula, and take the simulation numbers at face value without context.

Okay, so let's say you're great at farming abyssea. You can finish all 3 stages in 12 hours. You farm 3 million gil an hour consistantly. You do not dislike any of the content involved. This is pretty near best case for someone making a Rhongomiant.

Now, you can spend 12 hours on abyssea, 15 hours on base NMs, and 60 hours farming currency. That's a total of 87 hours involved in making a Rhongomiant. Since there's no meaningful supply of taupe stones on AH, let's add another 10 hours making the WS valorous. Since you're counting on a good QA valorous mail and hose in your highest difference scenario('kat stp trish vs kat qa valorous'), we can add another 50 hours worth of gil to get 150 dark matters. With your QA set That's a total investment of 147 hours to make a weapon that does 5483 DPS.

I can make an Aeonic from scratch, counting beads, in 10 hours. That's probably not realistic for most people, so let's use the gil value and a more typical beads value: 200m and 25 hours of bead farming(2 quetz an hour). Instead of QA valorous, you use DA valorous, with a much lighter investment of ~5 hours of stone farming. Both setups still need stardiver sets, but this one doesn't need a Camlann's set. This gets you 5324 DPS.

You're looking at a difference of 50 hours invested, for a 2.98% gain in damage. If that were something every 'serious' player was willing to do, we never would've had people running around in NQ adhemar. Prior to price drop, how many did you see in full HQ..? It's comparable time spent : DPS gain.

Now, throw in the differences we disregarded earlier and consider that even if you are right and Rhongomiant is better, it's by a factor of less than 2.98% in these circumstances. That's a completely horrible rate of return on your effort. It's perfectly reasonable to mention the effort, even without assuming it is worse. If you have a shell capable of farming Aeonic without paying, the gap increases from 50 hours to over 100.

If you ever do anything that requires self skillchaining, you still need a Trishula. If you do skillchains with a partner, you still need Trishula. In these cases, the gap increase to a full 147 hours. If you farm gil slower than 3m/hour or spend more than 12 hours in abyssea, it gets even higher. It's anything but a modest amount of effort.

Yes, you are correct. Trishula is definitely the better investment if you have a choice between the two. With a good LS, it requires a lot less time to do the aeonic clears and it doesn't cost anything.

But, I'm not sure why you keep trying to argue about Rhon being a poor investment of money and time when this is a game where people make RMEA and the weapon ends up not being best in slot due to SE's adjustments. Would you say Ryunohige was a bad investment back when it was best in slot since it's not best in slot anymore? Same could go with any of the RMEAs, SE is always shifting what is best in slot with each RMEA update. That's why making any RMEA is never completely "worthless" because you never know how SE will adjust the weapon in future RMEA updates.

Which brings me to my next point: Will they upgrade Aeonic weapons in the next potential RMEA update? I wouldn't be so sure. Which would leave Trishula in the dust after the next potential RMEA update. Or, for all we know, they update both of them, and Rhon comes out on top.

It's fair to say Rhon is a poor time investment. But you shouldn't be discouraging people from making it, because over half of the RMEAs are poor investments right now and people still make them. No one should have ever bought any of the Adhemar HQ gear for 200-300 mill if we want to keep talking about poor investments since the gear will become outdated with no potential for future upgrades (unlike RME(A?)).

Edit:
Spicy: your guide is amazing by the way. But I do feel that it is misguided to say that "you should only make Rhon if you can't get Trishula." What people spend their gil and time on is up to them. Personally, I'd rather use that 200 mill to make another RME that will likely continue to be updated, rather than 200 mill on a HQ Adhemar piece that will never get updated. But, to each their own.
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By Nariont 2017-11-13 16:53:07
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I dont think anyones calling Rho outright bad, but that it shouldnt be one of your main goals in terms of other DRG remas except for maybe ryu, gungir has a niche in areas where you need acc and it offers another sc prop ws that doesnt do -terrible- dmg either. Trish has a niche in its tp bonus, stp, and adding sc option to polearms best WS aswell as giving another tier SC. Both of these would be a better initial investment than Rho which just provides a small DPS increase that could be overcome by either needing more acc and/or applying SC dmg.
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2017-11-13 17:01:36
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Ryunohige was best by a massive margin of superiority(~50% DPS difference) for a loooog loong time. Ryu was what enabled DRG to compete with top tier DDs of the era.

I had mine for much of that time and they were good times for DRG. By no means was it a waste, regardless of where Ryu stands today. I more than got my monies worth outta it. Joining Dainslef then doing very well at ADL made me many more mythics worth of gil. And I question if I would have been invited to it if I didn't have Ryu at the time. I miss ADL sometimes. Such gil and such competitive DDs. And I was right up there with them, often winning parses with some of the best players on my server. Cause I had Ryu.

Rhongomiant has never enjoyed such massive superiority. Ever. The latest REMA update has managed to bring it up to the level of being competitive, and some times marginally better, if you ignore, you know. reality. SC potential, AM3 costs, etc.

Also, Paraphrasing, but:"Don't tell people not to waste their time, cause everything is a waste of time" is a very poor argument for anything. If people are going to make them anyway, then they should be aware of what they're doing. They should be warned. Then if they choose to do so anyway, that's their choice.

It sucks to be uninformed, make a wep thinking it's gonna be amazing, and then find it it wasn't what you thought. People quit this game over that sorta thing.

Now I don't think Rhongomiant is quit the game level bad. It's not. But if someone's going to make it, they should know the general consensus on where it stands. If SE buffs it later, they won the update lottery. and if not, they knew what they were doing. SO any disappointment should be minor.

Key point? You can make a new REMA AFTER SE buffs it. There's no need to play update lottery.
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 Bismarck.Lothoro
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By Bismarck.Lothoro 2017-11-13 17:01:58
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Nariont said: »
I dont think anyones calling Rho outright bad, but that it shouldnt be one of your main goals in terms of other DRG remas except for maybe ryu, gungir has a niche in areas where you need acc and it offers another sc prop ws that doesnt do -terrible- dmg either. Trish has a niche in its tp bonus, stp, and adding sc option to polearms best WS aswell as giving another tier SC. Both of these would be a better initial investment than Rho which just provides a small DPS increase that could be overcome by either needing more acc and/or applying SC dmg.

And I completely agree, Rho is a poor investment. If given the choice between Trish and Rho, you should make Trishula.

After that though, make whatever you like. A friend of mine made Liberator when it isn't going to outparse Ragnarok. But, he likes using a scythe. So he made it. Poor time investment? Maybe/Probably. But, good for him. It's fine to outline what's the best time investment for RMEA vs the poor time investments for RMEA. But don't judge people or discourage people from making any RME they want to.
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 Bismarck.Lothoro
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By Bismarck.Lothoro 2017-11-13 17:10:21
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
Ryunohige was best by a massive margin of superiority(~50% DPS difference) for a loooog loong time. Ryu was what enabled DRG to compete with top tier DDs of the era.

I had mine for much of that time and they were good times for DRG. By no means was it a waste, regardless of where Ryu stands today. I more than got my monies worth outta it. Joining Dainslef then doing very well at ADL made me many more mythics worth of gil. And I question if I would have been invited to it if I didn't have Ryu at the time. I miss ADL sometimes. Such gil and such competitive DDs. And I was right up there with them, often winning parses with some of the best players on my server. Cause I had Ryu.

Rhongomiant has never enjoyed such massive superiority. Ever. The latest REMA update has managed to bring it up to the level of being competitive, and some times marginally better, if you ignore, you know. reality. SC potential, AM3 costs, etc.

Also, Paraphrasing, but:"Don't tell people not to waste their time, cause everything is a waste of time" is a very poor argument for anything. If people are going to make them anyway, then they should be aware of what they're doing. They should be warned. Then if they choose to do so anyway, that's their choice.

It sucks to be uninformed, make a wep thinking it's gonna be amazing, and then find it it wasn't what you thought. People quit this game over that sorta thing.

Now I don't think Rhongomiant is quit the game level bad. It's not. But if someone's going to make it, they should know the general consensus on where it stands. If SE buffs it later, they won the update lottery. and if not, they knew what they were doing. SO any disappointment should be minor.

Key point? You can make a new REMA AFTER SE buffs it. There's no need to play update lottery.

I'm not arguing that players should be uninformed of what they are making. Again, as a stated above, which you must have misread, is that Trishula is a much better time investment and a better weapon than Rho. I am in complete agreement with saying that Rho is a poor investment at the moment.

But, as I just posted above, there is a difference between saying that a weapon is a poor investment and saying that you should not make the weapon, period.
 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2017-11-13 17:18:32
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So you think people should make poor investments? Why?

And I don't believe I misread anything. But I do think you are possibly not making a lot of sense.
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 Bismarck.Lothoro
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By Bismarck.Lothoro 2017-11-13 17:33:45
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
So you think people should make poor investments? Why?

And I don't believe I misread anything. But I do think you are possibly not making a lot of sense.

So you're arguing that everyone should only make the RMEA that is currently best in slot, and no other RMEA? I can agree that you should make the RMEA that is best in slot first. But nothing else, simply because its a poor investment? You should just save, save, and save gil and not make any other RMEA? I mean, if you have a Ragnarok DRK, you shouldnt bother making Liberator because its a poor investment? What if you like using a scythe for fun?
 Fenrir.Ramzus
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By Fenrir.Ramzus 2017-11-13 17:39:43
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No he's arguing about making what's most practical. The DRK comparison doesn't even work because Liberator, Apocalypse and Ragnarok are all very different styles of weapons (and not even the same weapon type.) Trishula and Rhongo operate mostly the same way, and Trishula isn't even """BiS""" which has been said a few times in this thread already.
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 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-11-13 17:54:46
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spciys guide isn’t really aimed at people looking to get dm augmented gear in every slot and to make every single weapon for the job in the first place.
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 Bismarck.Lothoro
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By Bismarck.Lothoro 2017-11-13 18:20:56
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Fenrir.Ramzus said: »
No he's arguing about making what's most practical. The DRK comparison doesn't even work because Liberator, Apocalypse and Ragnarok are all very different styles of weapons (and not even the same weapon type.) Trishula and Rhongo operate mostly the same way, and Trishula isn't even """BiS""" which has been said a few times in this thread already.

Yes. You should make what's most practical. You should make Trishula first over Rhong since its a better time and gil investment, as outlined by the last 10 pages that has beaten this topic to death. Fair point about the DRK comparison.

It's perfectly reasonable to state that Rhon is a poor time investment. Spicy does this. But he goes too far when he starts saying "Rhon should be only made if you can't get Trishula". If someone already has Trishula and wants to make a poor investment in Rhon for the times when it does happen to outparse Trishula (which Katriina outlined, before the disaster that was including SC damage), then they should. Spicy's above statement does not convey that. He doesn't make any mention of Gungnir and Ryunohige being poor investments at this time (which they are). Seems biased to me.
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 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-11-13 20:00:26
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going back to the skillchain factor, if all you're doing is spamming stardiver so every other ws makes darkness, you'll still average 51.5% increase in ws damage, moreso if you're maintaining am2 or 3.

(x + x + x * 1.03) / 2 / x = 1.515

if roughly 80% of my damage comes from ws and 20% from autos before SC damage is considered it'd be a 41.2% increase in damage. I'd say that's a bit more than 2.9%

(0.2 + 0.8 * 1.515) / (0.2 + 0.8) = 1.412

but what if you only manage one darkness out of 10 with everyone spamming?

(10x + x * 1.03) / 10 / x = 1.103

(0.2 + 0.8 * 1.103) / (0.2 + 0.8) = 1.0824 an 8.24% increase

In fact, you'd have to almost go 30 WS and only SC for one darkness to be equal to a 3% increase.

(0.2 + 0.8 * x) / (0.2 + 0.8) = 1.03
x = 1.0375

(y * x + x * 1.03) / y / x = 1.0375
y = 27.4667
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 Ragnarok.Martel
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By Ragnarok.Martel 2017-11-13 20:22:33
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Bismarck.Lothoro said: »
Fenrir.Ramzus said: »
No he's arguing about making what's most practical. The DRK comparison doesn't even work because Liberator, Apocalypse and Ragnarok are all very different styles of weapons (and not even the same weapon type.) Trishula and Rhongo operate mostly the same way, and Trishula isn't even """BiS""" which has been said a few times in this thread already.

Yes. You should make what's most practical. You should make Trishula first over Rhong since its a better time and gil investment, as outlined by the last 10 pages that has beaten this topic to death. Fair point about the DRK comparison.

It's perfectly reasonable to state that Rhon is a poor time investment. Spicy does this. But he goes too far when he starts saying "Rhon should be only made if you can't get Trishula". If someone already has Trishula and wants to make a poor investment in Rhon for the times when it does happen to outparse Trishula (which Katriina outlined, before the disaster that was including SC damage), then they should. Spicy's above statement does not convey that. He doesn't make any mention of Gungnir and Ryunohige being poor investments at this time (which they are). Seems biased to me.
He says Gungnir is the easy to make option, that you could call "good enough" and literally calls Ryu the worst. Those should both make it pretty clear there are stronger options.

And biased? You do realized that before the various Rhongo discussion in on these forums he had Rhongomiant listed as first place uncontested. Only after the evaluating the information presented here did he update to the current guides polearm hierarchy.

I'm not sure where this bias is supposed to be coming from. If he'd had a bias I'd have thought it would have been towards maintaining his prior status quo. Most biases tend to be that way.
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 Bismarck.Lothoro
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By Bismarck.Lothoro 2017-11-13 20:40:12
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Ragnarok.Martel said: »
He says Gungnir is the easy to make option, that you could call "good enough" and literally calls Ryu the worst. Those should both make it pretty clear there are stronger options.

And biased? You do realized that before the various Rhongo discussion in on these forums he had Rhongomiant listed as first place uncontested. Only after the evaluating the information presented here did he update to the current guides polearm hierarchy.

I'm not sure where this bias is supposed to be coming from. If he'd had a bias I'd have thought it would have been towards maintaining his prior status quo. Most biases tend to be that way.

You're right, he clearly establishes a first, second, third, fourth hierarchy. I have no issue with that. I have an issue with saying "rhon should only be made if one cannot obtain trishula" when that statement isn't made for gungnir or ryunohige. Both gungnir and rhon are poor investments. If someone has Trishula and wants to make Gungnir for a high acc set / distortion WS property, they don't see a statement saying that you really shouldn't make such a poor investment like they do with Rhon.
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 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-11-13 20:59:44
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spicy has a thread on bg where you can bring up issues to him. while I think his wording is a bit overboard, I don't disagree with his assessment that the weapon is not worth making, keeping in mind who the guide is aimed at.
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 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2017-11-13 21:01:49
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it's almost like someone who understands basic logic can read his reasoning for why the weapon isn't worth making, decide on their own they feel it is worth making, and make it anyway
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 Asura.Saevel
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By Asura.Saevel 2017-11-13 21:31:33
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
it's almost like someone who understands basic logic can read his reasoning for why the weapon isn't worth making, decide on their own they feel it is worth making, and make it anyway

If someone wants to make a particular weapon then there is nothing wrong with that, hell I'm slowly making Conq that'll I'll only play around with. That same person trying to justify their decision with *** is a big problem though, should just say "hey I wanted to do it" and end it there.
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By Foxfire 2017-11-13 22:08:31
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i've been reading this thread for a while now, but my favorite comment thus far has been, and i'm paraphrasing:

"you could make a trishula that could perform equal or better than a rhongo

OR!!!!
hearmeoutherefellas
OR!!

u wait 15 months plus wait for a dm campaign plus get a perfect qa valor set

and get a rhongo"

more like wrong-o

:^)

edit: also, i agree with above posters
if u wanna make one, by all means
but when an entire thread is telling you you're wrong, just own up, friend
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By Anna Ruthven 2017-11-14 07:38:41
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Here, go fight about spears here.
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 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2017-11-14 08:11:19
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Leviathan.Katriina said: »
None of the above “commenters” spent time/effort to show everyone how biased the description is on Guide and how it’s discouraging potential players from making it.
Then take the description up with Spicy in his own thread where he isn't banned (he's a little upset nobody uses his thread anyways). And these "potential players" are going to get more mileage out of trishula.

Leviathan.Katriina said: »
I do concede that the test was poorly designed apparently from the bombardment of various people (including my friend) about the use of CT/RAD cycle despite me breaking down why I picked it up in the first place but I digress.
picking it because it's "erratic" then not even understanding how skillchain damage works, but using QA valorous as a reasoning for Rho being a superior weapon is a bit silly. Skillchain damage is directly proportional to the closing WS damage. If you think it's erratic then we should only ever use single hit WS and avoid low amounts of stats such as QA, since that is also erratic.


Leviathan.Katriina said: »
Did any of the counter argument offered a solution to isolation? No! Did anyone bother to do another test? No
because there isn't anything to isolate...

Leviathan.Katriina said: »
If people don’t realize that I’m not here to cater for their feelings about the debate then that’s their problem.
like the guide isn't there to cater to yours?


Leviathan.Katriina said: »
No other guide ever mentions this BS.
Point out a single discription in any guide where they mention stuff like that.
spicy didn't make those other guides and he's welcome to do whatever he wants with his guide. again, he has a thread where he isn't banned you can take it up with.

Leviathan.Katriina said: »
private messages from people asking me to keep researching this
researching what, again? all of your tests are extremely biased towards rho, be it buyers remorse or you being incapable of interpreting data from either the sheets or my sim properly. My simulation times jumps perfectly and never misses maintaining AM3 for rho, something that can easily fall off due to human error you always want to bring up and human error will favor trish. It's the easier weapon to use. You also want to completely ignore skillchain damage, even just a random darkness every ~28 ws from spamming stardiver will make up your 2.9% difference assuming player error doesn't. If you want to avoid skillchains, then spamming impulse drive with trish vs am3 impulse drive spam with cam, and even then the difference is only a couple of percent. So if you're only reasonable defense for rho is the few fights you have to avoid skillchains completely, and you want to spend a lot of time and effort for it, then sure, go ahead and make it.
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By Justuas 2017-11-14 08:59:21
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Anyone care to tl;dr what ppl are arquing about
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By Asura.Oronyx 2017-11-14 09:06:15
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my brown pencil (rho) is better for outlining characters than a black pencil!(trishula)
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