California Debates 'yes Means Yes' Sex Assault Law

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California debates 'yes means yes' sex assault law
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-10-01 13:37:33
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Only marginally more cases are considered proven true, from what I could find, about 9% of rape accusations are proven in court, fully less than 15% of rape accusations lead to any kind of conviction, and as many as 8/10 rapes are never reported. There is a LOT of gray area on the subject.
That's one of the main points of the article. If you trust the methodology and assume 9% are proven true, 6% are proven false, and 85% are unknown.. you have a value between 6% and 91% for false claims and a value between 9% and 94% for true claims. I realize it's not an exact parallel between proven false and proven true, but if the distribution was the same in the unsolved cases you'd be looking at 40% false 60% true..

I think you have to make the choice before analyzing the numbers as to what you consider proof. If conviction or dismissal constitutes proof, it will largely taint the pool, if you use only cases that are proven or disproven by DNA evidence, that makes the pool too small to be accurate, etc. That's the biggest problem with the data overall, there isn't a good way to *** it and people on both sides of the argument grab the data that seems to support their view.
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By Bloodrose 2014-10-01 13:37:42
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Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Bloodrose said: »
The way Nausi tries to further victimize the victims, then subsequently preach about a culture of victimization in other threads, shows that he's one of the "Legitimate Rape" guys. Nothing more needs be said.

You clearly don't understand what I'm saying one iota.
Right, the whole "Pull yourself by your bootstraps" mythos, complimented by the "it's your fault you were shot by a stray bullet" defense mythos.

"You're not a victim of the rich white guy, stop pretending to be a victim", and then "It's your fault for some drunk driving ***, screeching down the highway, beyond your control or knowledge, if you'd never been there, you'd never have been hurt" line of thinking.

One idea states they aren't, and should never be victims (preaching the culture of victimization), and the other is clearly an opposing and contradictory stance.

How bad are your cognitive reasoning skills to not see how *** HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE this is?

Then again, blazed could only use ad hominem against me, instead of trying to actually debate what was posted, and realized he couldn't, but my post was stupid. Riiiight...
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By Quetzalcoatl.Maldini 2014-10-01 13:38:20
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Odin.Jassik said: »
Blazed1979 said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Caitsith.Shiroi said: »
I'm sure there are plenty of of false rape accusations, I don't know what % that would be, but I'm sure it's fairly big.

BUT, being found not guilty due to a lack of evidence doesn't mean it wasn't a rape, they just weren't able to prove it.
http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1o74n7/facts_and_statistics_about_false_rape_claims_a/

Sources cited, before someone sees reddit and shits themselves about credibility.

Quote:
TLDR:
-At least 6% of rape claims are false
-The vast majority of rape claims are unknown whether they are true or false
-The 6% figure does not include mistaken accusations where the accuser was raped but named the wrong defendant
-The 6% figure only includes those cases where there is strong proof it was false
-False rape claims often result in serious harm, even the ones that do not end in conviction
-Punishing false accusers does not mean that a genuine rape accuser would be prosecuted if they could not prove they were raped
-False rape claims are 4x more common than false claims of other crimes
-Rape victims receive a lot of help, but false rape claim victims receive virtually none - this should be changed.

Only marginally more cases are considered proven true, from what I could find, about 9% of rape accusations are proven in court, fully less than 15% of rape accusations lead to any kind of conviction, and as many as [b]8/10 rapes are never reported.[/b] There is a LOT of gray area on the subject.

So rape is even more widespread in the US than the figures reported? yeah bash India and Pakistan and "middle east" some more.
Definition of rape there is a lot more sane than this ***; She says no, resists and you continue = rape.
US - she doesn't say anything at all, sucks yo c_ck and it could be rape!!!


That's not what I or he said. How can you expect to be taken seriously when you say stuff like this? By your metric if you hit a woman over the head with a baseball bat then have sex with her while she's unconscious, it's only assault because she didn't try to stop the sex?

Just when I think there isn't a single good argument for drone strikes...
moron, who would you be sending your drones to strike? In case you didn't notice we're actually on the same side when it comes to international geo politics. But then again we're all just "the middle east" to morons like you.
 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2014-10-01 13:38:46
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Bloodrose said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Bloodrose said: »
The way Nausi tries to further victimize the victims, then subsequently preach about a culture of victimization in other threads, shows that he's one of the "Legitimate Rape" guys. Nothing more needs be said.

You clearly don't understand what I'm saying one iota.
Right, the whole "Pull yourself by your bootstraps" mythos, complimented by the "it's your fault you were shot by a stray bullet" defense mythos.

"You're not a victim of the rich white guy, stop pretending to be a victim", and then "It's your fault for some drunk driving ***, screeching down the highway, beyond your control or knowledge, if you'd never been there, you'd never have been hurt" line of thinking.

One idea states they aren't, and should never be victims (preaching the culture of victimization), and the other is clearly an opposing and contradictory stance.

How bad are your cognitive reasoning skills to not see how *** HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE this is?

Then again, blazed could only use ad hominem against me, instead of trying to actually debate what was posted, and realized he couldn't, but my post was stupid. Riiiight...
That's generalizing, and you know it!
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By Bloodrose 2014-10-01 13:39:45
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Asura.Kingnobody said: »
Bloodrose said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Bloodrose said: »
The way Nausi tries to further victimize the victims, then subsequently preach about a culture of victimization in other threads, shows that he's one of the "Legitimate Rape" guys. Nothing more needs be said.

You clearly don't understand what I'm saying one iota.
Right, the whole "Pull yourself by your bootstraps" mythos, complimented by the "it's your fault you were shot by a stray bullet" defense mythos.

"You're not a victim of the rich white guy, stop pretending to be a victim", and then "It's your fault for some drunk driving ***, screeching down the highway, beyond your control or knowledge, if you'd never been there, you'd never have been hurt" line of thinking.

One idea states they aren't, and should never be victims (preaching the culture of victimization), and the other is clearly an opposing and contradictory stance.

How bad are your cognitive reasoning skills to not see how *** HELP I AM TRAPPED IN 2006 PLEASE SEND A TIME MACHINE this is?

Then again, blazed could only use ad hominem against me, instead of trying to actually debate what was posted, and realized he couldn't, but my post was stupid. Riiiight...
That's generalizing, and you know it!
Oops, you caught me!
 Ragnarok.Nausi
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By Ragnarok.Nausi 2014-10-01 13:41:33
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Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
Ragnarok.Nausi said: »
Lakshmi.Flavin said: »
So basically where you are coming from is that your own existance inherently makes you culpable in everything that happens related to yourself?

Yes! You are responsible for the events that result from your own existence. I mean are you really saying that someone else is?

That doesn't mean you can't still be the victim of a crime.
I just don't want to be in that room when you start telling that little girl that she should of done more not to be raped by her father.

Existing does not make you culpable of crimes committed against you. You may be able to control your own actions but you can not control all outside forces. The path you're following pretty much takes that stance that even if you do everything you possibly can to avoid or prevent something if it happens its still your fault that it happened. That's ridiculous.

Congratulations you're really a saint, you'd go in there and convince the girl she's helpless to be raped by her father.

Life is inherently risky. No one is arguing that it isn't, but you are the only one responsible for managing how and what kind of risk you expose yourself to.
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 Cerberus.Anjisnu
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By Cerberus.Anjisnu 2014-10-01 13:42:40
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There have been times where me and my wife are white girl wasted and had sex without saying ***to each other with this law in place either of us could claim rape and I would go to jail
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-10-01 13:44:39
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Cerberus.Anjisnu said: »
There have been times where me and my wife are white girl wasted and had sex without saying ***to each other with this law in place either of us could claim rape and I would go to jail

Without this law you know the situation would end the same way right? She claims rape, you're now in the hotseat.
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By Blazed1979 2014-10-01 13:45:45
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Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Cerberus.Anjisnu said: »
There have been times where me and my wife are white girl wasted and had sex without saying ***to each other with this law in place either of us could claim rape and I would go to jail

Without this law you know the situation would end the same way right? She claims rape, you're now in the hotseat.
So this law doesn't enhance her ability to get a conviction in this hypothetical situation?

Amateurs
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By Ramyrez 2014-10-01 13:46:56
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Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Cerberus.Anjisnu said: »
There have been times where me and my wife are white girl wasted and had sex without saying ***to each other with this law in place either of us could claim rape and I would go to jail

Without this law you know the situation would end the same way right? She claims rape, you're now in the hotseat.

And according to Nausi, it's your fault for poorly selecting your wife.
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By Cerberus.Anjisnu 2014-10-01 13:47:25
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Yeah but this law states that it is criminal due to no expressed consent
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By Lakshmi.Sparthosx 2014-10-01 13:47:55
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Blazed1979 said: »
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Cerberus.Anjisnu said: »
There have been times where me and my wife are white girl wasted and had sex without saying ***to each other with this law in place either of us could claim rape and I would go to jail

Without this law you know the situation would end the same way right? She claims rape, you're now in the hotseat.
So this law doesn't enhance her ability to get a conviction in this hypothetical situation?

Amateurs

Doesn't really change the status quo, pacifies some of the more hardcore activists, may cause creepers to think twice before getting rapey and gives some women the option to more freely address their rapes.

So basically business as usual for men, some new options for women.
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By Blazed1979 2014-10-01 13:48:08
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Ramyrez said: »
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Cerberus.Anjisnu said: »
There have been times where me and my wife are white girl wasted and had sex without saying ***to each other with this law in place either of us could claim rape and I would go to jail

Without this law you know the situation would end the same way right? She claims rape, you're now in the hotseat.

according to me, U should have made her sign a consent form.

FTFY
 Cerberus.Anjisnu
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By Cerberus.Anjisnu 2014-10-01 13:48:39
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But let's be honest if that happened I'd take the kids to grandma's and off us both
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By Cerberus.Pleebo 2014-10-01 13:48:49
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This law doesn't do what people in here seem to think it does. Merely being drunk doesn't preclude consent.
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2014-10-01 13:49:22
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Quetzalcoatl.Maldini said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Blazed1979 said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Leviathan.Comeatmtebro said: »
Caitsith.Shiroi said: »
I'm sure there are plenty of of false rape accusations, I don't know what % that would be, but I'm sure it's fairly big.

BUT, being found not guilty due to a lack of evidence doesn't mean it wasn't a rape, they just weren't able to prove it.
http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1o74n7/facts_and_statistics_about_false_rape_claims_a/

Sources cited, before someone sees reddit and shits themselves about credibility.

Quote:
TLDR:
-At least 6% of rape claims are false
-The vast majority of rape claims are unknown whether they are true or false
-The 6% figure does not include mistaken accusations where the accuser was raped but named the wrong defendant
-The 6% figure only includes those cases where there is strong proof it was false
-False rape claims often result in serious harm, even the ones that do not end in conviction
-Punishing false accusers does not mean that a genuine rape accuser would be prosecuted if they could not prove they were raped
-False rape claims are 4x more common than false claims of other crimes
-Rape victims receive a lot of help, but false rape claim victims receive virtually none - this should be changed.

Only marginally more cases are considered proven true, from what I could find, about 9% of rape accusations are proven in court, fully less than 15% of rape accusations lead to any kind of conviction, and as many as [b]8/10 rapes are never reported.[/b] There is a LOT of gray area on the subject.

So rape is even more widespread in the US than the figures reported? yeah bash India and Pakistan and "middle east" some more.
Definition of rape there is a lot more sane than this ***; She says no, resists and you continue = rape.
US - she doesn't say anything at all, sucks yo c_ck and it could be rape!!!


That's not what I or he said. How can you expect to be taken seriously when you say stuff like this? By your metric if you hit a woman over the head with a baseball bat then have sex with her while she's unconscious, it's only assault because she didn't try to stop the sex?

Just when I think there isn't a single good argument for drone strikes...
moron, who would you be sending your drones to strike? In case you didn't notice we're actually on the same side when it comes to international geo politics. But then again we're all just "the middle east" to morons like you.

I'm a moron because you didn't understand that I was being snark about an archaic idea? I don't know who "we" and "you" are, I'm an isolationist anyway.
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By Bloodrose 2014-10-01 13:50:09
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Ramyrez said: »
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Cerberus.Anjisnu said: »
There have been times where me and my wife are white girl wasted and had sex without saying ***to each other with this law in place either of us could claim rape and I would go to jail

Without this law you know the situation would end the same way right? She claims rape, you're now in the hotseat.

And according to Nausi, it's your fault for poorly selecting your wife.
It's also your fault if someone breaks into your house, for waking up in the morning, for someone running a red light and crashing into you, or for being a victim of anything, really.

Except you know that whole "you're not really a victim, it's just a culture of cashing in on the victimization train" ***.
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By Ramyrez 2014-10-01 13:51:02
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Blazed1979 said: »
Ramyrez said: »
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Cerberus.Anjisnu said: »
There have been times where me and my wife are white girl wasted and had sex without saying ***to each other with this law in place either of us could claim rape and I would go to jail

Without this law you know the situation would end the same way right? She claims rape, you're now in the hotseat.

according to me, U should have made her sign a consent form.

FTFY

Not even close, but whatever.
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By Bahamut.Kara 2014-10-01 13:51:29
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
I'm not entirely sure your point, since you ignored the other half of my post and are responding to something I didn't say.

To elaborate, I am not saying female dress code should be any mitigating factor for rape, nor am I implying it's the cause.

I am saying that a drunk woman shouldn't have an instant out(especially one so damaging to the victim) for bad choices she made while under the influence of something she willingly consumed.
I used your quote as it was the most recent that I saw. I wasn't referring to only your arguments in this thread. I should have made that more clear.

Your use (and a lot of other posters use) of the phrases "dress like a ***" or "drink like a ***" doesn't exactly lend your side objectivity, since that is amazingly subjective.

However, I'm sorry if I misunderstood what you were saying.

I don't think anyone supports revenge or regret accusations. I do think that the assumption that every drunk woman is panting at the idea of being able to cry rape is seriously flawed.

Drunk women don't have an instant out here. If you think getting rape charges attached, going to trial, and getting a conviction is instant, you are mistaken
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 Cerberus.Anjisnu
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By Cerberus.Anjisnu 2014-10-01 13:52:20
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Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
This law doesn't do what people in here seem to think it does. Merely being drunk doesn't preclude consent.

Im talking both of us wondering if the other was even the one we had sex with lol that kind of wasted
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By Blazed1979 2014-10-01 13:53:19
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Bloodrose said: »
Ramyrez said: »
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Cerberus.Anjisnu said: »
There have been times where me and my wife are white girl wasted and had sex without saying ***to each other with this law in place either of us could claim rape and I would go to jail

Without this law you know the situation would end the same way right? She claims rape, you're now in the hotseat.

And according to Nausi, it's your fault for poorly selecting your wife.
It's also your fault if someone breaks into your house, for waking up in the morning, for someone running a red light and crashing into you, or for being a victim of anything, really.

Except you know that whole "you're not really a victim, it's just a culture of cashing in on the victimization train" ***.

What a load of crap. Anyone who, God Forbid, puts any responsibility on women is imminently met with a barrage of "rapist" "rapist sympathizer" accusations or called a victim basher.

Good luck Californians, if you're stupid enough to agree with this proposed law, you deserve the rape accusations.
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By Bloodrose 2014-10-01 13:53:38
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Cerberus.Anjisnu said: »
Cerberus.Pleebo said: »
This law doesn't do what people in here seem to think it does. Merely being drunk doesn't preclude consent.

Im talking both of us wondering if the other was even the one we had sex with lol that kind of wasted
"Sorry your Honor, we were white girl wasted"

"You do realize, you sodomized your mailbox, right?"
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 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2014-10-01 13:54:00
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Quote:
Congratulations you're really a saint, you'd go in there and convince the girl she's helpless to be raped by her father.
Amazing how many people are so quick to jump to 'ITS RAPE YOU CANT BLAME HER SHES A PERFECT INNOCENT ANGEL' without even considering that she had means to change the situation.

The girl is helpless the first time. I can understand why she would not want to scream and potentially invite harm or escalate the situation. However if she isn't locked in the house 24/7, she has a way to avoid a repeat incident.

If she decides that keeping her family together is more important than stopping it, she's responsible for staying in that situation.

If she's not strong enough to tell anyone, she's responsible for staying in that situation.

If she is worried about her future after reporting it, and doesn't do so as a result, she's responsible for staying in that situation.

The girl need simply tell a teacher or safe adult so that the authorities can be contacted and she'll be removed from the situation.

If she knows she can make it stop and chooses not to for fear of how her situation could change, she's essentially become a prostitute. She's trading abuse for security.

You can't fault a 10-year for being incapable of handling a situation like this, but you can't pretend that they didn't have a way out either. The belief that they have no responsibility and no way out is what lets this kind of thing last for years.

You can be in the right all you want about your behavior after you get raped, it's not going to undo the rape. Police aren't omnipotent, and until the day they are, you are the primary person in charge of your own safety.
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By Ramyrez 2014-10-01 13:56:14
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Blazed1979 said: »
Bloodrose said: »
Ramyrez said: »
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Cerberus.Anjisnu said: »
There have been times where me and my wife are white girl wasted and had sex without saying ***to each other with this law in place either of us could claim rape and I would go to jail

Without this law you know the situation would end the same way right? She claims rape, you're now in the hotseat.

And according to Nausi, it's your fault for poorly selecting your wife.
It's also your fault if someone breaks into your house, for waking up in the morning, for someone running a red light and crashing into you, or for being a victim of anything, really.

Except you know that whole "you're not really a victim, it's just a culture of cashing in on the victimization train" ***.

What a load of crap. Anyone who, God Forbid, puts any responsibility on women is imminently met with a barrage of "rapist" "rapist sympathizer" accusations or called a victim basher.

Good luck Californians, if you're stupid enough to agree with this proposed law, you deserve the rape accusations.

I'm not putting responsibility on victims of rape or any other crime; man or woman.

Criminals are responsible for their actions. Period. And should be punished as such.
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2014-10-01 13:57:31
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Ramyrez said: »
Criminals are responsible for their actions. Period. And should be punished as such.
You're not responsible if I see you flashing a wad of hundreds in the hood, put 2 in your back, and walk off with it.

You might be dead, but you're not responsible.

The only person in charge of your safety is yourself, and no matter how much you want it to be clear cut, things happen and if you'd rather prevent them instead of being the correct party after the fact, there are steps you can take.
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By Bloodrose 2014-10-01 13:57:37
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Blazed1979 said: »
Bloodrose said: »
Ramyrez said: »
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Cerberus.Anjisnu said: »
There have been times where me and my wife are white girl wasted and had sex without saying ***to each other with this law in place either of us could claim rape and I would go to jail

Without this law you know the situation would end the same way right? She claims rape, you're now in the hotseat.

And according to Nausi, it's your fault for poorly selecting your wife.
It's also your fault if someone breaks into your house, for waking up in the morning, for someone running a red light and crashing into you, or for being a victim of anything, really.

Except you know that whole "you're not really a victim, it's just a culture of cashing in on the victimization train" ***.

What a load of crap. Anyone who, God Forbid, puts any responsibility on women is imminently met with a barrage of "rapist" "rapist sympathizer" accusations or called a victim basher.

Good luck Californians, if you're stupid enough to agree with this proposed law, you deserve the rape accusations.
Saying ***like "she dressed" a certain way as a defense for violating a woman sexually without her consent, is being a rapist sympathizer.

Men actually choose rape victims based on predatory means such as perception of a weak target, which can not put up any kind of proper defense. More women are raped who dress conservatively, than those who dress provocatively, and are rarely ever the night club goers in comparison. Not what they chose to wear out in a public place full of people and security cameras.
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 Bahamut.Kara
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By Bahamut.Kara 2014-10-01 14:00:45
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Quote:
Congratulations you're really a saint, you'd go in there and convince the girl she's helpless to be raped by her father.
Amazing how many people are so quick to jump to 'ITS RAPE YOU CANT BLAME HER SHES A PERFECT INNOCENT ANGEL' without even considering that she had means to change the situation.

The girl is helpless the first time. I can understand why she would not want to scream and potentially invite harm or escalate the situation. However if she isn't locked in the house 24/7, she has a way to avoid a repeat incident.

If she decides that keeping her family together is more important than stopping it, she's responsible for staying in that situation.

If she's not strong enough to tell anyone, she's responsible for staying in that situation.

If she is worried about her future after reporting it, and doesn't do so as a result, she's responsible for staying in that situation.

The girl need simply tell a teacher or safe adult so that the authorities can be contacted and she'll be removed from the situation.

If she knows she can make it stop and chooses not to for fear of how her situation could change, she's essentially become a prostitute. She's trading abuse for security.

You can't fault a 10-year for being incapable of handling a situation like this, but you can't pretend that they didn't have a way out either. The belief that they have no responsibility and no way out is what lets this kind of thing last for years.

You can be in the right all you want about your behavior after you get raped, it's not going to undo the rape. Police aren't omnipotent, and until the day they are, you are the primary person in charge of your own safety.
Oh wow.

This is such a load of crap.
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By Ramyrez 2014-10-01 14:00:50
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Watch me deficate out of my mouth!

And I'm done with this thread. What a bunch of utter rubbish.

Blaming a 10 year old for being the victim of serial sexual abuse, even theoretically, is...I don't even have the worlds.

It's absolutely mindblowing to me that so much wrong could be in one person.

I really, really hope that you some day realize how completely asinine your statements are.
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By Blazed1979 2014-10-01 14:01:22
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Ramyrez said: »
Blazed1979 said: »
Bloodrose said: »
Ramyrez said: »
Lakshmi.Sparthosx said: »
Cerberus.Anjisnu said: »
There have been times where me and my wife are white girl wasted and had sex without saying ***to each other with this law in place either of us could claim rape and I would go to jail

Without this law you know the situation would end the same way right? She claims rape, you're now in the hotseat.

And according to Nausi, it's your fault for poorly selecting your wife.
It's also your fault if someone breaks into your house, for waking up in the morning, for someone running a red light and crashing into you, or for being a victim of anything, really.

Except you know that whole "you're not really a victim, it's just a culture of cashing in on the victimization train" ***.

What a load of crap. Anyone who, God Forbid, puts any responsibility on women is imminently met with a barrage of "rapist" "rapist sympathizer" accusations or called a victim basher.

Good luck Californians, if you're stupid enough to agree with this proposed law, you deserve the rape accusations.

I'm not putting responsibility on victims of rape or any other crime; man or woman.

Criminals are responsible for their actions. Period. And should be punished as such.

I believe in protecting women and men from crimes. I don't think a law that is uneven handed does this. I believe this law, while meant to protect women, harms many many innocent men.

I think a better law can be proposed that would serve this purpose. It would address the most common situations in which women are raped and establish criteria for sorting out the "regret" accusations from the true rape accusations.

If this law is passed, it could have the adverse effect. Law enforcement officers could be bombarded with a lot more fake rape accusations and as a result, slowly build a desensitized response to them. This has been demonstrated, documented and noted.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2014-10-01 14:02:15
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You can't fault a 10-year for being incapable of handling a situation like this, but you can't pretend that they didn't have a way out either. The belief that they have no responsibility and no way out is what lets this kind of thing last for years.

You can be in the right all you want about your behavior after you get raped, it's not going to undo the rape. Police aren't omnipotent, and until the day they are, you are the primary person in charge of your own safety.


Every statement in that post is an accurate representation of facts. It's not pretty, it's not something I expected anyone to agree with, but it's accurate. If you don't take responsibility for your own safety, don't be upset when nobody else does.
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