Tachi: Jinpu Build Inquiry

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Tachi: Jinpu Build Inquiry
 Asura.Vafruvant
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By Asura.Vafruvant 2014-07-06 18:12:43
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With these recent updates to weaponskills, Tachi: Jinpu has become a very powerful weaponskill again. This is what I currently use:
ItemSet 325649
I was wondering what to swap into for it. I was told Magic Attack Bonus as much as possible and multi-attack gear for the rest. Can anyone verify that? Also, that being said, would it be better to use Soil Gorget or Stoicheion Medal? Thanks for any responses!
 Quetzalcoatl.Valli
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By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2014-07-06 18:22:00
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I was curious about this myself, the set I made on the fly is pretty close to yours, except using the Phorcys body, obviously. MAB AND WSD. Had breeze gorget/waist as well.

Jinpu is a rather odd ws... it's the only(?) elemental ws that is more than 1 hit, AND modified by STR and not INT, MND, or CHR... I assume it's similar to Ifrit's BP? Where it's something like 1 hit physical and 1 hit magical?? It's never really been discussed since it's an lolws outside of brewing, until now.

Doing 2200 to umbrils in skirmish, and 1500 to wopket, I didn't personally know what was better, and was going to test it later, but if someone already knows, that would help alot.
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By Asura.Vafruvant 2014-07-06 18:34:20
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Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »
I was curious about this myself, the set I made on the fly is pretty close to yours, except using the Phorcys body, obviously. MAB AND WSD. Had breeze gorget/waist as well.

Jinpu is a rather odd ws... it's the only(?) elemental ws that is more than 1 hit, AND modified by STR and not INT, MND, or CHR... I assume it's similar to Ifrit's BP? Where it's something like 1 hit physical and 1 hit magical?? It's never really been discussed since it's an lolws outside of brewing, until now.

Doing 2200 to umbrils in skirmish, and 1500 to wopket, I didn't personally know what was better, and was going to test it later, but if someone already knows, that would help alot.
Yeah, I don't have Phorcys yet. Until recently, I didn't have a DD job so I never bothered to get it. From what I've read, it's almost exactly like Flaming Crush. As far as your skirmish, try Kagero since it, like all elemental WS's, got updated too. Umbrils are weak to fire so it should do very well against them.
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-07-06 18:35:16
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Umbrils are weak to Fire and Light, so Tachi: Koki should also do well.
 Asura.Vafruvant
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By Asura.Vafruvant 2014-07-06 18:40:46
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Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »
Umbrils are weak to Fire and Light, so Tachi: Koki should also do well.
I always forget about Koki...
 Quetzalcoatl.Valli
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By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2014-07-06 18:51:31
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I don't have/want to build a kagero set, was just giving you some numbers from the 2 things I actually used Jinpu on.

Though I assume aside from stacking multi-hit a kagero/jinpu/koki set would all be identical.
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By Ramuh.Austar 2014-07-06 18:52:00
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Asura.Vafruvant said: »
Bismarck.Bloodrose said: »
Umbrils are weak to Fire and Light, so Tachi: Koki should also do well.
I always forget about Koki...
How do you get drops without Koki?
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 Valefor.Prothescar
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2014-07-06 18:57:14
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On the first day, Koki bequeath unto us life.

On the second day, Koki bequeath unto us bacon.

On the third day, Koki bequeath unto us double e.body.

On the fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh day, Koki took a nap.
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By 2014-07-06 19:17:25
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 Bismarck.Bloodrose
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By Bismarck.Bloodrose 2014-07-06 19:19:07
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My Koki has a first name...
 Lakshmi.Saevel
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-07-06 19:43:58
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Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »
I was curious about this myself, the set I made on the fly is pretty close to yours, except using the Phorcys body, obviously. MAB AND WSD. Had breeze gorget/waist as well.

Jinpu is a rather odd ws... it's the only(?) elemental ws that is more than 1 hit, AND modified by STR and not INT, MND, or CHR... I assume it's similar to Ifrit's BP? Where it's something like 1 hit physical and 1 hit magical?? It's never really been discussed since it's an lolws outside of brewing, until now.

Doing 2200 to umbrils in skirmish, and 1500 to wopket, I didn't personally know what was better, and was going to test it later, but if someone already knows, that would help alot.

All of the SAM elemental WS's are that way. Koki, Jinpu, Kaggero and Goten (can't remember on this one though). Koki and Kaggero are one physical hit with that damage then being the base damage for the magical attack. Jinpu is two physical hits then whatever damage it does is the base for the magic attack.

You can test all this by using Sneak Attack, it's very noticeable what it does for all three.

I wouldn't focus too much on MAB as raising the physical damage will directly raise the magic component. The magic component is also subject to resists and day/weather bonus's.
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 Asura.Vafruvant
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By Asura.Vafruvant 2014-07-06 22:28:59
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Quote:
All of the SAM elemental WS's are that way. Koki, Jinpu, Kaggero and Goten (can't remember on this one though). Koki and Kaggero are one physical hit with that damage then being the base damage for the magical attack. Jinpu is two physical hits then whatever damage it does is the base for the magic attack.

You can test all this by using Sneak Attack, it's very noticeable what it does for all three.

I wouldn't focus too much on MAB as raising the physical damage will directly raise the magic component. The magic component is also subject to resists and day/weather bonus's.
So, would you suggest trying to maximize that initial physical damage through STR, attack and multi-attack gear and just let the MAB slide? That would make Atheling Mantle and Brutal Earring better yeah?
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By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2014-07-06 22:34:18
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It's the exact opposite for Ifrit. The physical side is worthless compared to the magical side.

That's what I was gonna see about at some point... MAB should add a static maybe... 10~ damage per MAB. Where as STR/att will add an unquantifiable amount of damage, but should be more than say, 10. (10ish being the general number for ws's like Wildfire/Aeolean edge)

Probably assume that STR > MAB except in cases where the MAB is vastly superior to the STR, such as Friomosi. For all other elemental ws the general rule is 2 stat = 1 MAB, but this has a physical hit. So then you have to wonder what's best, Moonshade/Brutal? Moonshade/Friomosi?

That's what the testing would be required for. The problem with our testing system, is it only uses the first hit of a ws, the first hit is physical, it works with sata and is 100% testable. The second hit however, is it purely magical? Can jinpu miss? I don't fully understand what Jinpu is classified as. Like Wildfire can never miss. It's purely magical.

I think that the only way to test it would be to hit something that uses invincible... and see how much damage it does with 0 MAB then add MAB, theoretically you should see static gain, as the physical aspect is negated... unless the ws does zero damage to something invincible lol... ( I honestly don't know, does it?)
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By Asura.Vafruvant 2014-07-06 23:07:25
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Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »
It's the exact opposite for Ifrit. The physical side is worthless compared to the magical side.

That's what I was gonna see about at some point... MAB should add a static maybe... 10~ damage per MAB. Where as STR/att will add an unquantifiable amount of damage, but should be more than say, 10. (10ish being the general number for ws's like Wildfire/Aeolean edge)

Probably assume that STR > MAB except in cases where the MAB is vastly superior to the STR, such as Friomosi. For all other elemental ws the general rule is 2 stat = 1 MAB, but this has a physical hit. So then you have to wonder what's best, Moonshade/Brutal? Moonshade/Friomosi?

That's what the testing would be required for. The problem with our testing system, is it only uses the first hit of a ws, the first hit is physical, it works with sata and is 100% testable. The second hit however, is it purely magical? Can jinpu miss? I don't fully understand what Jinpu is classified as. Like Wildfire can never miss. It's purely magical.

I think that the only way to test it would be to hit something that uses invincible... and see how much damage it does with 0 MAB then add MAB, theoretically you should see static gain, as the physical aspect is negated... unless the ws does zero damage to something invincible lol... ( I honestly don't know, does it?)
I know when Ifrit uses Flaming Crush against something with Invincible on, it still does damage, but it's miniscule at best. I don't remember ever hitting Jinpu on anything while it was Invincible, rather just saving my TP for a really big WS once it wore off. I might be able to get a buddy to test it in Brenner with me sometime this weekend, if we don't find out before then.
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By Valefor.Prothescar 2014-07-06 23:08:44
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Hybrid attacks deal equal magic damage to the amount of physical damage dealt (unsure how magic damage+ is associated, I'd imagine it comes afterward, i.e. is added on to the magical portion after the physical portion has dictated base damage). Where things get interesting is thus: magic attack bonus multiplies the damage done by the magic "doppelganger", but obviously not the physical half.

Jinpu's physical parameters start off pretty horrendously. 30% STR, 0.5fTP @ 1000 and 1.0fTP @ 3000 (+1 for each additional hit). Each point of STR that you add has significantly less weight than nearly any other weaponskill that SAM has access to. Multiattack would provide the biggest gains to Jinpu since it effectively has a double effect: the physical side's damage is increased relatively substantially, and that is mirrored on the magical side. If you double attacked on every Jinpu, that'd be great. But you don't.

Magic Attack Bonus serves to increase the damage by the most in next to every slot that SAM can equip it. It multiplies the easiest to amplify half of Jinpu's damage. It's the same case as SMN's hybrid BPs (most notably Flaming Crush), however SMN gets an absolutely massive amount of MAB for their avatar whereas SAM gets maybe 30 in total across all slots.

Jinpu isn't very good all in all, it's not really very good on any type of target due to the fact that it relies on physical damage to deal its magical portion, meaning it isn't very good for physically resistant but magic weak things which is the only time you'd stop using Fudo/Shoha to begin with. Add in the fact that its only skillchain properties are Lv1 and how much of SAM's damage is now made up of SCs and well, yeah. Post-WS update, you'd actually be pretty shocked at how small the potential damage disparity between Kagero, Goten, and Jinpu is. I need to math it later and actually see how they compare by-the-numbers, Jinpu's got the extra hit but Kagero gets over double the base damage from STR that Jinpu does to begin with, although that extra hit that Jinpu gets also prevents it from having its base damage reduced so it probably isn't as much of a contest as I'm making it out to be.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-07-07 04:37:13
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Did SE change anything with those WS's in the last WS update? I remember Jinpu being really good pre-60 but once SAM got Yuki it was no contest. Could probably pair it with a Breeze or Soil Gorget/Belt to raise it's initial ftp from 1.5 (it's two hits, only the first has the 0.5 value) to 1.7. If it's WSC is still 30% STR then it would be beneficial to add attack, MA and then MAB on slots that don't give large amounts of attack. But even then I think it would be weaker then YGK and significantly weaker then Shoha and Fudo.

It's kind of like Tachi: Enpi and Sturmwind, really good when you get it but eventually outclassed by better options. Or am I the only one who remembers having to actually XP on things your same level?
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By Quetzalcoatl.Valli 2014-07-07 05:50:05
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I recall using enpi until changing to a spear and pentathrusting. 99% of the time we were skillchaining and enpi sc's with everything. We (I?) wasn't really an efficiency machine like now, 100 years ago it was still some semblance of fun.

Pretty sure I NEVER used jinpu, except people want to use it on wopket to break the aura... It's a limited use kinda deal, and if you just do it in tp gear it does like 300 damage.. not even worth using.

(I know.) Believe me, I know.
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By Asura.Vafruvant 2014-07-07 07:12:44
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Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »
I recall using enpi until changing to a spear and pentathrusting. 99% of the time we were skillchaining and enpi sc's with everything. We (I?) wasn't really an efficiency machine like now, 100 years ago it was still some semblance of fun.

Pretty sure I NEVER used jinpu, except people want to use it on wopket to break the aura... It's a limited use kinda deal, and if you just do it in tp gear it does like 300 damage.. not even worth using.

(I know.) Believe me, I know.
The aura is the primary reason this was brought up altogether. A lot of the groups I've seen doing Wopket require SAMs to have a Jinpu build. Now, people have argued that just having a decent SCH to MB off Light SC will break the aura faster than Jinpus, plus dealing more WS damage in the process. I just wanted to be prepared to do both as the party mandates.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-07-07 07:58:29
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Quetzalcoatl.Valli said: »
I recall using enpi until changing to a spear and pentathrusting. 99% of the time we were skillchaining and enpi sc's with everything. We (I?) wasn't really an efficiency machine like now, 100 years ago it was still some semblance of fun.

Pretty sure I NEVER used jinpu, except people want to use it on wopket to break the aura... It's a limited use kinda deal, and if you just do it in tp gear it does like 300 damage.. not even worth using.

(I know.) Believe me, I know.

Lol back at level 50 when we were fighting crabs and SCing and sh!t, Jinpu or TE is what was used. Until ToAU was released and XP got super easy. Penta spam lasted a very short period of time before that since SE fixed the TP return on multi-hit WS's.

Edit:

Ok just got done digging through BG forums and Studio Gobi, looks like no one's tested the new fTP values for the pre-60 SAM WS's. The values listed here are based on the old pre-update ones (0.5/0.75/1.0) and SE said they were raising the TP modifier at 2000 and 3000 TP.

So who wants to run around killing level 1 bunnies with SAM Treasure Hunter?
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By Zoltar 2014-07-07 10:18:56
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I know Phorcys has MAB, but you know that Jinpu won't get the +ws damage, right? Is Phorcys still best?
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By Asura.Failaras 2014-07-07 19:19:59
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So after the WS changes, how is Goten for breaking the shield on Dakuwaqa? Has anyone tried it? Do you use MAB sets? Would be nice if I could break it with 1 or 2 WSes instead of relying on Mnks with Sulpor.
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By Odin.Llewelyn 2014-07-07 19:22:22
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I think the aura is # of attacks dealt and not total damage or something. I've thrown out Thunder 3/4/5 on it before and it didn't knock aura off.
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By Asura.Failaras 2014-07-07 19:24:48
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Oh, well that makes me sad. Probably why Light SCing doesn't work either.
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By Lakshmi.Saevel 2014-07-09 06:47:11
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The closest I've come so far is that it's a random chance every time you hit it with thunder damage, same with Tojil and Bee. It's why /RUN works so well on MNK's.
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