Random Politics & Religion #00

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Random Politics & Religion #00
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 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-05-23 21:30:40
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Odin.Jassik said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
No, I wouldn't be one bit less hard on him. What he did isn't something you can apologize for, say some hail mary's, and pretend never happened. Not only should he have been in prison, he should have to register as a sex offender and pay for the decades of therapy those children need.

Well yeah, he should have the full force of the law brought upon him for what he did. The article left the actual offense, the age of the children, and his punishment out of it, hence why I thought you guys were overreacting. I haven't found that info yet.

From the sound of the information available, whatever his punishment, it was lessened extensively.

Okay, so you don't even have all the details and you're judging him to the max. I'm not in the business of condemning 15-year-olds for life for the stupid crap that they pull, but if it suits your cause then go for it.

Molesting children is the manifestation of serious psychological problems. You make it sound like he borrowed his dad's car without asking.

Considering in most states sexual assault of a minor carries penalties of 10-25 years MINIMUM, no, I don't think he served an appropriate sentence.

So a 15-year-old with psychological problems should serve 10-25+ years in prison after confessing and seeking help? Sounds legit.
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By Anna Ruthven 2015-05-23 21:31:36
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
No, I wouldn't be one bit less hard on him. What he did isn't something you can apologize for, say some hail mary's, and pretend never happened. Not only should he have been in prison, he should have to register as a sex offender and pay for the decades of therapy those children need.

Well yeah, he should have the full force of the law brought upon him for what he did. The article left the actual offense, the age of the children, and his punishment out of it, hence why I thought you guys were overreacting. I haven't found that info yet.
He was "given a stern talking to" by the county sheriff and sent off to help build houses for charity apparently, whether or not he received rehabilitation, I haven't heard.

EDIT: I don't have an online source to cite for this information.
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By Bahamut.Omael 2015-05-23 21:35:24
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Intouchweekly? Ugh. I really wish there was a better source for any of this.
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By Anna Ruthven 2015-05-23 21:45:15
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Bahamut.Omael said: »
Intouchweekly? Ugh. I really wish there was a better source for any of this.
So the trooper (not sheriff) is in prison now for child pornography? >.>

Also, I can't shake the opinion that the dad (and church elders) should be in deep ***too for not reporting this.
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 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-05-23 21:50:39
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Bahamut.Omael said: »
Intouchweekly? Ugh. I really wish there was a better source for any of this.

Well, it's something at least. It clarifies that Josh was actually just barely 14 for the first offense, but continued with the behavior for a number of months. It also seems to suggest that the girls were probably around his age. It's still awful, but it's not like he was an adult molesting young children. I'd say the biggest source of outrage should be more directed at the father and his church for taking so long to inform the police.

Edit:
Anna Ruthven said: »
Also, I can't shake the opinion that the dad (and church elders) should be in deep ***too for not reporting this.

You beat me to it.
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By Anna Ruthven 2015-05-23 21:53:37
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Bahamut.Omael said: »
Intouchweekly? Ugh. I really wish there was a better source for any of this.

Well, it's something at least. It clarifies that Josh was actually just barely 14 for the first offense, but continued with the behavior for a number of months. It also seems to suggest that the girls were probably around his age. It's still awful, but it's not like he was an adult molesting young children. I'd say the biggest source of outrage should be more directed at the father and his church for taking so long to inform the police.
I actually agree with the last part; the dad should've gotten him some help, home improvement is a DIY job, counseling someone with serious issues isn't.

Also, I think at least one of the victims was 4-years-old.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-05-23 21:55:07
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Where are you seeing the age of the victim?
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By Anna Ruthven 2015-05-23 21:57:38
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Where are you seeing the age of the victim?
It was secondhand info, I admit, so was the above post which I had no source for. That turned out true though. Lol

I think the ages are being withheld because you can literally just go down the line of kids and figure out who the victims were.
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-05-23 22:07:55
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
No, I wouldn't be one bit less hard on him. What he did isn't something you can apologize for, say some hail mary's, and pretend never happened. Not only should he have been in prison, he should have to register as a sex offender and pay for the decades of therapy those children need.

Well yeah, he should have the full force of the law brought upon him for what he did. The article left the actual offense, the age of the children, and his punishment out of it, hence why I thought you guys were overreacting. I haven't found that info yet.

From the sound of the information available, whatever his punishment, it was lessened extensively.

Okay, so you don't even have all the details and you're judging him to the max. I'm not in the business of condemning 15-year-olds for life for the stupid crap that they pull, but if it suits your cause then go for it.

Molesting children is the manifestation of serious psychological problems. You make it sound like he borrowed his dad's car without asking.

Considering in most states sexual assault of a minor carries penalties of 10-25 years MINIMUM, no, I don't think he served an appropriate sentence.

So a 15-year-old with psychological problems should serve 10-25+ years in prison after confessing and seeking help? Sounds legit.

I think you'd agree there is a very large difference between community service and a decade in prison. No, I don't think a 15 year old should go to prison for 25 years, but the way it was hidden and the punishment he received were grossly unjust and hiding that illness could have and may have resulted in further victims, including his own kids.
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 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-05-23 22:21:05
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Odin.Jassik said: »
I think you'd agree there is a very large difference between community service and a decade in prison. No, I don't think a 15 year old should go to prison for 25 years, but the way it was hidden and the punishment he received were grossly unjust and hiding that illness could have and may have resulted in further victims, including his own kids.

Now that's a reasonable response. Kudos.
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By Valefor.Applebottoms 2015-05-23 22:22:50
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I stand by what I said. Not judgemental when he admitted what he did.

I'm off to bed, can't wait to see where this goes tomorrow.

Edit real quick: reports said one of the victims was as young as 4. Take that what you will.
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By Enuyasha 2015-05-24 07:05:17
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Honestly, First time underage sex with a person of similar age, its sexuality. Continued predation after first encounter of younger persons, including ones own family, is the start of a rapist or molester and anyone that hid the fact that he pretty much molested his sisters should be held to the law as an accomplice to the crime.

I figured there was something *** with that family though, who in their right minds would want 19 children...I mean, 6 is like fringe for modern families, but if you say you absolutely want more than 6, id have to call you some kind of insane.
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-05-24 09:05:12
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Enuyasha said: »
I figured there was something *** with that family though, who in their right minds would want 19 children...I mean, 6 is like fringe for modern families, but if you say you absolutely want more than 6, id have to call you some kind of insane.

Not to mention the difficulty in actually parenting that many kids. It's bad when you have so many kids you can't even keep them from sexually assaulting each other.
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 Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2015-05-24 09:17:33
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Josh Duggar Records Destroyed By Arkansas Police At Judge's Request
HuffPo

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Police in Arkansas have destroyed records detailing the investigation into sexual abuse allegations against TLC's "19 Kids and Counting" star Josh Duggar.

“The judge ordered us yesterday to expunge that record,” Springdale Police spokesman Scott Lewis told The Associated Press on Friday. "As far as the Springdale Police Department is concerned this report doesn't exist."

Lewis also told the AP that these types of records are usually kept indefinitely.

A 2006 police report, which was obtained by In Touch before its destruction, indicates that family patriarch Jim Bob Duggar knew as early as 2002 that Josh Duggar -- who was 14 at the time -- was accused of sexually abusing an underage girl. The teen was ultimately accused of inappropriately touching five underage girls, some of whom were his sisters, between 2002 and 2003.

Police did not find out about the allegations until 2006, when they were tipped off to a letter discussing the incidents, the AP reports. A family friend had lent another person a book, and the letter was stuck inside.

The police report obtained by In Touch indicates Michelle and Jim Bob Duggar told police in 2006 that they had disciplined their son themselves.

The couple allegedly said that they sent Josh Duggar to a “Christian program” that “consisted of physical hard work and counseling.” Michelle Duggar later admitted that they actually just sent him to live with a family friend to help with a home remodeling business, according to In Touch.

Both Josh Duggar, now 27, and his parents acknowledged the incidents and publicly apologized in Facebook posts on Thursday.

TLC pulled all airings of “19 Kids and Counting” from its lineup the day after Duggar admitted the allegations were true.

Republican presidential candidate Mike Huckabee voiced his support for the judge’s decision to destroy the records in a Facebook post Friday. “There was no consideration of the fact that the victims wanted this to be left in the past and ultimately a judge had the information on file destroyed -- not to protect Josh, but the innocent victims,” Huckabee wrote.

The Duggar family has “a long and active history of political advocacy for social conservative causes,” CNN noted. Josh Duggar resigned from his position at the Family Research Council, a conservative Christian group and lobbying organization, on Thursday. According to the AP, Duggar was previously “a public face” of the group.
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By Anna Ruthven 2015-05-24 09:26:06
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Odin.Jassik said: »
Enuyasha said: »
I figured there was something *** with that family though, who in their right minds would want 19 children...I mean, 6 is like fringe for modern families, but if you say you absolutely want more than 6, id have to call you some kind of insane.

Not to mention the difficulty in actually parenting that many kids. It's bad when you have so many kids you can't even keep them from sexually assaulting each other.
They assign the older kids to help care for and parent the younger kids which is probably how this whole situation came about.

I wonder how long until the girls come out and say they lied or something just to save face for the guy.
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 Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2015-05-24 13:33:26
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Enuyasha said: »
....
I figured there was something *** with that family though, who in their right minds would want 19 children....
They aren't in their right minds.

They are quiverfull Christians.

Also: What Is Quiverfull? Here’s a look inside the Duggars’ dangerous Christian cult

TLDR: God will do our family planing.

Also they are raising warriors for Christ.
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 Asura.Ivlilla
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By Asura.Ivlilla 2015-05-24 13:55:05
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Garuda.Chanti said: »
Enuyasha said: »
....
I figured there was something *** with that family though, who in their right minds would want 19 children....
They aren't in their right minds.

They are quiverfull Christians.

Also: What Is Quiverfull? Here’s a look inside the Duggars’ dangerous Christian cult

TLDR: God will do our family planing.

Also they are raising warriors for Christ.

And what they are doing is highly effective, and I both laugh inside and weep when I think about how they're going to be running the country in 50 years.

The people who think that things like abortion, gay marriage, gays having civil rights in general, most of modern science, etc, are correct and should be legal are having significantly fewer children than the people who don't. And children tend to inherit their parents' political beliefs.

So while the educated liberal population has subreplacement birth rates, the "ignorant hillbilly rightwing idiots" are outbreeding them by 5x to 10x. Which means that that political view point will come to dominate among those two populations in the near future.

I remember hearing from a Jewish coworker that there's a similar problem in Israel wherein the ultraconservative orthodox families have far more children than the rest of the population and it's causing a gradual shift in the political climate.

This literally is evolution in action. Liberals are breeding themselves out of existence.
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By Asura.Ivlilla 2015-05-24 14:01:58
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Also, calling them a cult when they're doing more to actually do what god told them to do than most Christians ("Be fruitful and multiply" is one of the earliest commandments) is kind of amusing. It's always a "cult" when we don't like it.
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-05-24 14:49:26
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Asura.Ivlilla said: »
Also, calling them a cult when they're doing more to actually do what god told them to do than most Christians ("Be fruitful and multiply" is one of the earliest commandments) is kind of amusing. It's always a "cult" when we don't like it.

Cult - a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.

They are a cult, and pretending that living your life by literal interpretation of a 2500 year old defunct book isn't strange?

What if they were a similarly devout small group of literalist Muslims or Buddhists?
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By Phoenix.Xantavia 2015-05-24 15:09:24
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Odin.Jassik said: »
Asura.Ivlilla said: »
Also, calling them a cult when they're doing more to actually do what god told them to do than most Christians ("Be fruitful and multiply" is one of the earliest commandments) is kind of amusing. It's always a "cult" when we don't like it.

Cult - a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.

They are a cult, and pretending that living your life by literal interpretation of a 2500 year old defunct book isn't strange?

What if they were a similarly devout small group of literalist Muslims or Buddhists?
THAT would be a cult, of course, since they picked the wrong religion.
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 Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2015-05-24 15:10:13
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Is the isolated part that makes them cultish.

But they aren't as tightly organized as cults usually are.

Edit: After the family unit it is totally decentralized save for small nodes on their social networks.
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-05-24 15:25:05
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I think the Duggars are weird, but us P&R regulars are probably the wrong group of people to be giving them crap for being weird.
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 Odin.Jassik
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-05-24 15:31:59
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
I think the Duggars are weird, but us P&R regulars are probably the wrong group of people to be giving them crap for being weird.

I don't give them crap because they're weird, but because they protected a child molester instead of their victims.
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 Bahamut.Ravael
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By Bahamut.Ravael 2015-05-24 15:41:05
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Odin.Jassik said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
I think the Duggars are weird, but us P&R regulars are probably the wrong group of people to be giving them crap for being weird.

I don't give them crap because they're weird, but because they protected a child molester instead of their victims.

Should they have gone to the authorities immediately? Yes. I'd just hope that if you were ever in the same situation you would be ready and willing to march your 14-year-old down to the police station without hesitation.
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By Odin.Jassik 2015-05-24 15:54:34
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Bahamut.Ravael said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Bahamut.Ravael said: »
I think the Duggars are weird, but us P&R regulars are probably the wrong group of people to be giving them crap for being weird.

I don't give them crap because they're weird, but because they protected a child molester instead of their victims.

Should they have gone to the authorities immediately? Yes. I'd just hope that if you were ever in the same situation you would be ready and willing to march your 14-year-old down to the police station without hesitation.

With or without hesitation, it needed to be done, to get him and his victims the help they need. Don't try to lay on the "walk in his shoes" sentiment, it's irrelevant.
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By Asura.Ivlilla 2015-05-24 16:59:23
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Phoenix.Xantavia said: »
Odin.Jassik said: »
Asura.Ivlilla said: »
Also, calling them a cult when they're doing more to actually do what god told them to do than most Christians ("Be fruitful and multiply" is one of the earliest commandments) is kind of amusing. It's always a "cult" when we don't like it.

Cult - a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.

They are a cult, and pretending that living your life by literal interpretation of a 2500 year old defunct book isn't strange?

What if they were a similarly devout small group of literalist Muslims or Buddhists?
THAT would be a cult, of course, since they picked the wrong religion.


Well, yeah. If make Buddhism into a religion you are de facto doing it wrong.
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 Asura.Kingnobody
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By Asura.Kingnobody 2015-05-24 16:59:47
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If a group of people who don't agree with me are considered a cult, can I consider the liberals/democrats the world's largest cult?

Don't drink the koolaid people, or do!
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 Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2015-05-24 17:43:39
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Asura.Ivlilla said: »
....
Well, yeah. If make Buddhism into a religion you are de facto doing it wrong.
I know a cult that does that!
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By Bahamut.Omael 2015-05-24 19:43:42
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Cults, you say?

YouTube Video Placeholder
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 Garuda.Chanti
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By Garuda.Chanti 2015-05-24 21:36:30
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And back on the Iraq track....

Carter: Iraqis showed 'no will to fight' in Ramadi

Quote:
Washington (CNN)Defense Secretary Ash Carter, in his first comments since the key town of Ramadi fell to ISIS, blamed the weak state of Iraq's military as one major reason for the city's fall, in an exclusive interview on CNN's "State of the Union" aired Sunday.

"What apparently happened was that the Iraqi forces just showed no will to fight," Carter told CNN's Barbara Starr. "They were not outnumbered. In fact, they vastly outnumbered the opposing force, and yet they failed to fight, they withdrew from the site, and that says to me, and I think to most of us, that we have an issue with the will of the Iraqis to fight ISIL and defend themselves."
....
And Lots more

Ramadi fell to 400 ISIS fighters....

400....

If we send them weapons they will, and have, abandoned them letting them fall into the hands of ISIS.

But hey there is hope yet! After all, Paul Wolfowitz is Jeb's foremost adviser on middle eastern affairs. Well, perhaps right behind W.

King, if Jeb is the candidate will you vote for him?
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