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Job Points
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By Sieha1 2014-03-17 16:14:18
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So since I didnt see another thread for this... yet, I made one.

So whats all the jobs points? Yay or Nay?
 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2014-03-17 16:15:45
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Some good, some bad.
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By Cerberus.Tidis 2014-03-17 16:16:32
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For the most part they're a bit meh but there's room to expand on job points so more to come.

WAR, BLU and COR have pretty good job points from the ones I looked at.
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By Leviathan.Krysten 2014-03-17 16:28:10
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PUP job points is worthless, what is 10 hp going to do for automation?
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By Sieha1 2014-03-17 16:32:20
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and capacity points are not 1:1 for exp right?
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By Leoheart 2014-03-17 16:33:46
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Sieha1 said: »
and capacity points are not 1:1 for exp right?

Significantly lower gain compared to experience
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By Bismarck.Aselin 2014-03-17 16:34:23
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Sieha1 said: »
and capacity points are not 1:1 for exp right?
Not 1:1.

An LS mate got 121 CP from 1100 XP.

It seems to be a set scale because 89 CP is both 300 and 400 EXP.

Someone will probably figure out the math behind it.
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By Phoenix.Baelorn 2014-03-17 16:36:40
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The majority of them are beyond useless. Even the good ones aren't worth the insane level of grinding required though.
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By Sieha1 2014-03-17 16:37:59
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Phoenix.Baelorn said: »
The majority of them are beyond useless. Even the good ones aren't worth the insane level of grinding required though.

Great, I will ignore it then.
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By Shiva.Onorgul 2014-03-17 16:41:01
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Nice job, SE. Release something that is about 94% useless, make it super-grindy, and limit where the grinding can be done. Even if people are still knocking out tons of merit points for Ark Angels, Divine Might, and the like, the low rate of gain means that one might get, what, 1 Job Point in the same time it takes to get 20 Merit Points? Didn't imagine that they would go back to 2005 levels of failure, but I guess some people don't know when to stop digging.
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By Leviathan.Krysten 2014-03-17 16:44:48
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yeah it was reason i staying in this game guess i have the final nail.
SE seems to have a knack of making something that has potential to be awesome into total fail
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By Moonwalkerv 2014-03-17 16:44:55
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My take is, if the two hour for the job is good, this stuff makes it a little better.


But yeah, i dont see a worth while pay off for the grinding you will have to do.
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By Sieha1 2014-03-17 16:47:48
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like upgrading skirmish gear. well I had some hopes that this would be interesting but guess not.
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By Crevox 2014-03-18 04:33:07
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http://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Job_Points

Every job gets a buff to their 1 hour and then something random I guess. That random thing could be really good or it could be useless.

It's pretty disappointing. With only two options per job, it's pretty lame. A lot of jobs won't even feel it at all (SMN).
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By Odin.Tuis 2014-03-18 04:51:45
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Extra blue magic points on BLU is pretty nice.
 
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By Leviathan.Kincard 2014-03-18 06:03:01
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I can't help but think that the grindiness is partially due to people constantly complaining that they run out of things to do. Not defending it or anything though. Lineage II style grinding ahoy.

I don't think the upgrades are too bad when you look at them on their own. Most of them are useful in some way as opposed to stuff like putting subtle blow on Swordplay and similar things where it'd literally get 0 use. Even "meh" ones like Acc on HF arn't amazing but let you gear a bit more aggressively, taking 10% less damage from a certain monster type would be a huge boon in those cases etc. It's pretty lopsided though, some jobs made it out better than others- nothing new, really.
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By Asura.Aikchan 2014-03-18 06:04:05
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They already said that will be adding more things to "merit"... Just save point for those
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2014-03-18 06:26:50
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Leviathan.Kincard said: »
I can't help but think that the grindiness is partially due to people constantly complaining that they run out of things to do. Not defending it or anything though. Lineage II style grinding ahoy.


Welcome to FFXI, idk any FFXI player find grinding unacceptable after 12 years of grind ;)
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By Bismarck.Leneth 2014-03-18 06:39:54
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From what I have seen is that mostly every job has got at least 1 decent improvement, BRD and PLD seem to be the only ones who are really bad.
And a few jobs got even 2 worthy upgrades if the player knows how to create and use the situations like SMN.

All in all no game changer, but usefull.
Not usefull enough to actually grind it at the current rates, but good enough to get additionally to your normal activites.
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By Leviathan.Kincard 2014-03-18 06:50:23
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Bismarck.Leneth said: »
Not usefull enough to actually grind it at the current rates, but good enough to get additionally to your normal activites.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I'm going to treat it- just "bonus" points I get on top of something I'd normally do since there's no must-have upgrades. Maybe that was even the intent, but in that case the 300-point storing limit makes no sense (in b4 that's how many you need to level 29->30).

Ragnarok.Afania said: »
Welcome to FFXI, idk any FFXI player find grinding unacceptable after 12 years of grind ;)

I know your default attitude is to support anything that makes the game more tedious while disguising it as "epic", but this isn't really case of exclusivity and just a way of wasting time.

IMO if they just didn't want people to grind it out in one day, they should do something like a weekly limit or limit CP to only being gained in chunk amounts when you beat a battlefield etc. I know it gets a lot of hate in XIV, but I'd actually prefer that to them asking players to spend hours of their life on anti-fun.
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By Gilgamesh.Kovalev 2014-03-18 09:22:14
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Unfortunately this is nowhere near the merit point system but it still adds some more possibilities for character improvements. I don't have all jobs to 99 but BST seems like it's getting one of the bigger boost since familiar lasts for 30~ mins. 10/10 giving +30 to all pet attributes.
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2014-03-18 09:37:22
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Leviathan.Kincard said: »
I know your default attitude is to support anything that makes the game more tedious while disguising it as "epic", but this isn't really case of exclusivity and just a way of wasting time.

Nice way to defend for your own argument by putting words in my mouth.

I mentioned no word about "epic",just realistically pointed out that's how this game(and MMO in general) works for past 12 years- there are no other ways to keep players subbed in a PVE focused MMO with SE's development speed.

You did say FFXIV weekly limit system got a lot of hate, by logic that's just as bad, even you admitted it by saying it got a lot of hate. If it's good nobody would complain. Paying monthly fee in XIV and only play 1~2 days a week due to hitting the limit is just a way to waste money...you're paying and not really have anything do in game. But you still need to keep paying for next week's coil or myth grind.

Unless you can convince me that wasting money is a better design than wasting time, or come up with a better solution to keep players busy, I fail to see how this is as bad as you claim.

Personally, having to pay monthly fee and only get to play 1~2 days a week was part of the reason I cancelled ARR account. IMO, it's just as bad because they did lose sub due to weekly limit.
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-03-18 09:37:47
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I feel like blue mage, corsair, ranger and warrior all got decent benefits. All the jobs with (whatever) circle effects (samurai, dark knight, paladin, etc.) got boned.

And the level of grindicity (it's a word, who says it's not!?) is staggering.

Some good boosts, some worthless boosts, but overall I give it a failing grade until/unless they adjust the rate of gain. Especially considering the requirement to be on that job whilst gaining the points.
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By Asura.Ivykyori 2014-03-18 09:41:18
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I haven't been in game since the patch since I spent the night reinstalling XI on the new laptop, but I may have drooled a little when I saw that BLU can have more points in blue magic setting.
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By Leviathan.Syagin 2014-03-18 09:54:22
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I know i surely appreciate the THF points
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By Leviathan.Kincard 2014-03-18 10:21:57
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Ragnarok.Afania said: »
Nice way to defend for your own argument by putting words in my mouth.

If I'm putting words in your mouth they're only slightly different than a stance you've made clear on multiple occasions. You've gone on record many, many times saying that you in some like the tedium because that's part of the design in one way or another. But I'm not here to antagonize you for what you believe overall, because I don't completely disagree with the general thrust of what you believe- I was merely pointing it out because you adamantly stick to it way too much at times and this is one such case.

Ragnarok.Afania said: »
You did say FFXIV weekly cap system got a lot of hate, by logic that's just as bad, even you admitted it by saying it got a lot of hate. If it's good nobody would complain. Paying monthly fee in XIV and only play 1~2 days a week due to hitting cap is just a way to waste money...you're paying and not really have anything do in game. But you still need to keep paying for next week's coil or myth grind.

Unless you can convince me that wasting money is a better design than wasting time, or come up with a better solution to keep players busy, I fail to see how this is as bad as you claim.

The problem isn't that grind exists, obviously there's going to be grind, it doesn't even need the MMO part of the genre to have that be a staple. It's that sticking in grinding local wildlife is a lazy way to "fix" that problem and you should know this given that you've played many MMOs. Having it be at a snail's pace even moreso, that's just dimestore MMO ***that should stay there, especially because a better way of doing it was right there, which I pointed out; just make it a special point system doled out by completing lv. 99 battlefields/events around the game. You can have it be at a snail's pace if that milks your guernsey, but at least I'm actually playing the game while I'm doing it instead of mindlessly grinding monsters.

Basically, XIV's system gets ***because it's putting a limit on stuff people want to do more of. The current JP system is getting ***because it's way too much of something people don't want to do a lot of (Even if you love meripos the grind here is still pretty ridiculous). XI is also unlike XIV where when you finish grinding a weekly limit there's like 3 other weekly/daily limit things you can still do, so applying the same design here wouldn't even carry the same downsides.

Quote:
Personally, having to pay monthly fee and only get to play 1~2 days a week was half the reason I cancelled ARR account. IMO, it's just as bad because they did lose sub due to weekly cap.

I don't know if I'm the weird one, but I don't think getting 1-2 days of play a week out of a game for $15 a month is in any way a bad deal. I mean, I've played games like Braid that cost about that much and play for like 2 hours the first time through and I think they're worth the money.

Actually, since we're talking about XIV anyway- did you grind your Chocobo to Rank 10 in that game?
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By Ragnarok.Afania 2014-03-18 11:15:17
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Leviathan.Kincard said: »

If I'm putting words in your mouth they're only slightly different than a stance you've made clear on multiple occasions. You've gone on record many, many times saying that you in some like the tedium because that's part of the design in one way or another.


I don't blindly support every design in FFXI, hell I don't even really play FFXI anymore, mostly because I don't support their gear design direction after SoA(except I don't put words in others mouth if they still enjoying current SoA). I just don't see there's that much "wrong" in tons of grind with JP. From what I've seen, it seems to be optional, at least with the intend to be optional, something for players to do while not doing event.

There are certain stance I've made because there are directions I think is right, but not because I want the game to be "boring", but because I look at the entire game from another POV. Grinding is boring, I agree. But if I look at JP system from "just a nice optional bonus to keep players busy for months" POV, then being "boring" no longer matter that much, because there are more important matters. I don't think I've ever defend for a design decision because I think it's "epic", most of the time I defend for a design decision from long term goal/MMO sustainability and virtual community building POV. If a design can meet the above criteria AND fun, by all means I'll support it. The problem is design like that doesn't exist.

There are plenty of grind in FFXI I choose not to do if I don't like them. I don't grind for afterglow, I don't grind useful jobs, I don't grind many important gears, They're all optional, just something I don't enjoy doing. But I do support designs like afterglow, so players enjoy grinding and wasting their time have something to do.

My preference about the game does not matter, the design goal matters. If I don't like certain aspect of the game but still like the whole game enough to keep playing, I just don't do what I don't like.

If I'm going to fight against every design because certain player dislike them, then it will never end, since no game can please everyone. Again, if you want to convince me grind is terrible and a lazy solution in MMO game design, come up with a way to meet the design goal of keeping players busy and having social hierarchy in game without relying on grind.



Leviathan.Kincard said: »

The problem isn't that grind exists, obviously there's going to be grind, it doesn't even need the MMO part of the genre to have that be a staple. It's that sticking in grinding local wildlife is a lazy way to "fix" that problem and you should know this given that you've played many MMOs. Having it be at a snail's pace even moreso, that's just dimestore MMO ***that should stay there, especially because a better way of doing it was right there, which I pointed out; just make it a special point system doled out by completing lv. 99 battlefields/events around the game.


AFAIK, there are several ways to keep players around in MMO:

1. Grind.

2. Meaningful PVP with depths

3. Sandbox

4. Let players beat content like single player game and produce content as fast as players beating single player games.

In the case of FFXI, 2, 3, 4 is out. Maybe I'm missing something, feel free to point out a better way to keep players around, I'll post on official forum for you if you have better ideas.

No, "just make it a special point system doled out by completing lv. 99 battlefields/events around the game" doesn't work. Players either gonna beat battlefields/events like single player game and finish JP in one sitting, or the dev have to force players to do same battlefields for 20 times until everything's done. IMO, being forced to do same damn battle field for 20 times is just as boring.

Also, by your logic, if doing same battle field for 20 times isn't boring, you may as well suggest SE to hand out EXP by doing battle field and keep the same design. The difference is players at least get to choose how to obtain the points.

Leviathan.Kincard said: »
Basically, XIV's system gets ***because it's putting a limit on stuff people want to do more of. The current JP system is getting ***because it's way too much of something people don't want to do a lot of

It's way too much of something people don't want to do a lot of, because the there are limited ways to get them efficiently, and it's getting old. The length of the grind isn't the issue, the method is. Then the right way to fix it is to find the right method, not to remove grind completely.


Leviathan.Kincard said: »
I don't know if I'm the weird one, but I don't think getting 1-2 days of play a week out of a game for $15 a month is in any way a bad deal. I mean, I've played games like Braid that cost about that much and play for like 2 hours the first time through and I think they're worth the money.

Actually, since we're talking about XIV anyway- did you grind your Chocobo to Rank 10 in that game?


It depend on whether I want the content or not. Braid is worth the money because it's one of a kind, you can't play it anywhere else, you only have to pay once and you can keep replaying it as many times as you like. So yes, I'm willing to pay $15 for a 2hr single player game if I think the experience of that 2hr is worth it. It's not like I have to pay $15 every month for 2hr playtime a month.

In ARR I have to pay EVERY MONTH if I want to join a coil static or something like that, but really only get to play nothing but coil, IMO that's a pretty cheap way to steal my sub money.

And no, I don't grind my chocobo to rank 10 in ARR, cuz I'm not interested in it, like how I'm not interested in grinding afterglow in XI. But I support them, because someone else may want to grind them.
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By Bismarck.Ramyrez 2014-03-18 11:20:08
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Asura.Ivykyori said: »
I haven't been in game since the patch since I spent the night reinstalling XI on the new laptop, but I may have drooled a little when I saw that BLU can have more points in blue magic setting.

IMO in terms of usefulness and ease-of-play stuff, blue mage really wins this round, followed by corsair.
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By Bunsies 2014-03-18 11:48:36
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Trance changes are interesting enough for me to want to get one point in it, maybe more if the TP return remains high per point. I rarely use Trance though so it's not exactly something I'll rush to get.

Step changes... I really need to see what "+1" equates to. If it just adds 1 second to the total duration of a daze, then given that steps are on a 15 second cool down 10 points is going to make almost no functional difference on a daze that needs to be maintained at level 5.

So potentially an awful lot of grind for not a lot of return. I think that's the biggest issue that some (although certainly not all) jobs will have with the system as it is at the moment. I understand the need to avoid introducing a "must have" category for a job, but introducing a "will never be used" category is not exactly a great idea either. I certainly wont be investing points in Holy Circle improvements on my other character!
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