Food For Thought

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Food for Thought
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 Phoenix.Urteil
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By Phoenix.Urteil 2013-07-21 07:38:56
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http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7864486403

Courtesy of Acslater.
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 Fairy.Spence
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By Fairy.Spence 2013-07-21 08:11:39
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Right in the feels
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 Asura.Sthrnrebel
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By Asura.Sthrnrebel 2013-07-21 08:14:30
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It's really sad that this is the state of things in FFXI as well. Before SoA, people were clearing NNI with "relic only DD" and ok, I get it. It was top tier content at the time and you wanted to bring your A game. But now, good luck getting into NNI with "just a relic". Rank 15 Delve DD ONRY!

It's rather sad the state of things these days and the shouts I see. People requiring Delve DD's to clear old content and even entry level SoA content like Outside NM's for KI's or even Plasm Farms. You have to earn plasm to buy the weapons... It's like people have forgotten what it was like to start this expansion and assume everyone is on par with them.

I wish this was a WoW-only problem, but sadly, it is not. I play League of Legends as mentioned in your post and it's really bad in there, like FFXI.
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 Cerberus.Ephexis
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By Cerberus.Ephexis 2013-07-21 08:18:41
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Unfortunately though, you can spend lots of time trying to help new people, like I've done myself. But they have to want to learn, and with FFXI people just don't seem to these days.
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By Quiznor 2013-07-21 08:19:44
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The game is a wreck. The playerbase is worse. End of story.

FFXI that is
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By sorge74 2013-07-21 08:46:56
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Asura.Sthrnrebel said: »
It's really sad that this is the state of things in FFXI as well. Before SoA, people were clearing NNI with "relic only DD" and ok, I get it. It was top tier content at the time and you wanted to bring your A game. But now, good luck getting into NNI with "just a relic". Rank 15 Delve DD ONRY!

It's rather sad the state of things these days and the shouts I see. People requiring Delve DD's to clear old content and even entry level SoA content like Outside NM's for KI's or even Plasm Farms. You have to earn plasm to buy the weapons... It's like people have forgotten what it was like to start this expansion and assume everyone is on par with them.

I wish this was a WoW-only problem, but sadly, it is not. I play League of Legends as mentioned in your post and it's really bad in there, like FFXI.

I have 2 replies to this. First I hate NNI, I'm something like 1/30 on floor 100, maybe 1/20 when rolling with delve weapons. Yesterday had a DRK with Nagan and monk with mega boss weapon. We failed twice with that set up, getting to maybe 65 both times. Then we switch in a delve beast for the DRK and got better floor jumps. And actually cleared.

I hate it cause its more about luck then gear/skill, and SE doesn't give a *** about speed hacks.The winning run was the first time I've won and was completely without hacks. I try to do runs a lot but normally I get asked if I have "powder boots". I don't care if you use speed hacks but I think they make the overall completion rate higher then it should be. Because of that SE probably thinks its balanced.

As for new or weaker players. They need to learn to gear themselves to get in that entry lvl content. Example is samurai using that Zanzhin attacks twice weapon. For some reason I see weaker players using that. Plz check AH, Tomonari much better weapon. Saw a MNK using lvl90 weapons in a delve group. Its OK to be gimp until good, but don't be uber gimp. Its an old game with tons of resources.

TLDR Speed hacks and luck win NNI, gear so less important. Stop using garbage gear when there is easy to obtain gear.
 Caitsith.Mahayaya
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By Caitsith.Mahayaya 2013-07-21 08:48:48
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Fairy.Spence said: »
Right in the feels

i know how you feel bro
 Asura.Sthrnrebel
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By Asura.Sthrnrebel 2013-07-21 08:52:40
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Oh yea, I agree NNI is more luck based than it should be, but the point is people were 15/15 NNI long before Delve was released and without using speedhack/clipping. I had a few floor 100 runs as a Hoarfrost DRK myself before I finished my Ragnarok.

But the fact remains, I cleared it using Hoarfrost. You don't need Bereaver/Senbaak or any other Delve DD required to clear. It's *mostly* about the floor jumps.

As far as the gear aspect, I agree with you entirely, there are plenty of options to avoid being uber gimp. But the problem, as I posted in another thread, it doesn't matter what level of gimp you are for most cases, people won't take you. You need a Delve to farm Delve. Derp? How are people suppose to get delve gear/weaps if people won't take people with less than Delve into the groups?

*Tested this again a couple days ago. Messaged someone looking for a T4 Foret outside that was looking for DD. Told him I was a WAR in 5/5 AF3+2 with a 95 Ragnarok and the person shouting told me no, I needed Razofury, Ixtab, or Bloodbath rank6+ and to "stop wasting his time".
 Leviathan.Draylo
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By Leviathan.Draylo 2013-07-21 08:54:00
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Quiznor said: »
The game is a wreck. The playerbase is worse. End of story.

FFXI that is

You are so bad.
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 Leviathan.Kaparu
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By Leviathan.Kaparu 2013-07-21 08:58:19
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I love it when people harp on an alleged bar-raising, particularly with regard to REM requirements, while casually ignoring that relic weapons went from taking a year or two with alliances to a month or two by a single, mediocre player.

has anyone ever been so far as to posit rational argument
 Odin.Sawtelle
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By Odin.Sawtelle 2013-07-21 08:58:52
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I try my hardest to balance being an elitist jerk and helping the community. All anyone can do!
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 Leviathan.Kaparu
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By Leviathan.Kaparu 2013-07-21 08:59:35
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And if you can't see the glaring backdoor in the, "must be delve to do delve" silliness, you should probably find a hobby that requires less thinking
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 Leviathan.Kaparu
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By Leviathan.Kaparu 2013-07-21 09:01:57
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On Wednesdays we wear support jobs
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 Asura.Sthrnrebel
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By Asura.Sthrnrebel 2013-07-21 09:06:36
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It's a shame. People coming back to the game that missed out on Abyssea and/or the start of SoA have quite a hard road to get geared up against these elitist *** refusing to let them get KIs/plasm to get caught up.
 Phoenix.Melpomenae
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By Phoenix.Melpomenae 2013-07-21 09:07:29
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I agree with some of the previous posters that it's important who those new to the game to do their own research (or ask friends, for those lucky enough to have them when they first start (but how many people are really first picking up XI in this day and age w/o connections already here?)) before they expect massive amounts of help. While I agree it's rather problematic that people are shouting for delve weapons for old *** content, it seems a lot of the time those that do that are derps anyway who think a Delve weapon will somehow win this old event without taking into consideration the skill/gear level of the players they are inviting.
While "elitism" (the pure trolling kind, not what is normally mistaken for elitism but is actually just competence) can be a problem in keeping the community going for new players, I believe the scrub-like attitude of -refusing- to take advice on how to improve gear sets (or refusing to use gear swaps in general :|) is more damaging. The newer/just took a break/casual/got left behind people would have a lot easier time banding together to clear older stuff if there wasn't so much of that laziness about gear and ignorance/idgaf about game mechanics floating around. I've gotten so much HAET before for just pointing out how "swapping gear is cool!" and "Uther's Grip is a bad choice, Mr. DRK!" and other random scenarios like that.
I have one friend who just rudely laughed at me and told me they "Didn't want to be JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE HURRDURR" so no, they're not making a idle set for their mage jobs.
It makes me wonder if the more "elite" players don't help out cause they're so used to getting that same lazy attitude whenever they try and help people. I'm sure some of them are just 2 kool fer school! and don't want to associate with the gimps, but really, you can't blame someone for getting burnt out on helping people get ***just to see them running around with this gear you helped them get totally not geared to optimise it.
I try to help as much as I can though <3
Sorry if this was TL;DR!
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 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-07-21 09:11:54
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Asura.Sthrnrebel said: »
It's a shame. People coming back to the game that missed out on Abyssea and/or the start of SoA have quite a hard road to get geared up against these elitist *** refusing to let them get KIs/plasm to get caught up.
Nobody wants to log on the game and waste time. Bringing some guy whose gear comes from 2009 is like bringing a leech. Old content is easy, you only need 2 friends to do it, get some and then come back to the endgame when you're ready. There's also ls on all servers offering services for those unable to get wins by themselves.
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 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2013-07-21 09:21:48
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This reminds me of Bluspeed. Guy *** up hella back in the day, and now nobody will invite him to anything.

He's currently wearing like...

rigor/potestas
usu+1/asperity/set ears
thaumas/melee+2/rajas/eponas
atheling/black/mani/af+2

while this is far from a perfect set, it's much better than some people I have seen in groups. Guy's been shouting 700k/member and allowing all drops freelot except for the 45 he wants from salvage for 12 hours a day to try to get sune-ate, and nobody will go with him. Instead, people who have gripes from back in the day just trash talk in shout. I'd be more than happy to bring him to a T6 so he could upgrade his weapon, but I'm sure everyone in my group would immediately rip me a new one at the very thought.

This kind of stuff is stupid. People hold grudges over the dumbest crap, and elitism in FFXI even supercedes actual DPS in many cases. I'm not going to say he hasn't done his share of idiotic things, but in the conversations I've had with him he's clearly trying to improve and he's working on the correct gear: he just can't get anywhere because nobody will group with him.

I got my rani clear in partial af3, without a brew.

I got my first nyzul 100 clears in brawny adargas and a scorpion harness, without speedhacks.

I got my first T6 clear in rigor, bereaver, rank 2 mani.

People with much better gear than this are immediately dismissed from these events, not because their DPS is inadequate, but because the leaders feel it makes their invested effort more meaningful. They want the gear they've obtained to make them special, and while that's all well and good, it's not REQUIRED to do the event and they're blocking out a huge portion of the server.

Kaparu stated a potential solution in support jobs, but that's not as much of a blanket solution as you'd think. GEO, COR, to a lesser extent BRD.. yea, you can go near-naked. However, those spots are most likely going to friends of the leader.. naked or otherwise. If you're new to the game, leveling COR or GEO won't immediately help your progress.. you need people that trust you to do them. Furthermore, many people don't enjoy support jobs.. it's a bit silly for people to do something they don't enjoy just for a vague chance at being a melee down the road.. by the time you level GEO and get into one high-end event, the rest of the melee are another tier ahead of you and you're still not melee-capable.

There are a lot of problems facing FFXI atm, and a realistic assessment cannot just wave them away like that. If someone reactivates and tries to catch up, even an intelligent player with help, they're quickly going to be overwhelmed and in many cases even their own linkshell won't let them bring their existing DD. Shout plasm is gone, not that grinding that was great to begin with.

The DEX update already made T6 a joke. August update will make it even easier, with the skill. It's still going to be just as hard to get a melee spot though, because there are many incentives by the game to bring only top tier DPS. On top of that, if we're going to look at realistic problems, a taru/mithra/hume melee will always be more of a downgrade to setup than a 20% DPS drop. That's been brought up numerous times, but SE still refuses to address it.

Quote:
Nobody wants to log on the game and waste time. Bringing some guy whose gear comes from 2009 is like bringing a leech. Old content is easy, you only need 2 friends to do it, get some and then come back to the endgame when you're ready. There's also ls on all servers offering services for those unable to get wins by themselves.
Except.. you aren't expected to have 2012 gear. You're expected to have 2013 gear. If you want to go a melee job to any modern shout, you better already have at the very least a delve weapon, your delve armor, and a lot of invested airlixirs. Don't get me started on the *** who think the fact they wasted 10m on a temporary R15 weapon means everyone else needs to, either..
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 Fairy.Spence
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By Fairy.Spence 2013-07-21 09:32:22
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I guess I never really ran with the elite crowds, but I don't remember anyone developing a reputation for just messing up. Being a total *** whiles messing up or just being a total ***, but not messing up.
 Fairy.Quiznor
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By Fairy.Quiznor 2013-07-21 09:34:24
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Fairy.Spence said: »
I guess I never really ran with the elite crowds, but I don't remember anyone developing a reputation for just messing up. Being a total *** whiles messing up or just being a total ***, but not messing up.

I remember this guy from my server actually....his name was Spence,worst player ever
 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-07-21 09:34:54
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Except.. you aren't expected to have 2012 gear. You're expected to have 2013 gear. If you want to go a melee job to any modern shout, you better already have at the very least a delve weapon, your delve armor, and a lot of invested airlixirs. Don't get me started on the *** who think the fact they wasted 10m on a temporary R15 weapon means everyone else needs to, either..
The fact that there are people who exagerate is a different matter. Those who aren't stupid know what is needed for a boss and what is sufficient for random stuff. I know I've seen people shouting for Bereaver for NNI, when it could be done with Fulgurante and Caladbolg too.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2013-07-21 09:35:30
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I wasn't on Leviathan long enough to know what the guy did wrong(force merge), but he's always been courteous and helpful to me. My impression is that once you screw up and everyone starts bitching at you, many of them in a really rude or immature way, you *** back and it snowballs from there.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2013-07-21 09:37:12
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
The fact that there are people who exagerate is a different matter. Those who aren't stupid know what is needed for a boss and what is sufficient for random stuff. I know I've seen people shouting for Bereaver for NNI, when it could be done with Fulgurante and Caladbolg too.
So, how often does your linkshell let you bring your (presumably adequately geared) DRK to T6 over the guy who's perfected it? The bar set for melee is EXTREMELY high in both pickup and linkshell events, as far as I can see.
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2013-07-21 09:42:54
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I don't think Draylo counts, since he picks every opportunity to start ***with him, even things that have literally 0 relevance to Dray. I'm not going to start a character argument on someone I haven't known as long as other people, but he's always been courteous to me, has adequate gear, is the best race, and is actively trying to get the pieces he doesn't have. I'm sure everyone on Levi has seen his salvage shouts.. seeing as they're there all day every day unless he lucks out and catches someone willing to go with him..
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 Valefor.Sehachan
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By Valefor.Sehachan 2013-07-21 09:43:43
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I consider megabosses restriction worthy. But for anything below there's stuff that suffice, and if for some reason we farm beads people who aren't usually the top tier dds are allowed to play that(within limits since everyone wants to play dd and someone has to go support..)
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2013-07-21 09:45:02
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Valefor.Sehachan said: »
(within limits since everyone wants to play dd and someone has to go support..)
highlighted the problem for you there, hun

the games design favors low melee setups(6 real melee 12 varied support, generally..) and there's no easy way for someone starting out as a melee to get to the point where they'll be worthy of a melee spot

someone who's been a melee their entire time playing that deactivated near the end of the 75 era, is likely to never reach the point where they can go melee to a serious event again
 Leviathan.Kaparu
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By Leviathan.Kaparu 2013-07-21 09:49:38
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
I don't think Draylo counts, since he picks every opportunity to start ***with him, even things that have literally 0 relevance to Dray. I'm not going to start a character argument on someone I haven't known as long as other people, but he's always been courteous to me, has adequate gear, is the best race, and is actively trying to get the pieces he doesn't have. I'm sure everyone on Levi has seen his salvage shouts.. seeing as they're there all day every day unless he lucks out and catches someone willing to go with him..

Homeboy got banned, was handed a clean slate, and somehow worked his way back to notoriety. I don't really know what else needs to be said. He may be mildly competent while wielding one of the simplest classes this simple game has to offer, but his inability to interact with other humans is not anyone else's responsibility to deal with
 Leviathan.Comeatmebro
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By Leviathan.Comeatmebro 2013-07-21 09:52:11
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Again, he's never been anything but courteous to me. I kind of doubt he's ever been rude to you, either. I've never seen him be a *** unless someone else starts ***with him first(which happens all the time, since he can't even shout without dray or someone else trying to put him down). It's the exact mentality this thread is talking about.
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 Ramuh.Austar
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By Ramuh.Austar 2013-07-21 09:52:46
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Bluspeed has no problem interacting with others. Everyone else is the one with the problem.
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 Phoenix.Melpomenae
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By Phoenix.Melpomenae 2013-07-21 09:53:31
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Leviathan.Comeatmebro said: »
Valefor.Sehachan said: »
(within limits since everyone wants to play dd and someone has to go support..)
someone who's been a melee their entire time playing that deactivated near the end of the 75 era, is likely to never reach the point where they can go melee to a serious event again

Isn't this a bit hyperbole? It would take a lot of work to get top tier enough to tag along on serious events as a melee, sure, but with gear being cycled like it is now I don't believe you're RESTRICTED FOREVER cause you took a break for a long while. Give it a few months with some luck and hard work and you shouldn't be too bad, right?
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